1. #1021
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    I think if you have cleared normal you should not be able to q LFR on that toon. My special beef is with with hardcore raiders doing LFR and qq'ing about what a mess it is.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  2. #1022
    Field Marshal Hezlek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razski View Post
    I'm a hardcore raider, and I disagree with the OP on all points.

    You do not speak for all the raiders out there.
    Yep, pretty much this.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 10:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dch48 View Post
    Even to this date I have not seen any raiding content that was "faceroll" on the normal difficulty setting..
    not sure if serious or trolling
    Elemental - Dragonslayer, Firelord, Savior, Delver

  3. #1023
    Meh seems like a pretty standard 'I've read a few threads from people QQing about casuals and I agree with it so everyone who really raids shares my opinion' post.

    I raid 3 hours a day 4 days a week. I still don't consider myself hardcore but I certainly consider myself a raider. I raid, I want the content and I want the challenge for myself. Couldn't give a damn about whether others get to complete it months after I do for any number of reasons.

    The OP harps on about what is and what isn't 'actual' raiding and plenty of people like trying to slap labels on people simply because we have some overwhelming desire to put people into nice tidy boxes. Simply being in one box doesn't mean your able to speak for that box in the assumption they all agree with your thoughts.

    Personally I love what I'm hearing from the Dev's and the potential I see for future content. I would like to see each raid mode implemented and left alone for ever more. LFR for people who may have less skill and/or time to enjoy content. Normal modes for those that went a more organized environment and Heroic for the higher tier players to enjoy their challenge and get involved with progress races.

    If we start preventing players from moving up from one tier to the other how will we ever be able to replace players. I had a vague interest in raiding back in WOTLK and I did PuGs as it seemed like a fun thing to do. When Cata hit I decided I wanted to raid more so got involved with more PuG's and from there I've moved on to being the GM of a fairly decent guild (HC Madness at 10%). If I hadn't been afforded those opportunities I would never have known how much I enjoyed raiding and what my own skill level could be.

    There should be no reason for anyone to be excluded from something just because they don't fit into a specific set of ideals. Most people what want to experience a specific level of content will naturally fall into that mindset anyway for the most part, but that is a natural progression, not something artificially forced upon them.


    The sooner everyone stops trying to dictate the way others play or what they should be 'allowed' to see the better off the entire community will be.


  4. #1024
    The TBC model sucked because it encouraged rampant guild hopping. I don't see what's so cooperative about that.

    LFR is raiding to some people and that is a legitimate way to think.

    That's all I wanted to say.

  5. #1025
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    It's refreshing to see people who consider themselves raiders and hardcore stepping up to voice their support (or even indifference) to LFR. Just as I've been trying to convince people that it isn't only "bads" who use LFR, I like seeing that there are raiders and hardcores out there that aren't elitists who just want to ruin other peoples' fun. Faith in the community = restored.

  6. #1026
    Stood in the Fire Centerra's Avatar
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    TBH, this demand was relavant in wrath. It's over, the casuals won.

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Woozle View Post
    It's refreshing to see people who consider themselves raiders and hardcore stepping up to voice their support (or even indifference) to LFR. Just as I've been trying to convince people that it isn't only "bads" who use LFR, I like seeing that there are raiders and hardcores out there that aren't elitists who just want to ruin other peoples' fun. Faith in the community = restored.
    Truth be told I don't like LFR all that much. Only ran it a few times early on. I just prefer to do guild raids for the most part. The only thing I don't like about it is it's ability to attract trolls. Those guys who purposely kill all the corruptions on LFR Spine, for instance.

    That said, I have no problem with LFR being in the game, and I'm glad there are people out there having fun with it.

  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by Tracey469 View Post
    Yeah right, let's sink huge amounts of money developping stuff that only a minority can see. That will provide a huge ROI.
    I think people like you have been tricked by blizzard into believing the community that want's difficult raids a minority. This issue has been an issue since the beginning of wotlk, if it were truly a minority then the by now they would have all mostly settled and quiet down about this issue. I can understand why you believe this but i'm pretty sure there are quite a large group of players who want the game to be back to progressive hard content.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    I think people like you have been tricked by blizzard into believing the community that want's difficult raids a minority.
    There is no need to trick us into believing blatantly obvious truths.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  10. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    I think people like you have been tricked by blizzard into believing the community that want's difficult raids a minority. This issue has been an issue since the beginning of wotlk, if it were truly a minority then the by now they would have all mostly settled and quiet down about this issue. I can understand why you believe this but i'm pretty sure there are quite a large group of players who want the game to be back to progressive hard content.
    Now this kind of discussion is going on for quite a while now... So i finally can't resist typing smth. in one of those 2 billion threads crying for harder content.
    In fact i am raiding in top 50 world ranks since bc, more recently even about top 20 within cataclysm, but i keep asking myself - what game are you playing?

    True, content is accessible by anyone now. Thus i quite agree with the deminished feeling of accomplishment in any semi-pro guild that doesnt compete for world ranks only whatsoever. The "reward" of progressing through content just felt more epic back in the days with it granting the priviledge of being the only one that got to enjoy everything the game had to offer.

    Still i cant grasp the idea of the overall difficulty in WoW deminishing... (which means WITHIN the content that really matters for "hardcore" raiders). No freakin' fight in all of Vanilla and BC can still compete in difficulty to what blizz is shooting at us by now.
    The maximum complexity within an encounter just increases constantly. Try compare T11/T12/T13 content to T4/T5/T6 or even Sunwell content where raiding was at its peak for some of you guys - and then start reflecting on the truth.

    In fact its overall players getting better, hardcore guilds getting all the more hardcore and still world-first-progress takes 10+ times longer than back in the days (and by time i don't refer to how long a boss remained undefeated - i refer to how much playtime world's best players did put into defeating an encounter or content respectively).
    Easier? I don't think so....
    Last edited by Legacy; 2012-09-12 at 06:28 AM.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    Why do we need to be in hardcore guilds to get "prestige"? What we want also is that that journey that makes it feel like a worthwhile game to play. Also if that's their approach on appeasing everyone then obviously they have completely given up on the community that likes to actually do a real raid. I mean come on how ridiculous is that? you get help from the developers because we're too pathetic to try and do it on our own, so they give you a buff to help you win. Also fuck feats of strength, that stupid feat is not what we want.
    If you want to work hard on content that isn't nerfed then beat it before the nerf. Or turn off the buff. If you can't beat it before the nerfs then too bad, you weren't good enough. If you don't turn off the buff then... what can I even say about that? If you say you want to do a raid without assistance and then refuse to turn off the buff you're just clearly full of crap.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 06:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by jazen View Post
    I think if you have cleared normal you should not be able to q LFR on that toon. My special beef is with with hardcore raiders doing LFR and qq'ing about what a mess it is.
    If any "hardcore raiders" do LFR for more than 2-3 weeks max, I call BS on them being "hardcore raiders".

    Also if you take a hardcore raid team to LFR you'd annihilate the place in like 20 minutes. So who cares?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 06:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Centerra View Post
    TBH, this demand was relavant in wrath. It's over, the casuals won.
    It was never relevant. The fact that "casuals" couldn't raid was a design flaw, it's just that DS fixed it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 06:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibzombie View Post
    I love that setup. Unless you were in the very high end guilds, you never ran out of content. The whole experience felt a lot more rewarding. I see a lot of people saying this would screw casuals? Casuals got to do plenty of raiding in BC. Bads were the ones who couldn't, at least not much. But last I heard, most of the people who played in BC/vanilla are no longer subbed. So the majority of the people playing now never experienced this model.
    Do you really think people would on the whole feel more rewarded if they'd spent all of DS stuck on Hagara? As in, literally could not beat Hagara and even see the other bosses on any difficulty, for the entire expansion.

    Sounds like an absolutely terrible design to me. And I've been 8/8hm and full BiS for like forever.

  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    This might be a little off-topic but I kinda want 40 man raids again ._.

    I know they were a pain in the ass to organize but... It was just so cool having 40 people duking it out at a giant monster! Even though caster basically had to resort to wands half the time :/ But things have changed mana-wise.
    Dress up AQ40, raise it up to level 90 and drop it into LFR. Would be awesome. Exciting, entertaining, tragic and everything else at once. I'd probably pay to watch to be honest. But it would be awesome to do.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    There is no need to trick us into believing blatantly obvious truths.
    Yes because the truth is so obvious with this one, you still have millions of people bitching about raiding is not as good as it used to be yet here you are stating that those millions are a minority. OH YEAH IT'S THE TRUTH ALL RIGHT only because i said so*sarcasm* that's what you sound like

    Quote Originally Posted by Legacy View Post
    Now this kind of discussion is going on for quite a while now... So i finally can't resist typing smth. in one of those 2 billion threads crying for harder content.
    In fact i am raiding in top 50 world ranks since bc, more recently even about top 20 within cataclysm, but i keep asking myself - what game are you playing?

    True, content is accessible by anyone now. Thus i quite agree with the deminished feeling of accomplishment in any semi-pro guild that doesnt compete for world ranks only whatsoever. The "reward" of progressing through content just felt more epic back in the days with it granting the priviledge of being the only one that got to enjoy everything the game had to offer.

    Still i cant grasp the idea of the overall difficulty in WoW deminishing... (which means WITHIN the content that really matters for "hardcore" raiders). No freakin' fight in all of Vanilla and BC can still compete in difficulty to what blizz is shooting at us by now.
    The maximum complexity within an encounter just increases constantly. Try compare T11/T12/T13 content to T4/T5/T6 or even Sunwell content where raiding was at its peak for some of you guys - and then start reflecting on the truth.

    In fact its overall players getting better, hardcore guilds getting all the more hardcore and still world-first-progress takes 10+ times longer than back in the days (and by time i don't refer to how long a boss remained undefeated - i refer to how much playtime world's best players did put into defeating an encounter or content respectively).
    Easier? I don't think so....
    The content is easier, you get a few bosses that are actually difficult and use them to generalize the fact that the content overall is harder? That's fail logic right there. BC you had a few easy bosses but the overall progression made content feel progressively challenging because they ramped up the challenge every time you got further where as you will get everything now on either retard level easy with only 1 boss being hard or you get all bosses easy mode until you hit heroic. When you hit heroic mode the funny thing is some bosses are easier than others when you on heroic setting which made it feel random instead of epic journey. I can name many bosses from the entire cata expansion that did this. Firelands for example, majordomo, alysrazor, shannox, these were jokes if you want me to go on to the other raids i will but i think the point is clear enough. The fact of the matter is raiding used to be an epic journey, now it's not and will probably never be like this again because of the direction they took for raids.

    If you want to work hard on content that isn't nerfed then beat it before the nerf. Or turn off the buff. If you can't beat it before the nerfs then too bad, you weren't good enough. If you don't turn off the buff then... what can I even say about that? If you say you want to do a raid without assistance and then refuse to turn off the buff you're just clearly full of crap.
    What you're saying is clearly a fail argument, There is A. never a need to nerf content unless the bug inhibits you from doing them. IE wrongly tuned, if the boss is doable with high numbers then leave it and let the people learn how to raid. So why on earth would you bother to nerf something just because people need to learn how to play better? that isn't a promotion of skill it's just a freebie. Also to rationalize whether or not to turn on or off a buff is quite possibly the worst argument in your arsenal. There should never be a need to buff raiders through content, you're only digging your own grave deeper when you promote players getting worse and worse. You can however do it when the expansion is about to end and want everything to just see everything before it's obsolete, that actually works a lot better. For the record i obviously opt to turn off the buff if i raid but it poses the question, what possible reason is there to give players a handicap? I thought blizzard wanted their raids to feel and be epic when clearly their actions are not promoting this. I complain about this system because they are going to introduce this into pandaria right from the start incase you argue that they only gave the buff because they are trying to push us through the last of the content before expansion.
    Last edited by Dylamoo; 2012-09-12 at 07:13 AM.

  14. #1034
    what the hell is your problem OP ?
    too many ppl can raid now and go around with the same gear model as you?

    what is exactly bothering you?
    -the fact that you just cant stand still in the middle of ogg with your mount and gear as if AFKing waiting to see how ppl admire you anymore?

    you wana raid ? you wana raid hardcore? go ahead, whos stopping you?

    the real problem is your massive ego and arrogance that let you think that raiding is exclusively yours, here is a little truth, EVERYONE wants to raid!! yes! thats it,
    problem is many of the players dont have time so now they can raid extra easy with the tool called LFR..they dont complain, but YOU are!
    and why?
    cause you get to hop the LFR of a new raid as soon as you get on line after patch day to get your EGO fueled with new gear , you cant even wait untill that evening when your own guild start raiding and then you complain its boring and you feel burnt out.

    arrogant self centered egocentric ppl like you makes the majority of the guild masters and raid leaders now days and for that im glad blizz came out with LFR tool to get rid of guilds made of ppl like you.

    if there is a real reason guilds broke down from 40 to 10 , thats the reason! ppl like you and complains like these, stick your nose in your own heroics and leave the rest alone.

    soon enough wow's raiding concept will be like diablo's: you VS the boss and trash cause the majority of the raiders and guild in wow now are so corrupted and not worth a spit.

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    What you're saying is clearly a fail argument, There is A. never a need to nerf content unless the bug inhibits you from doing them. IE wrongly tuned, if the boss is doable with high numbers then leave it and let the people learn how to raid. So why on earth would you bother to nerf something just because people need to learn how to play better? that isn't a promotion of skill it's just a freebie. Also to rationalize whether or not to turn on or off a buff is quite possibly the worst argument in your arsenal. There should never be a need to buff raiders through content, you're only digging your own grave deeper when you promote players getting worse and worse. You can however do it when the expansion is about to end and want everything to just see everything before it's obsolete, that actually works a lot better. For the record i obviously opt to turn off the buff if i raid but it poses the question, what possible reason is there to give players a handicap? I thought blizzard wanted their raids to feel and be epic when clearly their actions are not promoting this. I complain about this system because they are going to introduce this into pandaria right from the start incase you argue that they only gave the buff because they are trying to push us through the last of the content before expansion.
    They nerf content when everyone who cares about doing it while it is hard has finished.

    "i obviously opt to turn off the buff if i raid" - from this statement I kind of get the impression you don't raid at all.

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    They nerf content when everyone who cares about doing it while it is hard has finished.

    "i obviously opt to turn off the buff if i raid" - from this statement I kind of get the impression you don't raid at all.
    I am a raid leader and choose to turn off the buff for the raid. My guild is actually debating if we want to continue since this game is getting more and more boring for them since the beginning of the expansion we've complained that content has been lacking since wotlk. This saddens me and it's all because of a poor choice that blizzard made for the long run. we've gamed with each other for 11 long years and played WoW since the beginning.

  17. #1037
    arrogant self centered egocentric ppl like you makes the majority of the guild masters and raid leaders now days and for that im glad blizz came out with LFR tool to get rid of guilds made of ppl like you.
    Calling hardcore guilds arrogant and self centered when the noobness and shortness of the game ending it in the near future is kind of hypocritical. Once the hardcore guilds are gone, the game will lose its appeal and no one will play it anymore, not even scrubs, simply because they were too self centered to realize that having difficult things to work towards and nearly endless grinds were the POINT of the game.

  18. #1038
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    The content is easier, you get a few bosses that are actually difficult and use them to generalize the fact that the content overall is harder? That's fail logic right there. BC you had a few easy bosses but the overall progression made content feel progressively challenging because they ramped up the challenge every time you got further
    Speaking of fail logic, namely yours.. We must've been playing totally different game in TBC because after you killed Vashj and Kael, whole fucking Hyjal until Archimonde was pretty much faceroll and trash being harder than bosses, as was first five bosses in Black Temple. Those were far far easier than Vashj/Kael pair, and there was no sense of any kind of progressively challenging content whatsoever. Just easy easy bosses you get as free loot rewards after passing the braindead attunement shit.

    After T6 attunement was dropped, every single realm exploded with 3/4 + 5/6 guilds going for 3/5 MH 3/9 BT within week. Some of those guilds killed Illidan before Kael'thas in my realm.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  19. #1039
    I propose that everyone who didn't kill H Madness before the 5% nerf just quit the game. Then we'll see how much time and effort Blizzard puts into the next raid when only the deserving few remain.

    That should take us down to, what? 10k subscribers?

  20. #1040
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Speaking of fail logic, namely yours.. We must've been playing totally different game in TBC because after you killed Vashj and Kael, whole fucking Hyjal until Archimonde was pretty much faceroll and trash being harder than bosses, as was first five bosses in Black Temple. Those were far far easier than Vashj/Kael pair, and there was no sense of any kind of progressively challenging content whatsoever. Just easy easy bosses you get as free loot rewards after passing the braindead attunement shit.
    You seem to have some fundamental misconceptions about how the TBC raiding model worked. First of all, MH trash was not "harder than bosses". MH "trash" was part of the boss encounter, fighting the actual boss was just the last phase of the encounters, you may or may not like that design but that's how it was. Second, the progressive difficulty was per tier. First BT bosses were explicitly designed to be free loot rewards for getting Vashj+Kael down, after which the difficulty ramped up. If you stop and think about it for a second, that's the only way it can work. They can't keep increasing difficulty indefinitely, but they can have increasing difficulty inside a tier.

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