1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    You seem to have some fundamental misconceptions about how the TBC raiding model worked.
    You seem to have some fundamental misconceptions about how discussion forums work.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    Second, the progressive difficulty was per tier. First BT bosses were explicitly designed to be free loot rewards for getting Vashj+Kael down, after which the difficulty ramped up.
    Dylanmoo did broad generalization of how TBC bosses were all hard and that the difficulty ramped up during the expansion, which I both disproved quite easily. And now you're here with nice strawman argument that TBC difficulty didn't actually ramp up inside expansion but inside tiers and that it was me who's wrong, not Dylanmoo.

    The core point is that not all TBC bosses were hard, actually most of them were ridiculously easy. Only the gatekeeper crap required for attunements were hard and the rest scaled up from total faceroll to hard content inside tiers. Just like Firelands and Dragon Soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    First of all, MH trash was not "harder than bosses". MH "trash" was part of the boss encounter, fighting the actual boss was just the last phase of the encounters, you may or may not like that design but that's how it was.
    Trial of the Crusader had five bosses. Hyjal Summit had five bosses and four piles of trash between. Four piles of trash with separate loot table from the bosses and you could rest, drink, take a nap and summon missing players in between.

    I'm quite sure that everybody including you can see the difference between ToC and Hyjal.
    Last edited by vesseblah; 2012-09-12 at 10:15 AM.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    I don't even see normal mode as content, its just something you do week one of the tier and then never go back. As far as I'm concerned heroic mode is the only 'real raiding' and everyone else gets to play around in the joke content.

    Everyone wins, well except those who only derive joy from epeening.
    I wonder would you feel that way if you had to work in normal modes to get to heroic. Lets be honest the DS normal mode week one was a joke. I do nto consider myself a "heroic" raider but when the only semblance of a challenge comes from heroic modes, then what choice do I have.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by john duo View Post
    what is exactly bothering you?
    -the fact that you just cant stand still in the middle of ogg with your mount and gear as if AFKing waiting to see how ppl admire you anymore?
    This is exactly the problem all these special snowflakes have. All their other so called arguments is just hand waving trying to justify this.

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by Hagen09 View Post
    No, you keep talking about progression. Moving from one tier to the next it progression. It is up to you if you skip a tier or not. Blizzard is not deciding that for you. You don't have to do the side stuff just because it is there and you will not need to do it in MoP as hc gear will always be better than everything at the same tier and the next tier of LFR.
    I keep talking about progression because that's exactly what this design destroys. And no, having the content regress toward your position while you twiddle your thumbs is not"progressing" (in fact that's the exact opposite).
    As for the "just pretend that the rest of the game doesn't exist", it's just so absurd and so full of bad faith it doesn't even require a counter-point - especially from a point of view that claimed it was "unfair" that people had more content than them, guess that the "pretend it doesn't exist" ridiculousness only works one way, he ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeybrains View Post
    I think what the OP would like to see (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Akka, Grogo - and I know you will)

    1) Raids should be of 1 difficulty not added mechanics / mobs for different levels.
    2) True Tier progression, if you can't beat a boss you shouldn't be able to progress (no nerfs, lfr loot to assist in Tier raids etc)

    Which basically means that like in BC, as Blizzard has previously stated, only 1% of the base gets to progress through all the content.

    Did I attack a "strawman" again or did I accurately sum up the position in 2 statements?
    Good, first step on the way toward an honest discussion successful : no strawman for now, that's in fact my position.
    Now for the harder next step : can you sum up in the same way, without strawman, the MOTIVATION behind this position ?
    Quote Originally Posted by link064 View Post
    Everything except the last tier is made irrelevant - How is that a problem?
    I'm pretty sure you can bother to read the crapton of text that was already posted explaining this issue in great details.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    The content is easier, you get a few bosses that are actually difficult and use them to generalize the fact that the content overall is harder? That's fail logic right there.
    Agree. Remind me of the Wrath "debates" :

    - The game overall has become very too easy and boring :-/
    - lol u didnt kill the LK HM herp derp

    /facepalm
    Quote Originally Posted by bajskorv View Post
    This is exactly the problem all these special snowflakes have. All their other so called arguments is just hand waving trying to justify this.
    Funny, the feeling I have is rather that this idea is a self-serving invention to paint others in bad light.
    The fact that people mindlessly repeat it even when confronted with arguments that have NOTHING to do with it is rather more than a coincidence.

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    Yes because the truth is so obvious with this one, you still have millions of people bitching about raiding is not as good as it used to be yet here you are stating that those millions are a minority. OH YEAH IT'S THE TRUTH ALL RIGHT only because i said so*sarcasm* that's what you sound like
    Your post there doesn't have even a remote connection to reality.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    You seem to have some fundamental misconceptions about how discussion forums work.



    Dylanmoo did broad generalization of how TBC bosses were all hard and that the difficulty ramped up during the expansion, which I both disproved quite easily. And now you're here with nice strawman argument that TBC difficulty didn't actually ramp up inside expansion but inside tiers and that it was me who's wrong, not Dylanmoo.

    The core point is that not all TBC bosses were hard, actually most of them were ridiculously easy. Only the gatekeeper crap required for attunements were hard and the rest scaled up from total faceroll to hard content inside tiers. Just like Firelands and Dragon Soul.



    Trial of the Crusader had five bosses. Hyjal Summit had five bosses and four piles of trash between. Four piles of trash with separate loot table from the bosses and you could rest, drink, take a nap and summon missing players in between.

    I'm quite sure that everybody including you can see the difference between ToC and Hyjal.
    The core point in your corepoint is way too flawed, it seems more like a subjective opinion more than fact. The funny thing is that none of the bosses in firelands or dragon soul ramped up to be more and more difficult. The learning curves just dropped dramatically within the past 2 expansions and it is so because they want to follow a model that allows everyone to get through content. I clearly recall more guilds clearing content in cataclysm vs tbc, stating that some tbc bosses were ridiculously easy is disputable.

    The difficulty in in TOC vs MH were infact the bosses and the numbers that you had to deal with are what sets them apart. You either never raided BC, don't remember, or were one of those people who cleared content after they nerfed them. BC = stood in fire for a second you die, cata stand in fire for 3 seconds healers bitch at you and you still live, BC get cleaved and instantly die, cata get cleaved and healers bitch at you for being a tard while still surviving, point being stupidity is acceptable in cata and wotlk where as bc they forced you to learn and progressively get better.

    Your post there doesn't have even a remote connection to reality.
    Can't think of anything else logical to say? sounds like you're upset about my opinion sorry.

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    The funny thing is that none of the bosses in firelands or dragon soul ramped up to be more and more difficult.
    You're hatin' so much you just can't see things objectively anymore. Speaking of Firelands in 25 player heroic difficulty:

    Shannox was fairly easy if you had few competent tanks and dps, most guilds killed it on first day. Rhyolith was mechanically easy, but very buggy and annoying to drive. Also fairly easy. Staghelm was facerolled by most guilds with clever use of class abiities.

    Alysrazor totally doable, but individual requirement of line dancing to avoid standing on fire. Beth'tilac had pretty high DPS requirement for P2, but other than that it was mostly finding out a suitable group composition.

    Baleroc had insanely high DPS requirement when it came out before nerfs, being a big step up from the other five bosses and much harder than Staghelm after it. Not just DPS requirement but also precise movement in 25man raid. And no point even Mentioning Ragnaros which went to difficulty 14 in scale of 1-10. There is a ramp up in difficulty, but it's not linear, rather three or four distinctive steps.

    Same applies to Dragon Soul:

    Morchok super easy on it's own step. After that Hagara, Yor'Sahj and Ultraxion on step two. After that Zon'ozz and Blackhorn on step three. And Madness & Spine were again on their own league. that's five distinctive steps up in difficulty (except last two in wrong order).

    Speaking of Hyjal Summit:

    Rage Winterchill and Anetheron total faceroll, Morchok level in difficulty. After that Kaz'rogal and Azgalor only tiny bit harder bosses, but with much harder trash waves. Archimonde significantly harder. You can see it as three distinctive steps in difficulty or an exponential curve. Black Temple did exact same thing. Clearly distinctive steps up in difficulty.

    Starting to see a pattern here? Firelands and Dragon Soul did nothing different in ramping up of difficulty compared to T6 for example. Claiming anything else is either deep denial or madness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    I clearly recall more guilds clearing content in cataclysm vs tbc, stating that some tbc bosses were ridiculously easy is disputable.
    There was no easy mode in raid difficulty during TBC, of course there would be more guild clearing content in Cataclysm. The thing is what people like you conveniently ignore is that the attunements made it impossible to access the easy bosses in TBC. In my realm every single 3/4 & 5/6 guild stuck on Vashj and Kael went to 3/5 & 3/9 T6 within a week after attunements were removed. That's how easy those bosses were.

    Or to put it other way, my guild did first kill of heroic 25man Morchok on 6th attempt. Rage Winterchill, Supremus and Shade of Akama took five attempts together for all three bosses in TBC. So yes, the content was very easily facerollable once you had passed the attunement shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    BC = stood in fire for a second you die, cata stand in fire for 3 seconds healers bitch at you and you still live
    Not even close. Look back into videos of Illidari Council or Archimonde and compare that to heroic LK or heroic Ragnaros.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    point being stupidity is acceptable in cata and wotlk
    Being stupid like somebody who'd say something like that while handling Defiles on heroic LK or Traps/Waves/Seeds/Meteorites/Breaths on heroic Ragnaros would cause instant wipe.

    You might get away exaggerating a little bit, but too much is too obvious.
    Last edited by vesseblah; 2012-09-12 at 03:09 PM.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  8. #1048
    Ok, from what I gather, this is me:

    - I pose in org for 3 hours after a raid

    -I am stupid

    -I am selfish

    - I need to get a life and get a job

    - I want to feel special

    - I used the word strawman 1000 times, in fact ive never said it once...until now..not sure wtf this is about

    - I dont want people raiding that can't play as much as he does

    -I want it to be super elite hard

    - That i speak for all the raiders out there

    - too many ppl can raid now and go around with the same gear model as me

    -massive ego and arrogance

    - ----------

    There is more I guess but screw it. I sure said a lot in my original post but strangely enough, none of it had anything to do with above. Thanks for adding words to my post, thats always a good sign.

    Go back and re-read my original post before assuming I am the devil.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 03:48 PM ----------

    The below is a reminder of what has been said, quit adding the make-believe stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    I keep seeing posts about less people doing raids, that that part is becoming smaller within wow, that we have 3 versions of raids for those who want to do it easy-mode, etc etc etc. Lots of opinions.


    This is what I propose:

    No more heroic raids, one raid fits all but keep a learning to raid for those that just want to experience and learn, they can decide if they want to get into the true spirit of raiding or not.

    Give the raid back to the raiders. The others can have their 5 mans - quests - farming - pets - pvp and what not.

    Give raids back to the raiders. Get rid of heroic raids. The model that worked best raid wise was Burning Crusade model. You had no gimmicky heroic versions, they just got progressively difficult. Not just the same boss again with a new ability added.

    Give back raiding to the raiders, there is tons of other stuff for casuals and non-raiders to do. Raiding is a culture of its own, it is just about lost. I would like to see it saved.

    Please read this with an open mind geared to discussion. It really is time raiding went back to those that love it and all the goals/difficulty that should be associated with it and all that it should entail.

    ======================

    EDIT 1* I am adding this to bottom, my definition of raiding and what that should entail.

    Raiding should be (and used to be this at its best):

    1. BC Model

    2. 3-4 raids...increased difficulty, need to finish one to be able to get to the next

    3. No heroic version, nothing re-hashed, can't stress this enough

    4. the further you go the harder it should get, (last raid in tier) You can't gdo the last half of a dungeon...too bad...others will...you get better or you do not see it.

    5. I heard this a million times "I would love to raid but can't"..not our fault. Do not ruin the essence of it. if you can't do it..you'll live but please don't drag others down with you.

    6. There are those wanting challenge, logical challenges, there is those wanting shit handed to them. Raiding should be about the work, strategy, time invested, working together for a common goal - comraderie and brotherhood. The further you want to go the more you need. If you can't do that, do not raid.

    (one other thing..LFR is not raiding, it is not. Quit saying it is. It is a tool to see content easily and more to the point, get loot easily. It has none of the characteristics of the above. Give people gear straight up, the same as raiders if you want..just hand it out...don't care...but leave the raiding to actual raiders)

    Edit 2 **

    Well this thread exploded.

    To add a few things to my original post. I realize people like LFR, as some do not have the time to raid hardcore. I think most half-assed serious guilds/raiders do 2-3 nights a week. Not that bad. Many are not hard-core but are 'raiders". 2-3 evenings a week is not much but that is probably the norm now-a-days. This is not a fact, just going on by what I myself see and have noticed.

    A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding. Typically it's group that is formed into a cesspool, the cesspool then zergs a boss. There is no team work, people are usually ignorant to others , sometimes in the most vile ways. It is not about seeing 'content", people can't even say that any more with a straight look on their face. LFR is so players can get loot the fastest, easiest way possible and in turn, have fooled themselves into believing LFR is 'raiding". You will see the worst of people in LFR, you will never ever see the best out of people. LFR is the opposite of raiding. So to be blunt, if you do LFR and have been arguing in this thread about that being your 'raid"...stop it. It is not raiding. Let's stop calling it raiding. Think of a new name. Maybe "looking-to get-loot-easy-while-being-a-dick -to-others". Too long maybe.

    Going back to my original post, I did say BC was the pinnacle of raiding, I still stand by that. It was great, I loved it, others loved it (even casuals). In today's market, there can be made room for casuals at the start. They then will learn if raiding is for them and continue on..or not. Either you want to raid for real or you want to pretend. If you want to raid and think LFR is raiding, you are only fooling yourself.

    Again, raiding is:

    A group of people getting together to do something bigger than usual, it feels epic and rewarding.

    Comraderie / brotherhood

    Logistics / planning

    Time invested

    Community

    Competition, with others or versus your own team. Investment of time and energy for epic rewards.

    major teamwork

    relationships


    That is raiding.

    Along with this post and my original post, hopefully ive been clear. Some will not like this at all, maybe because it affects their loot. For those people, I can only repeat, maybe raiding wasn't for you and maybe you aren't good for the raiding community in the long run.

    This is nothing to do with special snowflakes, elitism or anything in that vein. This is my opinion, I am not God, but ive paid my money a long time now and my opinion is as valid as any of yours.

    Thanks

  9. #1049
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    What is the hang up with the semantics of "raiding"? I just don't understand why it matters so much to you or anyone for that matter. Let us have our "cesspool" and you go and do your raids.

    1&2. By BC model, you mean a series of quest chains that attune/key you that you need a damn flowchart to complete? Ok, well, I guess that wouldn't be too bad now that LFD exists, and the way scenarios are lining up, we could have the whole "group" quest things again. Again, with LFR, it shouldn't be too hard to go do Raid A before doing Raid B and again Raid C in that order. I think Bliz could make that work now that they would be able to work around the "artificial difficulty" of a wall that it imposed. You could even find it fun to self impose such restrictions on you own progression. It might be fun to give yourself and your guild a little personal challenge.

    3. No heroic version, nahhh... I can't see this happening in the near future at least. They've given that to raiders, they aren't going to take it back. They may change it up here and there, but unless they actually replace it, there will always be something like it. Perhaps challenge mode will take it's place in the future. Who knows.

    4. As far as dungeon difficulty, I like where you have the first few bosses be faceroll easy, then you have a few harder ones, then you might step back and have an easy one like the chess event or lootship (you know, give some breathing room), and then finally ramp up to the endboss caliber fight. It seems this has been the case for awhile now. I'm not sure what you would change.

    5. See, that's the beauty of LFR. We don't HAVE to drag down other raiders. We aren't trying to join your group or guild. We just run a fun, easy version of your "real raid". Let's just call it EasyMODE, or Raid Lite, or ummm..... LFR? You got your toys, we got ours and never the twain shall meet. Isn't that cool?

    6. I want challenges, but I don't always want them in a game I use strictly for entertainment. It's not that the encounters are difficult or that I can't figure out a character rotation. No, that's not it. The challenges that raiding impose upon me are ones that actually spill over into my real life. I like to keep business and pleasure separate if you know what I mean. When in a guild and trying to log on the same time several nights a week, week after week, it starts to impose a little too much on my RL responsibilities. Not to mention, having to deal with people in the guild who may not be as courteous or as time conscious of others as they should be. I say, what the hell, if I can cut out the middle man (the guild) and hop right into a LFR group, have some fun, see the encounter, get some EasyMODE loot and be on my way, then I am all for it. Those that want to do it the other way have that option. And like I said, they never have to even cross! It's a Win/Win.

    I think you are concerned that people who do LFR consider themselves Raiders (well, Blizz does at least) and that somehow impacts the "badge of honor" you have given yourself. Don't worry, in my experience, that isn't the case. Most of us trogs that do LFR just want to live and let live and have our EasyMODE experience with our EasyMODE loot. You can keep your "Real Raids" and the title "Raider" if it really makes you feel better..

  10. #1050
    I agree 100% with the poster, not everyone HAS to see the content. back in tbc that was the point if you made it to illidan or KJ it was because you were really truly a good player and you were one of the lucky few. I remember checking the 1 or 2 people in Shatrath with awesome gear and saying to myself "damn how good are they" at this time i was a Kara raider, every week same old bosses didn't see ANY content other than that and guess what? I was HAPPY. Even though i'm a bit more hardcore now i still don't understand why casuals these days NEED to see the content...
    If they're not good enough or don't have enough time that's not OUR problem.
    I'd say bring back the BC style of real PROGRESSION raiding if people gave it a chance they'd see you don't need to experience everything in the game and drag others down.

    Edit 1>>
    Besides don't you get to see them anyway in a years time when you come back with your next expansion greens? Patience can go a long way tbh.
    Last edited by Aardy; 2012-09-12 at 07:02 PM.

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by Aardy View Post
    If they're not good enough or don't have enough time that's not OUR problem.
    But it is Blizzard's problem.

    So Blizzard changes the game to keep more of those people subscribed.

    And then you wail and rend your clothing in protest.

    But hey, to quote someone: that's not OUR problem!
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  12. #1052
    Touche with the quote^^
    Yes Blizz changed the game, they introduced LFR and I have no problem with that but why give it loot that its 90% as good as normal raids when the casuals complain about not SEEING the content? If they want to see and try it let them but don't reqard them for faceroll crap like LFR.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Aardy View Post
    Touche with the quote^^
    Yes Blizz changed the game, they introduced LFR and I have no problem with that but why give it loot that its 90% as good as normal raids when the casuals complain about not SEEING the content? If they want to see and try it let them but don't reqard them for faceroll crap like LFR.
    That was a problem that Blizzard recognized. Specifically, the weapons and trinkets from DW were way too strong for LFR, even above the loot from Heroic Firelands.

    LFR in MoP will not have such powerful weapons available, GC said they are making sure of that. It will be a lower ilvl than the previous tier. And the new loot system, being much more random, will make it very difficult to get a specific piece of gear you want from LFR.

    They don´t wnat LFR to be the most viable way of gearing up, but a way for casuals to see content. Of course, some gearing up will come from it.I myself will run LFR a couple of times trying to find some better pieces at the beginning, but later I'll go to normals and never look back.

  14. #1054
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...gue-of-raiding

    25 man raiding was already under strain and with Paragon who is still considered the best raiding guild in the world now dropping to 10man I expect many other top guilds to follow so they can compete at the same format as them.

    For the above reason and because +90% of all raiding guilds are now 10 man it is being viewed by many as the new competitive format. Regardless if a 25 man raiding guild comes first many are starting to focus more on what 10man guilds are doing.

    It's another nail in the coffin for 25 man raiding with GMs/officers and recruitment already having to deal with the extra effort outside of raids.

    What are your thoughts on this matter and do you agree that 10man is the new premier league of raiding in wow?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    Personal opinions are not facts. And this thread is just as blatantly biased as the one I just closed about how 25 mans are epic and 10 mans are boring.
    With much respect I will just link a few urls that add to my personal opinion.

    25 man raiding guilds that did morchok heroic so far.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/2506109 --> 3363

    10 man raiding guilds that did morchok heroic so far.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/1006109 --> 44782

    The above proves my > 90% doing 10 mans.

    http://www.paragon.fi/

    The above proves paragon the best raiding guild in the world is going 10 man

  15. #1055
    The Lightbringer MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Burning Crusade raid progression design was terrible.
    Nyoro~n? (´・ω・`)
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    Weight lost since 21st of June: 62kg/~136lb

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Madruga View Post
    They don´t wnat LFR to be the most viable way of gearing up, but a way for casuals to see content. Of course, some gearing up will come from it.I myself will run LFR a couple of times trying to find some better pieces at the beginning, but later I'll go to normals and never look back.
    You see its still a gear-up tool.. This kind of annoys me since almost every casual I have seen on these forumns has complained about SEEING content, Not gearing up from it. I guarantee you much less would do LFR if there was No gear on offer.

  17. #1057
    High Overlord
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    Shadowcrafter, what is your point? More people are doing 10 mans than 25 mans? What are you trying to say about that?

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But it is Blizzard's problem.

    So Blizzard changes the game to keep more of those people subscribed.
    Doesn't seem to be working.

  19. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aardy View Post
    You see its still a gear-up tool.. This kind of annoys me since almost every casual I have seen on these forumns has complained about SEEING content, Not gearing up from it. I guarantee you much less would do LFR if there was No gear on offer.
    Wrong. EXPERIENCING content. I want to experience the lore. I want to experience an easy mode of the raid. I want the experience of getting easy mode loot. Why is this a problem when, especially in MoP the gear will be even lesser quality than it is now? And so what if this is a way people are gearing up? Does it bother you that H 5 mans drop loot and you can queue through the dungeon finder? Loot is content anyways. Blizzard designed it, they crafted it, and they created it as part of the LFR/Raiding experience.

    Why is it so important to you that I not get loot?

    Edit: Actually, if there was no loot, then yeah, I would probably only do it once or twice just to experience the story or kill time. But it wasn't designed with that in mind. Blizz specifically wants to keep people busy and subscribed. This is just one tool in their arsenal for that.
    Last edited by Woozle; 2012-09-12 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Additional thoughts

  20. #1060
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Doesn't seem to be working.
    Thank you! Drop of 3 Million Subs since LFR came out? WoW Blizz what a great plan!

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