I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Thatwsntmilk]

Last I checked, the raids was never taken from raiders. If you want to raid, then raid.

Raids still exist. But real raiding with actual progression curves in between dinging max level and raiding top tier was almost entirely removed from the game.

Progression (e.g. leveling, professions, gear, personal skill etc.) is what made WoW as big as it was and it's a bad thing to remove the essence of WoW bit by bit.

[Pendraeg]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

As a FORMER raider, let me explain this one to you: It isn't elitism. No one's really asking to restrict access to anyone. What people like the OP, and myself, truth be told, are asking for is a return to non-iterative raiding. No, I don't want to run LFR then Normal then Hardmode. What's wanted is a return of learning the mechanics being the challenge, not learn the mechanics in easy mode then it's a gear check to make it through the next step. Does this becoming exclusionary? Unfortunately, yes. It isn't the intent; it's a side effect. The intent is to make CHALLENGING raid content fresh for those that play the game exclusively to raid. Right now you have two steps: Fresh content that's easy, then challenging content that rehashes what you've been through before. That's not really all that fun for a dedicated raider.

[Onewildknight]

This tread is still going? Wow!!!!! Ok give it a rest. Raiding can be difficult if you want it to be. What you should do if your really into a challenge is forget getting the gear but run through and complete the raid in the first week. Then no matter what go back in and raid the whole thing on heroic the next week. There are a few guilds that can accomplish this and will with World First achievements. The big deal is this. LFR is not to get gear. Normal is for getting the gear. LFR is for your alts to catch up so if you need to swap for a heroic you can somewhat accomplish this. Oh well either way. I like Dragon Soul. I did not get a chance to do firelands on heroic. But from what I understand it was more challenging. I like the LFR system. I think once you get past the idea that "its required" to start raiding. Then you will be ok. As far as I could tell when i returned to the game. The difference between LFR and normal is a few mechanics and some high damage multipliers.

Why are you concerned about letting raiders raid. If real raiders wanted to raid they would do so on alts in older content when no one is really there to support them. Just a thought but gear your lvl 80 toons out in Item level 308 gear then go raid ICC. This might be fun with no set bonuses or anything. Don't forget you can get 10 or 25 friends together and do Molten Core at level 60 if you choose to. That could be a challenge. Anyway have a good night and see you in MoP.

[zeophor]

So you're saying WoW became one of the most successful games ever because of the raid design used by 5% (or whatever the figure is) of the player base? So the other 95% paid and logged on for what exactly?

I'm saying exactly what I wrote. You cannot claim that the game absolutely must not provide content for top 5%, or that it's a terrible move, because they did it and it didn't bankrupt them and kill the game.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 06:30 AM ----------

The game must be more accessible than before with every passing year to widen the potential playerbase. This is basic economics.

You still just keep asserting it without providing a reason why you think that. Especially when we have an example for a long time period where Blizzard did exactly the opposite and widened the potential playerbase every single quarter. Furthermore, increasing accessibility has not widened the playerbase, there are less WoW players today than there were in TBC. So once again, what are you basing this claim on?

[Injin]

I'm saying exactly what I wrote. You cannot claim that the game absolutely must not provide content for top 5%, or that it's a terrible move, because they did it and it didn't bankrupt them and kill the game.

Neither did not doing it.

In fact, for whatever reason, blizzard have decided that their policy on that was mistaken and have moved far, far away from that model (after very briefly retrying it at the start of cataclysm) and have publicy stated that they can no longer justify wasting resources on such a small amount of people.

That's right, bunkie. Blizzard publicly state that making progression raids as you want them is a waste of their time and a waste of their money.

You still just keep asserting it without providing a reason why you think that. Especially when we have an example for a long time period where Blizzard did exactly the opposite and widened the potential playerbase every single quarter. Furthermore, increasing accessibility has not widened the playerbase, there are less WoW players today than there were in TBC. So once again, what are you basing this claim on?

Blizzard think that.

Good enough for me.

And, while it may not be good enough for you, it doesn't matter a jot. This is the model and will be for at least another two years. I suggest either sucking it up or learning korean because wow has moved on.

[zeophor]

Blizzard think that.

Good enough for me.

Where does this blind trust in Blizzard come from? They're a company that managed to lose a quarter of WoW subs in Cata. They're a company that managed to make D3 with the shelf-life of a dairy product. Hardly achievements inspiring confidence in their current team.

[Injin]

Where does this blind trust in Blizzard come from? They're a company that managed to lose a quarter of WoW subs in Cata. They're a company that managed to make D3 with the shelf-life of a dairy product. Hardly achievements inspiring confidence in their current team.

Who said anything about trust?

At no point have I said anywhere what my own personal opinion is on the matter. I've outlined why I think blizzard are doing what they are doing (based on facts such as them saying "we are doing this because TBC sucked dick for most players" etc) and I've pointed out if you don't like it you are shit out of luck. I trust them to know more about wow than I do, that's all.

Why not just accept that blizzard are doing what they are doing and move on?

[Seranthor]

But it gets nerfed all the time.



at 7:19 Greg Street explains that he nerfed TBC style raiding so that "Everyone is able to see it". He failed miserably at this. WoW worked better when people knew that raiding is not for everyone. This is why the game is going down. Greg Street ruined WoW.

Respectfully, Greg Street hasnt' ruined Wow, he may of ruined your ability to wave pixellated parts at others around you and say 'look at me I did X and you cant do it cause you aren't in X guild'.

Your view is at best self centered and myopic, the devs have to do whats best for EVERYone, not just you and your cadre of 'I'm better than you cause I live in my mother's basement where I can play Wow all day every day while my mother dutifully brings down the Yoohoos and Hot Pockets anytime I bellow'

Newsflash sparky, Wow is trying to attract new and more subscribers, and games with brutal learning curves dont gain and retain subscribers. So, respectfully, if they gain 10 subs for every QQing 'thinks they are hardcore' raider that leaves... its a win for Blizzard.

[Mudor]

Why not make the content fairly difficult but not super hard. Some small easy raids that isnt LFR but with easy mechanics like DS. Then add 2-3 more raids in the same tier that are harder so everyone gets goals to progress to?

Why not make 5 man dungeons harder? Add enrage timers, less forgiving mechanics and harder trash that requires CC. People will eventually learn to play and we can go back to what it used to be?

[Itisamuh]

It's fine the way it is. I don't care about raiding and never will, but any aspect of the game should be accessible to the masses. I don't necessarily think heroics should be nerfed so others can do them later (that's what normal and looking for raid are for, isn't it?) but everything else is in a better place, or getting there. I'm sorry, but if you think the meat of the game should be available to only a very tiny portion of the player base (those who are willing to live in big guilds) then you're definitely playing the wrong game, and I'm willing to bet you won't find a good game that fits your model.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 03:57 AM ----------

As a FORMER raider, let me explain this one to you: It isn't elitism. No one's really asking to restrict access to anyone. What people like the OP, and myself, truth be told, are asking for is a return to non-iterative raiding. No, I don't want to run LFR then Normal then Hardmode. What's wanted is a return of learning the mechanics being the challenge, not learn the mechanics in easy mode then it's a gear check to make it through the next step. Does this becoming exclusionary? Unfortunately, yes. It isn't the intent; it's a side effect. The intent is to make CHALLENGING raid content fresh for those that play the game exclusively to raid. Right now you have two steps: Fresh content that's easy, then challenging content that rehashes what you've been through before. That's not really all that fun for a dedicated raider.

Then start in heroic, don't look fights up beforehand and have a challenge. It shouldn't matter what others do.

[Baergrillz]

It's fine the way it is. I don't care about raiding and never will, but any aspect of the game should be accessible to the masses. I don't necessarily think heroics should be nerfed so others can do them later (that's what normal and looking for raid are for, isn't it?) but everything else is in a better place, or getting there. I'm sorry, but if you think the meat of the game should be available to only a very tiny portion of the player base (those who are willing to live in big guilds) then you're definitely playing the wrong game, and I'm willing to bet you won't find a good game that fits your model.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 03:57 AM ----------



Then start in heroic, don't look fights up beforehand and have a challenge. It shouldn't matter what others do.

I agree with this, most of you complaining about difficulty and say your bore dorw/e because of it. Just need to quit the game isn't for you anymore if you truely want a challenge it's there you just gotta look for it. Hell try go straight from 5 man heroics into H raids without set bonuses, without looking up fights, hell even try it without vent/skype, and turn off DBM. I'm sure that would be challenging.

[zeophor]

Newsflash sparky, Wow is trying to attract new and more subscribers, and games with brutal learning curves dont gain and retain subscribers. So, respectfully, if they gain 10 subs for every QQing 'thinks they are hardcore' raider that leaves... its a win for Blizzard.

They're not gaining subs. They lost a quarter of all subs.

Also, a newsflash for you "sparky", everything you listed has nothing to do with reality, it's just you own ego defense. You need to believe that all these people who achieved more than you could must be living in their mother's basement and only achieving more because they spend much more time. Reality is different. My guild had all kinds of people from waiters and students to doctors and surgeons, we raided 2-3 nights per week, and cleared almost all content from Kara to FL. Do you honestly think people put in 5+ days per week just to impress you? To feel superior to you? Sorry, but that is self-centered, and delusional.

[Ultragrisen]

The game can't please all people.

I really like them to introduce more prequesting before being able to enter raid instances, perhaps guild progress questing or something, most people playing dont give shit about the lore and by that misses alot of the feeling with wow.

The game should be hard, very hard and perhaps the very last months of a patch open up the raids for less skilled/people who have less time to play to then see the content, but then not being able to get end game items, but instead inferior quality of the same item..

Remove the stupid Epic dungeons where every one of us can get epic gear on all spots without any effort.

More questlines like Thunderfury or the Legendary Daggers, those were awesome good material.

A raid should be alot about whiping, those who cant stand that should perhaps try out pvp or archeology or getting achivements going.

Whiping 60 times on an encounter and then finally manage to kill it is a really enormous good feeling, to kill something in say 2-3 tries is nothing at all.

nevertheless Wow=Best game ever released, looking forward to when next game will be released that takes over that throne.

Happy playing in Pandoria

[Gilian]

Let them play their shitty LFR. They will get bored and sick of it and then move on. Let this game die.

My opinion: They should have never tried to get everyone into raids. They should have just made other content like pet battles for the people who can't/don't want to raid. They should have come up with other good features instead of ruining already excisting features for the people who were already using them and were having fun. There are ways to let everyone see content without fucking over half of the raiders.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 09:43 AM ----------

They're not gaining subs. They lost a quarter of all subs.

Also, a newsflash for you "sparky", everything you listed has nothing to do with reality, it's just you own ego defense. You need to believe that all these people who achieved more than you could must be living in their mother's basement and only achieving more because they spend much more time. Reality is different. My guild had all kinds of people from waiters and students to doctors and surgeons, we raided 2-3 nights per week, and cleared almost all content from Kara to FL. Do you honestly think people put in 5+ days per week just to impress you? To feel superior to you? Sorry, but that is self-centered, and delusional.

Lol, so true.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 09:50 AM ----------

I agree with this, most of you complaining about difficulty and say your bore dorw/e because of it. Just need to quit the game isn't for you anymore if you truely want a challenge it's there you just gotta look for it. Hell try go straight from 5 man heroics into H raids without set bonuses, without looking up fights, hell even try it without vent/skype, and turn off DBM. I'm sure that would be challenging.

Because people who spend years playing this game and spend hundreds of days into a character are going to quit the game without a fight after Blizzard ruined it for them because you 'need to see content'.

Maybe break your hand to make it even more challenging after you have cleared everything in blue gear?

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 09:59 AM ----------

Who said anything about trust?

At no point have I said anywhere what my own personal opinion is on the matter. I've outlined why I think blizzard are doing what they are doing (based on facts such as them saying "we are doing this because TBC sucked dick for most players" etc) and I've pointed out if you don't like it you are shit out of luck. I trust them to know more about wow than I do, that's all.

Why not just accept that blizzard are doing what they are doing and move on?

You apparently wouldn't accept everything they could do otherwise you wouldn't be here. If they would go back to TBC style you would be here complaining too because you spend so much time in this game and now it's "not for you" anymore. Then some idiot tells you to "just quit".

(based on facts such as them saying "we are doing this because TBC sucked dick for most players" etc)

That's not a fact my friend, that's you having blind trust in them. If it sucked dick for so many players then why didn't they just quit?

Trust me subs will drop even more in MoP, that's a FACT! /jk
I think they will drop even more and not because it's an old game or because new games are coming out. It's simply because Blizzard made wrong decisions.

[Melniboner]

I have just one question: Is the only reason, the subs drop, the changing raid environment? And if it is not the only reason, how big is the part off the loss?(okay, two questions)

[mysticx]

Why not make 5 man dungeons harder? Add enrage timers, less forgiving mechanics and harder trash that requires CC. People will eventually learn to play and we can go back to what it used to be?

Blizz tried that (You might remember, early Cataclysm ring any bells?), and people walked off in droves, more players left than there ever were hardcore raiders, so it can't be raiding alone that caused it, which means it must have been some difference in the other content that did it, what was changed back then? Blizz tried the "Let's beat l33t sk1llz into them!"-routine, might have been that then, wouldn't you think?

[rinleezwins]

PvP players demand stuff like LFR to experience raiding, because they are not good enough. On the other hand, we, raiders, do not ask for easy pvp rewards, achievements and free rating. Do we?

[mrwingtipshoes]

PvP players demand stuff like LFR to experience raiding, because they are not good enough. On the other hand, we, raiders, do not ask for easy pvp rewards, achievements and free rating. Do we?

Sorry buy honor gear that is earned by being killed? As long as you are in a BG you get currency to buy gear, i don't see how that's NOT an easy reward.

[KtN]

If you don't have time to do it, then don't do it. Simple and easy.

You don't get to decide that, Blizzard does - and Blizzard would like people that have different priorities to play as well. Simple and easy.

[Injin]

You apparently wouldn't accept everything they could do otherwise you wouldn't be here. If they would go back to TBC style you would be here complaining too because you spend so much time in this game and now it's "not for you" anymore. Then some idiot tells you to "just quit".

Don't think so, I loved TBC. I'm just not stuipid enough to think my personal preference for rep grinding, lockouts etc is widely shared or even good design.

That's not a fact my friend, that's you having blind trust in them. If it sucked dick for so many players then why didn't they just quit?

They did. TBC attracted enough new players that even though people quit it continued to grow subs.

Trust me subs will drop even more in MoP, that's a FACT! /jk
I think they will drop even more and not because it's an old game or because new games are coming out. It's simply because Blizzard made wrong decisions.

I think Mists will be a sleeper. As far as wow content goes, it's the result of years of experience and is abpour as good as it can be, given the seperate markets it tries to cater to.

But we shall see!