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  1. #221
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viled View Post
    Two things for EVERYONE to consider:

    1. When raiding was "hard" and "only 10-20% of people playing saw all the content"...WoW also had its HIGHEST SUBSCRIPTION COUNT. WoW gets easier...Subscriptions drastically go down... explain that...

    2. When WoW was in its prime (TBC) raids started easy and got progressively harder, this DIDNT DISCOURAGE people, it brought teams closer to work harder and get better. There is a reason there are so many bads in WoW these days, there is no reason for them to grow their skill of the game REGARDLESS of how much time you have to play, you can be a casual player but still make the most of your time and be a GOOD casual player.
    WoW's highest subscription numbers were in Wrath, not TBC, and Wrath was definitely a casual raiding friendly expansion with a lot more people seeing the content than ever before.
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    You may want to check your eyesight then.


    Denying people the ability to raid because you want to be special is elitism.


    But it is a small (albeit vocal) minority. Most people (including those who actually experienced BC raiding) wouldn't go back.


    The thing is, the editor decides what raiding should be, not forum posters.


    Because it was new and because other games were even more hardcore and there was no other casual MMORPGs. People simply couldn't imagine casual MMOs because such a thing did not exist.
    Flawed points

    2. Since when were they a small community? you don't know what each individual who raids thinks, just because content is cleared doesn't mean they liked the means of getting it cleared(easy,hard, normal)

    3. Editors decide? no you're quite wrong. Editors decide under the influence of numbers and complaints. Complaints tend to be louder than anything, and numbers involving people never tell you personal feelings.

    4. BC was huge not because it was it was new, it was huge from the database that played WoW vanilla, and those people liked it for that style of play not because it was the only mmorpg out there. You had games like guild wars, lineage 2(which btw was more popular overseas), eve which still had a large database, lord of the things(remember when people said it would be the WoW killer? *laughs*) etc. It was that certain style and feel for the game that people enjoyed and those people still make up a large percentage of the database. Take away the 7million players that WoW originally had, what are you left with? 3 million or if you want to count the wotlk crowd, 5million subscribers. 2 million who already quit even after the game was made casual. So you can play the number game all day but at the end of the day and this goes for me to. Just because you have numbers does not mean you know what each individual wants. It's often that the forum community crowd tend to be an extreme bunch of individuals who are louder than the rest. I 100% believe blizzard and they won't ever admit this completely gets controlled by money and masses of complaints.

  3. #223
    Herald of the Titans shroudster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disconnected View Post
    You do realize that there is a glaring flaw with your whole Ferrari analogy, right? Ferrari doesn't accommodate to lower standards because the people who do buy their products pay a premium. If you want to pay $150 a month for a sub just so raiding can go back to the way it was, that's fine with me. However, that will never happen as long as the majority of the players (read: customers who pay for development costs) aren't hardcore raiders.
    by replying in such manner you only show that you don't mind the whole quality aspect of wow going down the drain........
    15/month is also a premium knowing that other games are 60 tops with unlimited acces (often, it's changing sadly with all the dlc shit)
    So why would wow accommodate to lower standards than it's past had?
    Last edited by shroudster; 2012-09-07 at 06:19 PM.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by shroudster View Post
    no shit more are "raiding" if all you need to do nowadays is join lfr and go afk and press need when shinies drop.
    So you admit more people did not enjoy TBC raiding then?
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  5. #225
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    BC had a very high sub count that was still growing throughout the expansion despite the raiding being pretty difficult.
    Because there was no "more casual" alternative back then. It's like a 19th century peasant - he would be unable to imagine the life you're living now. But if you gave such a life style to him, he would never ever go back to his house without tap water and electricity.

    Same thing with MMOs - people were simply unable to imagine that one day, they would be able to set foot into raids. Instead they spent all BC wiping in heroics and Kara. But that could only keep people busy for so long. Hence, the model change in LK.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    People are people. You have to familiarize yourself with the idea that some people are just average at what their do. The thing is, they actually finance the content, so you have to give them LFR or they will move on. So, in order to be able to finance raids, you have to have LFR. For an HM raider, LFR will be quite optional in MOP anyway.
    Raids got financed just fine in BC/Wrath before LFR was implemented. It might be harder to go back at this point as the playerbase has changed as Blizzard has nurtured people who don't know shit about anything and given them everything that everyone else gets with none of the work required.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Because there was no "more casual" alternative back then. It's like a 19th century peasant - he would be unable to imagine the life you're living now. But if you gave such a life style to him, he would never ever go back to his house without tap water and electricity.
    Comparing lack of basic necessities in a house and content being difficult is kind of a bad comparison imo. The "more casual" option back in BC was a lower tier raid. You weren't up to speed for BT/Hyjal? You do TK or SSC. You weren't up to speed to TK or SSC? you did kara until you were. Not up to speed with kara? do heroics. Can't do heroics? do normals. Can't do normals? well I guess we have a problem.
    Last edited by Anuibus; 2012-09-07 at 06:21 PM.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    WoW's highest subscription numbers were in Wrath, not TBC, and Wrath was definitely a casual raiding friendly expansion with a lot more people seeing the content than ever before.
    Correction, WoWs highest numbers was the LAUNCH of WotLK, coming off TBC, it was mid to end WotLK that numbers began to DRASTICALLY drop

  8. #228
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    Why can't we all get along?

    I've played a few MMOs in the past year, and I still think WoW has a generally good design in that, it's highly accessbile. People have ways to get done what they would like to do, or have time to do. Many do not have those tools.

    That said, I think they just do not put out enough content for people to utilize for a monthly sub. Looking at the competition, while it's lower in sub number, the business models they bring are interesting. Catching attention of players.

    I raid, but I tell you now that I've seen what else is out there. I certainly don't feel "shackled" to WoW any longer. If something else is good and WoW doesn't have content, I'll pause my sub and move on. Its time for the player base to grow up a little. WoW isn't the only game out there, and it certainly shouldn't be taken as seriously as it seems to be in this thread. Raiding is just an aspect of the game, and it should be designed around the majority of the players.
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  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael123 View Post
    So why are beinnners and mediocre players not allowed to have a LFR and normal difficulty? Why do you insist on excluding many players from raiding? How does it affect you negatively that Joe the noob gets to raid LFR?

    How do people like you not learn to read? He stated he didnt care if people have lfr let them have it.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Yes some have been countered, does not make them right nor does it change my opinion. it is their opinion but so far has not swayed my opinion, which can be swayed, but has not been swayed. Where is something specific that speaks directly to what I originally stated in this thread?
    Well, I got to agree with you there, I was just a little sad noone answered to my posts despite having some good points^^

    I'm a little too lazy atm to actually look for answers for you.

    On the other hand, people need to realize that Blizzard aren't a bunch of retards not knowing what they are doing. They have the numbers, they know what the silent majority does/wants (more or less, those two things are almost the same). Obviously, they listened too much to the vocal minority (forum posters) in cata, thus resulting in drops (which is just a single of multiple reasons why cata subs declined). If they would think that a TBC-like raiding model would benefit the game, they would go for it. They don't think so and will probably never reconsider that.

  11. #231
    Herald of the Titans shroudster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    So you admit more people did not enjoy TBC raiding then?
    im saying the whole concept of raiding has taken a severe turn for the worst, please tell me where i said tbc raiding was bad?

  12. #232
    There is a few fundamental problems with many of the arguments that dispute what I am saying.

    This is nothing, zero, zilch about elitism. That keeps being brought up by people who cannot fathom the original point. There is a choice I suppose and i will try to be clear with out (hopefully) sounding like an asshole.

    1. Want to raid? Then raid. Not what is is turning or turned into. I mean raid.

    2. Do not raid if you want to change it to suite your life style from what the concept used to be and what people loved. If you cant raid properly, then don't.

    3. I wanted raiding back, for raiders.

    4. I clearly stated BC raiding, it worked and was popular. The numbers in WOTLK was directly influenced by BC.

    5. if you wan't to raid half-assed, then don't do it and and quit ruining it and the whole vibe it used to be. Do something else.

    I will explain what raiding should be and used to be later on. (prob edit original post and add it in the bottom) ..if people want to see exactly what I mean.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    WoW's highest subscription numbers were in Wrath, not TBC, and Wrath was definitely a casual raiding friendly expansion with a lot more people seeing the content than ever before.
    I think what he meant to say was the game had a larger database of Initial players before wotlk. WoW went from 7million to 12million. That's 5 million extra subscribers and 5 million more people to complain. But assume that 7million of those initial subscribers never really cared about difficulty of raids and you're basically left with 5 million people who do complain an awful lot.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiry View Post
    Why can't we all get along?

    I've played a few MMOs in the past year, and I still think WoW has a generally good design in that, it's highly accessbile. People have ways to get done what they would like to do, or have time to do. Many do not have those tools.

    That said, I think they just do not put out enough content for people to utilize for a monthly sub. Looking at the competition, while it's lower in sub number, the business models they bring are interesting. Catching attention of players.

    I raid, but I tell you now that I've seen what else is out there. I certainly don't feel "shackled" to WoW any longer. If something else is good and WoW doesn't have content, I'll pause my sub and move on. Its time for the player base to grow up a little. WoW isn't the only game out there, and it certainly shouldn't be taken as seriously as it seems to be in this thread. Raiding is just an aspect of the game, and it should be designed around the majority of the players.
    No..raiding should be done properly, and when it was done properly it was wildy popular.

  15. #235
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    2. Since when were they a small community? you don't know what each individual who raids thinks, just because content is cleared doesn't mean they liked the means of getting it cleared(easy,hard, normal)
    There is a thing called statistics. We know how many people killed say KJ before LK hit, and we can compare the number to total lvl 70 population. This operation can be performed by a 8 year old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    3. Editors decide? no you're quite wrong. Editors decide under the influence of numbers and complaints. Complaints tend to be louder than anything, and numbers involving people never tell you personal feelings.
    Yes, and the numbers at the end of BC told them that something was wrong with their model, because most people never saw any other raid other than Kara, or none at all. And that continuing to invest loads of money for just a few percent of WoW population is not defensible from any point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    You had games like guild wars, lineage 2(which btw was more popular overseas), eve which still had a large database, lord of the things(remember when people said it would be the WoW killer? *laughs*) etc.
    Eve never ever had big numbers by definition (it is a niche game). All other MMOs were more hardcore (especially LA2).

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by shroudster View Post
    by replying in such manner you only show that you don't mind the whole quality aspect of wow going down the drain........
    15/month is also a premium knowing that other games are 60 tops with unlimited acces (often, it's changing sadly with all the dlc shit)
    So why would wow accommodate to lower standards than it's past had?
    Are you dense or are you just completely ignoring the point of my post? $15 is not a premium for an MMO. Your comparison to games that cost $60 is invalid because those games are not constantly updated with new content. Yes, you have unlimited access to a PS3/360 game you just purchased but honestly, how much time will you really invest into any of them, 100 days /played? Unlikely.

  17. #237
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroudster View Post
    well im sure you have seen your fair share of people and thought how the hell did he even reach lvl 85
    lol yep....
    had a hunter in old guild. the guy had a heart of gold.. he knew lick about his class. We dragged him along in icc.. And we had to tell him every single week not to roll on the caster gear and weaps. His addon told him when there was a stat upgrade, so he just rolled. lol
    On Dreamwalker I put up a marker for him where to stand once we pulled... What did he do, he ran to the marker the moment it was up, wiping us, of course.
    Good times, because we actually had a blast with his mishaps. There was something to laugh about every time. The best one was when I told him to stand in the middle of the room, and spam Serpent sting on the Lich King in TOC, to make absolutely sure he hits him before the LK bubbles..
    When the floor broke away we blamed him for missing the shot wiping us. He bought it, and apologized big time, until everyone couldn't be serious anymore rofl.
    Was a grown up man, he just couldn't wrap his mind around the basics. otherwise actually quite smart.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by naimc View Post
    You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.
    And I dont understand the mentality of people like YOU who think just because you shell out 15 bucks a month it makes you automatically entitled to everything. "Elitists" is a cliched phrase along with 'special snowflake" from people like yourself who have zero hand eye coordination, slow reaction times, and just generally suck at the game. I live in Las Vegas and do jiu jitsu here under a guy named Marc Laimon. I pay a fee every month to learn it. It is completely voluntary that I pay it and take it, just like its COMPLETELY voluntary you pay for Wow and play it. But jsut because I pay that fee, doesnt mean I should get rewarded my next belt for absofuckinglutely no reason. So what if some people want more of a challenge out of things in life? It gives you no right WHATSOEVER to call them "elitists" just because they dont suck at the game. People like you need to learn to play, grow up, and take yourself off of your self righteous self entitled thrones. You arent owed anything just because you pay 15 bucks a month. If anyone are the "elitists" its gamers with YOUR mindset, you think youre entitled to have everything handed JUST because "I pay 15 bucks a month!" or "dont have time" for raiding.

  19. #239
    Herald of the Titans shroudster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disconnected View Post
    Are you dense or are you just completely ignoring the point of my post? $15 is not a premium for an MMO. Your comparison to games that cost $60 is invalid because those games are not constantly updated with new content. Yes, you have unlimited access to a PS3/360 game you just purchased but honestly, how much time will you really invest into any of them, 100 days /played? Unlikely.
    i raise you skyrim/elder scrolls

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Disconnected View Post
    Your comparison to games that cost $60 is invalid because those games are not constantly updated with new content. Yes, you have unlimited access to a PS3/360 game you just purchased but honestly, how much time will you really invest into any of them, 100 days /played? Unlikely.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/reddragonknight/
    1942 hours in css. Some games actually do get supported, either by the developer or the community(or both), and trying to say that just because it doesn't have a sub means you won't have 100 days played is a faulty assumption.

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