I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Cheekin]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

I was casual back in Vanilla and haven't progress more than clearing MC and ZG. And I didn't whine because I couldn't go to AQ or Naxx. It was nice to have always some goal. No goals, no passion.

[rewn]

1 word...... raiding exhaustion its not about the lvl of difficulti... its about the gear and if you want to do mediocre og hc raiding, then you need to go through the lower tier before you can do that, and then raiding just becomes a boring duty

---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 04:15 PM ----------



things were like that for about 2 years with vanilla and TBC, and that went pretty well. think at the end of TBC, they had more subs then ever

To your first point. Any semi decent "hardcore raider" is doing heroics the week after they first clear normal. So if they are getting "raiding exhaustion" as you put it, they'd have it even worse with a single tier of raiding.

Second point. The highest sub peak was at the end of Wrath, not BC, i.e. when they made raiding available to the masses instead of the minority.

[Wilderness]

There is no reason to limit and restrict content like that. Its simply a bad business move.

The current set-up works best for both Blizzard and raiders of any level. Top raiders clear things before the nerfs, and get all the shiny stuff long before everyone else. Decent raiders get there after some time of gearing up and possibly a bit of nerfing as well. Raiders with less skill or less time take longer. Plenty of raiders never do manage to down everything, even with larger nerfs. It works for everyone.

If you want to ask for a better difficulty curve in upcoming raids, I'm all for that. As much as I loved H Rag, it was a giant step above the first 6, and I would have much preferred to have a more linear curve of difficulty. There was a bit of a better curve in DS, but still not as much as I'd have liked. I'm all for a better, more linear difficulty curve - but going back to a TBC style raid system is a bad idea.

A true raider should be happy with how things are because Blizzard can make some truly difficult and challenging bosses, knowing that people will be able to kill them in LFR/normal, as well as with nerfs later on. If you go back to one raid then you only have 2 approaches, both of which are bad. The first is that you keep making fights harder and harder as you progress, but then you have a lot of raiders who hit a wall along the way and quit. Or you have fights which are made too easy and a lot of the best raiders find little to no challenge. Both of those are bad situations for Blizzard and for the game.

---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 12:20 PM ----------

things were like that for about 2 years with vanilla and TBC, and that went pretty well. think at the end of TBC, they had more subs then ever

What does the number of subs have to do with the raiding style? Sure, you could argue there was a bit of a correlation, but not a whole lot as the raiding population has always been a rather small subset of the general WoW population.

[Tyrven]

When were raids taken from raiders? More ppl being able to see a watered down version doesn't mean the ppl that progress faster or play more had something taken away from them. Time and time again the only ppl that seem to care about this are average raiders that spend far too much time in there. A nerf happens and they are passed up by another poor raid so they cry to the high heavens. I assure you Vodka doesn't care what some world 100 guild is doing, these should be the same with some server 1st being concerned with what a server 10th is doing and often is.

[vesseblah]

Give the raid back to the raiders. The others can have

Never gonna happen, because raiders are tiny minority in this game.

There's less than 100k players (below 1% of all subscribers) who ever even try heroic raids unnerfed. Blizzard can and will not spend development time for features that less than 1% of players would ever touch. Common sense should say this much to you already.

You should be happy that Blizzard added two easy modes into raids, because if it was technically impossible, they would have nerfed all raids to LFR level years ago so that majority of players can actually do those.

[McNeil]

The actual hardcore raiders are in the vast minority, and I doubt WoW currently even has many hardcore raiding guilds. Atleast not as much as before.

[Abysmo3420]

I find it pathetic that Blizz feels they need to dumb down content for the majority. If you can't play the game, don't play the game. Its as simple as that. You NEVER saw developers release new versions of any game that was easier for the people who had difficulties beating it. I think the platform that the game gets progressively harder as you get to the end is superior to one flat difficulty or multiple difficulties. That is how raids should be. In another defense of returning raiding to what it should be, pvp. I don't get 3000 rating handed to me. In fact VERY few see 2400 rating. Why don't we start off with 2000 rating. Everyone should be able to see all of the content we payed for. Im tired of paying a sub for people to see 3000 rating when I dont. In fact give me every mount, pet, achiev, title, piece of gear, take restrictions off gear, so I can evenly enjoy every part of the game im paying for.

[Grogo]

So, here's the thing about "Giving the Raids back to the raiders". Should that happen, the "raiders" (as stated by Blizzard) would get even less content than they do now, because they are no longer going to devote more resources to something that 5% of their playerbase is going to experience. Second, the BC model was only better to Raiders because they didn't have to deal with all the downsides that it came with, they were already raiders. So, what you're suggesting is that no one that doesn't already raid should be allowed to without having to jump through so many pointless hoops that isn't worth it anyway. Good call. Third, using the "there's plenty of stuff for casuals to do" argument is rather short sighted and inconsiderate (big surprise, coming from a raider), since casuals get tired of that content same as raiders get tired of their raids. Fourth, raiding hasn't been taken away from anyone, including the raiders. You still have raids, they still have hard modes, and generally there are still just as many bosses to kill in them as there was in BC. So, you're not even making a logically compelling point, you're literally just whining about the fact that you're not as special as you used to be. Bottom Line: You haven't lost anything, nothing has been taken away from you except for the fact that you can no longer stand around and pretend that everyone cares about how awesome your gear is. That's it. So, if you're going to say something like "Please read this with an open mind geared toward discussion" while actually meaning "Please read this with a mind geared toward what I'm saying because I in fact don't even have an open mind myself", at least be honest about it and not try to hide the fact that your argument is inherently a selfish request.

Think Burning Crusade, it got progressively difficult as you progressed through the content. People loved BC, that is one of the reasons. No re-hashed heroic boss. The numbers after BC were stellar. It's raiding...do it right or do not do it at all. You are only short changing yourself.

[vesseblah]

I find it pathetic that Blizz feels they need to dumb down content for the majority. If you can't play the game, don't play the game. Its as simple as that.

One day you'll understand the business logic behind it. Until then:

"If you don't want to play the dumbed-down game, don't play the dumbed-down game. It's as simple as that."

Think Burning Crusade, it got progressively difficult as you progressed through the content. People loved BC, that is one of the reasons.

People loved TBC because it was easier than vanilla. And people loved WLK even more for the same reason.

[Lockrocker75]

Okay. WoW is more then a game. It's a COMPANY'S product. Which means it is trying to be SOLD to as MANY people as possible. A company looks for as MANY WAYS to SELL the product as possible. Companies look into the future, not the past. The TBC raid models worked for then, I guarantee you they wouldn't work now. Blizzard is wanting to pull in as many people with the new set up, giving EVERYONE a chance to experience the end game content. Not everyone has the time to wait for pugs to get formed, or has a schedule to allow them to raid with a guild. It's called real life. Blizzard understands that, and is trying to accommodate to as many subscribers as possible. If you feel content with just doing regular raids, then don't do the LFR or heroic modes. It's a choice you make, and I guarantee you have used the LFR on many occasions and tried out heroics at least once, or twice. With that, quit QQ'ing about raids, and enjoy the game.

[Tucows]

I find it pathetic that Blizz feels they need to dumb down content for the majority. If you can't play the game, don't play the game. Its as simple as that. You NEVER saw developers release new versions of any game that was easier for the people who had difficulties beating it. I think the platform that the game gets progressively harder as you get to the end is superior to one flat difficulty or multiple difficulties. That is how raids should be. In another defense of returning raiding to what it should be, pvp. I don't get 3000 rating handed to me. In fact VERY few see 2400 rating. Why don't we start off with 2000 rating. Everyone should be able to see all of the content we payed for. Im tired of paying a sub for people to see 3000 rating when I dont. In fact give me every mount, pet, achiev, title, piece of gear, take restrictions off gear, so I can evenly enjoy every part of the game im paying for.

Actually most games outside of mmo's have multiple difficulties (easy, normal, hard, etc).

[Smeaky]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

Naimc the problem is that blizzard reduce raids to such versions that there is no goal anymore. Its only server first etc, in tbc you progressed from easy to harder raids but these days its everyone straight to the new raid. There is no excitement in that its just plainly stupid.

[Ludacritts]

We already get titles/mounts that you can only get in heroic raids, why take normal raids from everyone else? Heroic modes are still hard even if they are "just the same fight with 1 more mechanic". Most of the "casuals" won't ever complete a heroic raid anyway so what's the big deal? Get over yourself.

[Dedweight]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

And I'm tired of this attitude that you're portraying, makes me think all "casuals" are just self entitled because they pay to play the game. Your 15$ a month simply entitles you to the ability to access the content for the given expansion tier tied to your account very rarely anything more. If you want to see the content you should work for it, if you don't want to work for it you probably didn't really want to see it anyway.

People loved TBC because it was easier than vanilla. And people loved WLK even more for the same reason.

Maybe in the sense that you didn't need to rely on 39 other people to show up to raid.

[grisset]

We're doing the Apartheit thing now? Cool. In that case:

Give dailies and leveling content back to the casuals. Raiders have enough fun already! I don't care how they get to 90... Maybe give them 20 million boars to farm! And then they get to raid with whatever equip they had left lying around. "Welfare epics" from reputation grinds are casual and 5-mans are for them too, remember?

Also: Separate (but equal) drinking fountains.

This post makes me giggle. It's also spot on.

Relevant sig is relevant.

[Tyrven]

i dont think that neither of the two posts above you are elite raiders, they are just 20:00 to 24:00 raiders who wants the titel of raider back its nice to feel like you are in a special group when you are a raider

If you want to feel special about something you are doing a video game is the wrong place for that. Get out and actually do something special not spend a lot of time killing pixels so you can stand around with some shinny new wpns and be filled with a false sense of pride. Way too many ppl validate themselves with what they do or don't have in a game. Somebody that wants their old titles or gear to mean something so they can stand around new players in town and show off is like a 30 year old wearing his state champion jersey from highschool down at the gym. Enjoy what you are doing now and move on.

[Grogo]

Never gonna happen, because raiders are tiny minority in this game.

There's less than 100k players (below 1% of all subscribers) who ever even try heroic raids unnerfed. Blizzard can and will not spend development time for features that less than 1% of players would ever touch. Common sense should say this much to you already.

You should be happy that Blizzard added two easy modes into raids, because if it was technically impossible, they would have nerfed all raids to LFR level years ago so that majority of players can actually do those.

I call bullshit on raiders being a tiny minority. Let's say it is true...then give us back raiding, the real vibe of it...not some strained version of raid-lite.

BC tells a diff story, it worked like a dream then and it can now. Don't raid if you dont want to but why do people insist on ruining it for others?

[Bairne]

I don't even see normal mode as content, its just something you do week one of the tier and then never go back. As far as I'm concerned heroic mode is the only 'real raiding' and everyone else gets to play around in the joke content.

Everyone wins, well except those who only derive joy from epeening.

I agree with this. There is no reason to remove the easier content. If you are in a guild capable of clearly the heroic content then that is for you. The guilds who raid less or aren't as good can clear the normal content with a few heroics after nerfs and people that can't stick to raiding schedules or don't want to can do lfr.

I just don't understand why people complain about there being easier content available to others when they still have the heroic difficulty content to challenge them. The real complaint shouldn't be that there is easier content for more casual players, it should be that there isn't enough content of the heroic difficulty. Considering there will be 16 raid bosses in the first month of MoP that complaint has been answered.

[muchtoohigh]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

Except you have the same mentality. Selfish and oblivious. YOU want the game catered to YOU at the expense of 'elitist'. By your failed logic, if ALL players should be able to experience all the content how they want to, then the elitist are getting screwed and therefore the game should make changes to appease them, right?

[Grogo]

If you want to feel special about something you are doing a video game is the wrong place for that. Get out and actually do something special not spend a lot of time killing pixels so you can stand around with some shinny new wpns and be filled with a false sense of pride. Way too many ppl validate themselves with what they do or don't have in a game. Somebody that wants their old titles or gear to mean something so they can stand around new players in town and show off is like a 30 year old wearing his state champion jersey from highschool down at the gym. Enjoy what you are doing now and move on.

I already said give you the same gear in 5 mans. I am not trying to make you feel like that dude in comic book adds that has sand kicked on them on the beach. But remember, he came back a raider and kicked that guy's ass.