I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Monkeybrains]

Really you don't think "raiders" are the minority?

Let's let all the "raiders" pay the $15 a month and the rest of us are F2P...than we'll see what kind of content you get delivered. Good luck with that. The rest of us pay just as much as you so we should be able to see the same content.

[Deleted]

I call bullshit on raiders being a tiny minority. Let's say it is true...then give us back raiding, the real vibe of it...not some strained version of raid-lite.

BC tells a diff story, it worked like a dream then and it can now. Don't raid if you dont want to but why do people insist on ruining it for others?

The logic can be used right back at you. Why should raiding be removed from the majority of players because you want harder content than is made available? Why do people like yourself insist on ruining it for others?

[Tomana]

Except you have the same mentality. Selfish and oblivious. YOU want the game catered to YOU at the expense of 'elitist'. By your failed logic, if ALL players should be able to experience all the content how they want to, then the elitist are getting screwed and therefore the game should make changes to appease them, right?

Catering to 1% of customers at the expense of the others is suicide.
Catering to 99% is common sense.

[roflwaffle]

"Give raiding back to the raiders. By taking away heroic raids!"

honestly? i don't see how that makes any sense to anyone.
if the "casuals" didn't raid normal modes, you wouldn't have any raids.
What would be the point of making one raid (that's on a heroic raid level)
that a minuscule amount of people will be able to clear, and deny it to the
rest of the player base when that would just piss them off and make you
lose you their buisness?

It's like selling a product at a baseball game you know only 30 people will
buy when you could have been selling something 3000 people would buy.

[Gurbz]

Except you have the same mentality. Selfish and oblivious. YOU want the game catered to YOU at the expense of 'elitist'. By your failed logic, if ALL players should be able to experience all the content how they want to, then the elitist are getting screwed and therefore the game should make changes to appease them, right?

Exactly correct. If only Blizzard would implement a version of these raids that is tuned to be more difficult. That way the hardcore raiders who want a challenge have content while people who are not willing to dedicate that much time/effort still are able to access the content.

Oh, wait....

[Grogo]

Back in BC, the model worked well and the sub numbers increased and increased. Past history points to backing up what I am saying. I cannot do anything about the people who put words in my mouth That were never said. That is just a weak way of trying to express an opinion.

[Skorpionss]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

who said they shouldn't raid? they just shouldn't be carried... they wanna clear a raid then put some fucking effort and learn how to play... heck pugs are clearing normal modes no problem nowdays ...

[Deleted]

I don't even see normal mode as content, its just something you do week one of the tier and then never go back. As far as I'm concerned heroic mode is the only 'real raiding' and everyone else gets to play around in the joke content.

Everyone wins, well except those who only derive joy from epeening.

Exactly this. I am a heroic raider, although I do it pretty casually (hoping to get a little bit more hardcore in MoP, new job and stuff), I think posts like yours, OP, just don't make sense. Of course, having something others don't have does make it more valuable to you, but aren't heroic only mounts, achievements and titels enough for you?

[La]

here is my simple question

if there is three difficulties, LFR, Normal, Heroic, right? Heroic is essentially what you want, it would be your one difficulty, the end goal, what people strive to get better for, so they can experience it, not just do ezmode stuff, correct? okay, then tell me... why can`t you pretend that is the case now? LFR, normal, they don`t have to effect you at all, except how much you choose to let them.

Back in BC, the model worked well and the sub numbers increased and increased. Past history points to backing up what I am saying. I cannot do anything about the people who put words in my mouth That were never said. That is just a weak way of trying to express an opinion.

back in TBC, the game was still GROWING, people were still LEARNING about the game, at some point some things in the world reach a point where growth is no longer possible in large scale. i was fortunate enough to raid hardcore and complete content, but I know the majority of people were stuck in kara the ENTIRE expansion, i know people who were stuck on lurker and could only farm loot reaver. the numbers didn`t increase because of the model that was in place, in fact if i had a choice now "would you play this game now or years ago in TBC" my answer would be now.

[Ryme]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

You have no idea what an elitist is, and you need to stop running the word into ground, it's irritating.

[Fasolina]

Sorry, but this is, by definition, elitist. It is a question of supply and demand coupled with pure jealousy. The way it stands right now, raiders have access to rewards and difficulty levels that allow them to raid just as they did in the past. If there aren't enough people motivated to spend that kind of energy/effort into the game, then it is clearly not what the people who play the game "want." If however, you find that you are able to scrounge up the folks necessary to raid in the manner you want, again, there is absolutely no reason not to let casuals SEE the content and get rewards LESSER to the ones you get for Normal and Heroic versions of the raids.

Pure and simple elitism.

I was a hard-core raider through Wrath, then I got a job which prevented me from devoting as much time to the game. I welcome LFR wholeheartedly because it allowed me to participate and not just see videos of the end of the expansion. I fail to see how that in any way affects you other than immature jealousy.

Grow up.

[Deleted]

The Customer is Always Right by Wowcrendor (WoW Machinima)
Youtube it if you dont agree swaggers!

This is what the thread is turning into^^!

[Ryme]

I don't even see normal mode as content, its just something you do week one of the tier and then never go back. As far as I'm concerned heroic mode is the only 'real raiding' and everyone else gets to play around in the joke content.

Everyone wins, well except those who only derive joy from epeening.

Odd, considering you have many, many normal mode kills. Would they be because after you reach a wall of heroic content it makes sense to clear the place on normal and wait until next reset?

So I guess you do have to do normal mode more than once, eh?

[Grogo]

What I have proposed is the model of BC, it worked and worked better than the current model (also by sub numbers) That is what I am asking for, what many wanted, casual people just cannot fathom that. What is the root of that? Why do they have those opinions that the numbers just do not back up?

People raided BC, they loved it...the numbers were huge expecting the expansion after that.

[OscaR]

imo they should design heroic first then scale it down for normals and LFR (if that's not what they're doing already, i have no idea )

[Vanisari]

I keep seeing posts about less people doing raids, that that part is becoming smaller within wow, that we have 3 versions of raids for those who want to do it easy-mode, etc etc etc. Lots of opinions.


This is what I propose:

No more heroic raids, one raid fits all but keep a learning to raid for those that just want to experience and learn, they can decide if they want to get into the true spirit of raiding or not.

Give the raid back to the raiders. The others can have their 5 mans - quests - farming - pets - pvp and what not.

Give raids back to the raiders. Get rid of heroic raids. The model that worked best raid wise was Burning Crusade model. You had no gimmicky heroic versions, they just got progressively difficult. Not just the same boss again with a new ability added.

Give back raiding to the raiders, there is tons of other stuff for casuals and non-raiders to do. Raiding is a culture of its own, it is just about lost. I would like to see it saved.

Please read this with an open mind geared to discussion. It really is time raiding went back to those that love it and all the goals/difficulty that should be associated with it and all that it should entail.

The TBC model was not successful. Encounters were buggy and not patched for a long time, not really difficult. If you were to put fights like H LK or H Rag in TBC raiders then would have cried. There was a lot less skill then in general. While it did have its moments in terms of difficulty, in general WotLK and Cata offered much more challenging content for raiders.

Also, raiding was never taken away from raiders. People who could barely clear Kara in TBC are not killing H Rag or wearing a Savior title even here at 35% nerf. The hardcore raiding community has only grown from the days of TBC, not shrunk

[Deleted]

What I have proposed is the model of BC, it worked and worked better than the current model (also by sub numbers) That is what I am asking for, what many wanted, casual people just cannot fathom that. What is the root of that? Why do they have those opinions that the numbers just do not back up?

People raided BC, they loved it...the numbers were huge expecting the expansion after that.

And yet, the sub numbers reached their peak at the end of Wrath, not TBC. And Wrath is considered one of the most "casual-friendly" expansions to date. What do the numbers say about that one then?

[Ryme]

Sorry, but this is, by definition, elitist.

No, it's not. Get a dictionary. This is an opinion on the direction of the game a single player would like it to take.

[Deleted]

The TBC model was not successful. Encounters were buggy and not patched for a long time, not really difficult. If you were to put fights like H LK or H Rag in TBC raiders then would have cried. There was a lot less skill then in general. While it did have its moments in terms of difficulty, in general WotLK and Cata offered much more challenging content for raiders.

Also, raiding was never taken away from raiders. People who could barely clear Kara in TBC are not killing H Rag or wearing a Savior title even here at 35% nerf. The hardcore raiding community has only grown from the days of TBC, not shrunk

I slightly agree but I do miss tbc and
The Customer is Always Right by Wowcrendor (WoW Machinima)
is what formed the later expansions no argue about that thx

[Deleted]

Wow. How mature of you. "I'm tired of not being special." Same argument, over and over and over and over. I'm surprised raiders haven't developed spam bots yet to post that same complaint on every WoW forum that currently exists online. They might as well, it's pretty much that repetitively used anyway.

First of all, Blizz didn't dumb down the content for the majority, they made a VERSION of the content that was dumbed down for the majority to partake in. There's a difference, because the original content is still hard. Second, if Blizzard took your "if they can't play the game, don't play the game" approach they'd be the worst businessmen ever, which they aren't. It's not a single player game, it's played by millions of people, and that fact is the biggest reason that you are still getting content at all. So by suggesting they punish people that aren't gods gift to mmo's (unlike yourself) you're also condemning yourself to less content.

Second, raiding and PvP are two different things. Any average player has always been able to see all of the pvp content. Anyone can go into any battle ground and if they play enough arenas they will probably see every one of them. So, your argument clearly has nothing to do with what you get to do, but what you are rewarded with for doing it. You don't have a problem with people seeing the content, you have a problem with the fact that they are being rewarded in similar ways for seeing it. As you plainly stated "Give me every mount, pet, achiev, title, piece of gear, take restrictions off gear so I can enjoy every part of the game that I pay for". Your focus is on the rewards. You don't think casuals should be able to run an easier version of a raid and get rewarded for it, in any way, even if the rewards are not even as good as what a real raider can acquire. It's not good enough that it's worse, it has to be so inferior as to bring to that awe inspiring place of having gear that no one else can even dream of coming close to acquiring. It's the same tired song and dance. If you want to feel that way, fine. But don't hide behind a facade of actually having a compelling argument, just say what you mean and be done with it.

And I think you should check your reading comprehension skills. The poster was against the OP's argument.