1. #2001
    Unfortunately I think we are much too far down the rabbit hole. I agree they should have just fleshed out dungeons/non-raiding activities instead of complicating raiding. I think heroic raids are stupid. Why would I want to do the same raid with a new mechanic? That's boring. I'd rather go back to the dungeons-->heroics-->10 man-->25 man in terms of difficulty. Just give more to each level instead of make multiple versions of the same thing.

    Blizz is making the same mistake with the timed runs (the name escapes me...challenge modes?) versus adding new content. Financially this makes sense, same with LFR/normal/heroic. It's easier to switch some numbers than to make a whole thing content. I would rather them remake old raids than to do the same raid 100 times each patch. I'd rather have MC/BWL/BT/Hyjal etc scaled up. Hell, give them the same drops, who cares? That seems easy enough, just like adding lfr/normal/heroic. Just tweak numbers. I'd rather say "OK team, we are doing MC/BWL this week for drops, next week we are doing BT/Hyjal/Sunwell, then we are doing Naxx/Ulduar" etc. That sounds fun to me. I know I can do those now, but there's no progression.

  2. #2002
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Those numbers you gave are for subscriptions only,
    more falsehoods, the time-frame you are using does include box sales. But you knew that, didn't you?


    * Revenue from online subscriptions consists of revenue from all World of Warcraft products, including subscriptions, boxed products, expansion packs, licensing
    royalties, and value-added services.
    Online subscriptions* 905 877


    ---------- Post added 2012-09-26 at 03:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Pets, mounts and faction/server/name changes are not included.
    * Revenue from online subscriptions consists of revenue from all World of Warcraft products, including subscriptions, boxed products, expansion packs, licensing
    royalties, and value-added services.
    this is becoming a slapstick routine. next a number will get pulled out and it won't include subscriptions, I suppose.[COLOR="red"]

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-26 at 03:54 PM ----------
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2012-09-26 at 03:55 PM.
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  3. #2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    Unfortunately I think we are much too far down the rabbit hole. I agree they should have just fleshed out dungeons/non-raiding activities instead of complicating raiding.
    Wouldn't have worked. It would be ideal in some ways, but it wouldn't have worked. Once Blizzard got to the point where raiding needed to justify its investment in raiding, then Raiding needed to attract more numbers.

    I think heroic raids are stupid.
    Maybe. But the triple difficulty level is a part of what allowed the raids to become more accessible, part of what brinsg more players into the raid environment.

    Why would I want to do the same raid with a new mechanic? That's boring.
    Because its more challenging. And because it offers better loot. However, I agree with you as far as repeating the raid on Heroic after you have done Normals. If you were to ask Blizzard I suspect they would answer is to avoid an exploit (which is at least partially why the Heroics have the raid lockout system they do - to avoid the same raid stacking per encounter) or because Blizzard feels Normal needs to be finished first as a matter of principle/game design wheer you have to finish one difficulty before moving to the next. I can't think of any exploit and I suspect its the latter but I could be wrong. I would prefer breaking that link, to let those who prefer Heroics to just go straight in.

    I'd rather go back to the dungeons-->heroics-->10 man-->25 man in terms of difficulty.
    So would some others here. The big problem is that it didn't work. The model above ensured Normals wern't worth running at end game, and 10 mans were seen as a joke. 25 man guilds also poached a lot of players from 10 man guilds and most players ignored 10s because 25s was where the action was at. The sytem helped cause gear inflation, fermented strife and trouble between guilds, encouraged burnout with necessary multiple runs, did nothing to attract non-raiders into raiding and so on.

    EJL

  4. #2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abysmo3420 View Post
    I find it pathetic that Blizz feels they need to dumb down content for the majority. If you can't play the game, don't play the game. Its as simple as that. Y

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... oh dear. Blizzard isn't your friend, its a business. They have to make all content available to everyone, its common business sense. I'm sure you and your "hardcore elitist raiders" with jobs at Mcdonalds and PC World will probably never understand even the simplest of business models.


    Anyway back on subject, I use to be in a semi hardcore guild back in the days of Vanilla. But now I've returned after a year break and I don't have the time for raiding 11 days a week just to beat a boss thats got more HPz. LFR is one of the best things thats happen to WOW.

  5. #2005
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by leewillzy View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... oh dear. Blizzard isn't your friend, its a business. They have to make all content available to everyone, its common business sense. I'm sure you and your "hardcore elitist raiders" with jobs at Mcdonalds and PC World will probably never understand even the simplest of business models.


    Anyway back on subject, I use to be in a semi hardcore guild back in the days of Vanilla. But now I've returned after a year break and I don't have the time for raiding 11 days a week just to beat a boss thats got more HPz. LFR is one of the best things thats happen to WOW.
    Ah ok so its ok for blizzard to nerf content and make it easy now becuase you have enjoyed your hard core raiding before and now u dont havce time to raid as much?
    Casuals get to see content, they have brought in LFR for this reason. Normals are for every day guilds and hardmodes are indeed ment to be hard. I didnt get to kill some heroicbosses in current content, I was upset but i didnt blame blizzard. Fact being I wasnt good enough, my guild wasnt good enough. Ive since improoved and ive cleared all content since. I have no problem if I cant kill a HEROIC boss. Its ment to be Heroic for a reason. It just means I have to keep trying and keep gearing up. The game caters for all but I do think they have started to give to much instead of letting people earn it... I started playing this game becuase of the frill of working on a boss and finally getting a kill.... now its just a case of "oh we cant kill, lets just do something else they will nerf it in a week or 2"
    Personally I dont think they should nerf heroic raiding, At all. Every time you gear up this is in my eyes nerfing the boss. Give people stuff to work at instead of making it easy. No wonder people get bored. I mean come on, did Sega make Sonic easier when I couldnt clear it... I mean come on ffs I had to stay up all night just to finish the game becuase if I turned off I had to start from fresh.....

  6. #2006
    Quote Originally Posted by kiltofake View Post
    Ah ok so its ok for blizzard to nerf content and make it easy now becuase you have enjoyed your hard core raiding before and now u dont havce time to raid as much?
    What is this "ok"? Is it anything beyond your personal preferences? If so, where did this standard come from? If not, why should we care what you personally want?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  7. #2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    What is this "ok"? Is it anything beyond your personal preferences? If so, where did this standard come from? If not, why should we care what you personally want?
    My personal preference would be that hard modes stay hard.
    But it seems as tho this will never happen. I just get tired of seeing the same comments that "we pay the same as you so we deserve to see all content"
    I see things as LFR and hardmodes are the same content just a different degree of difficulty.
    I guess its just my opinion that casuals dont like to feel inferior at not being able to do hardmodes (weather its skill or time) so they feel they deserve to complete the hardmode content. In the same way people with a different mind set feel that they work harder to do this content and it should be the same for all people who want to do it. I feel that it takes away the sense of accomplishment when content gets nerfed. As i stated gear makes the contend easier anyway.

    Dont mean to stereotype with the word 'casual' too. I guess casual nowerdays means those with a less focus on progress in current content term.
    I wouldnt consider myself hard core by the way (not in the old sense of the word). I raid only 9 hours a week. So in some sense people may say im casual. But my guild push for progress in them 9 hours.

    Another way of looking at it maybe;
    Im crap at pvp... but do you think ill be given glad in the same way a lesser skilled player will be given PVE status?
    I pay the same right?
    Last edited by mmocabf7bee86a; 2012-09-28 at 02:03 PM.

  8. #2008
    The big picture is what you are missing. WoW is being made into an easier managed product. Most class diversity has been removed and balanced. Content is balanced to be explored by everyone and controlled to gate access to probably major server resources.

    I said the same thing when they removed 40 man tiers. it just has never been the same...

  9. #2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiltofake View Post
    I see things as LFR and hardmodes are the same content just a different degree of difficulty.
    That might be why they're known as "hard modes".
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  10. #2010
    Quote Originally Posted by kiltofake View Post
    I guess its just my opinion that casuals dont like to feel inferior at not being able to do hardmodes (weather its skill or time) so they feel they deserve to complete the hardmode content.
    I'm pretty sure you're just imagining that. In my experience, it's not a common position at all.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  11. #2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiltofake View Post
    My personal preference would be that hard modes stay hard.
    But it seems as tho this will never happen. I just get tired of seeing the same comments that "we pay the same as you so we deserve to see all content"
    Which is most often expressed by Blizzard. "Casuals" are more prone to want access to the content rather than an automatic right to see it all.

    I see things as LFR and hardmodes are the same content just a different degree of difficulty.
    Well...yes.

    I guess its just my opinion that casuals dont like to feel inferior at not being able to do hardmodes (weather its skill or time) so they feel they deserve to complete the hardmode content.
    Casuals are casual largely because they don't really care. If they did, WoW and raiding would have a higher priority for them.

    In other words, i don't really buy this argument. Blizzard pushes the game at casuals because thats where the money is. Hard modes get nerfed because if tbhey didn't, guilds would run into a brick wall and leave. Many did anyway.

    EJL

  12. #2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    i don't see why people can be so ignorant about other players and thinking of it from their point of view and not seeing what other players feel about it.
    You would have to ask the "casuals". Why do they have to see "everything" just because they paid a monthly fee? Why is it not enough to ask for some content for them, and some for other play styles? I don't go around demanding that I get gladiator titles because I paid my monthly fee and like the way they look, even though I'm shit at PvP.

    The reality is that the 10/25/afk/easy/hard system is not interesting to many old raiders who prefer real progression style raiding instead. We've seen WoW deteriorate to a point where most servers have no communities, no large established raiding guilds, and the whole game seems to be a glorified chat room where you teleport to minigames once in a while. Sorry, but that's not worth xpacs + 15$/month.

  13. #2013
    Deleted
    lol@this raiders are a minority and therefore blizzard should listen to the majority of casuals
    well let me tell you one thing,I've been a casual from bc to mop (meaning I'm literally unable to join a raiding guild due to time schedule) and I DO NOT WANT blizzard to cater to casuals raid-wise

    so raiders wanting the old system back aren't in a minority,there are casuals like me who agree too,because even if I'm a casual I'm still a gamer,nerfed content is shit content,and I'd rather have nothing then ruin raiding for all the other raiders,besides what is there to gain?LFR is NOT even close to what raiding is,it just feel like a big LFD group,cause that's what it is

  14. #2014
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    lol@this raiders are a minority and therefore blizzard should listen to the majority of casuals
    well let me tell you one thing,I've been a casual from bc to mop (meaning I'm literally unable to join a raiding guild due to time schedule) and I DO NOT WANT blizzard to cater to casuals raid-wise

    so raiders wanting the old system back aren't in a minority,there are casuals like me who agree too,because even if I'm a casual I'm still a gamer,nerfed content is shit content,and I'd rather have nothing then ruin raiding for all the other raiders,besides what is there to gain?LFR is NOT even close to what raiding is,it just feel like a big LFD group,cause that's what it is
    Yeah, same here. The times you finally get into a raid you will only see an easy raid. This makes me feel like the real game is further and more untouchable than it has ever been.

    Also you did get to raid more in BC as a casual player. There are 2 reasons for it 1. People knew each other better. 2. You didn't have to show your achievement. The reason number 2 changed it to "Get into raiding guild or do LFR".

  15. #2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    You would have to ask the "casuals". Why do they have to see "everything" just because they paid a monthly fee? Why is it not enough to ask for some content for them, and some for other play styles? I don't go around demanding that I get gladiator titles because I paid my monthly fee and like the way they look, even though I'm shit at PvP.
    Why should raids only ever be seen by 1 or 2% of the player base? Why should huge amounts of resources be spent on an aspect of the game few, historically speaking, have ever seen while it was current?

    As it is, would you be surprised to learn that the people saying casuals have a right to see everything isn't casuals? Casual want pain- and hassle- free access to the raids. But the argument casuals have a right to see "everything" comes from Blizzard. And they have a point - there were huge deterrents in the game preventing players from raiding and so a huge proportion were denied reasonable access to content that was seen as an important part of the game.

    The reality is that the 10/25/afk/easy/hard system is not interesting to many old raiders who prefer real progression style raiding instead. We've seen WoW deteriorate to a point where most servers have no communities, no large established raiding guilds, and the whole game seems to be a glorified chat room where you teleport to minigames once in a while. Sorry, but that's not worth xpacs + 15$/month.
    As opposed to the model which would have "progression" raiding but brought out 1 5-boss raid every year or so because raiding didn't pay for itself? As it is, I expect we'll see some sort of progression system in place as Blizzard fine tune and work in both scenarios and LFR into the gaming system. However, there is no sign at this stage that Blizzard is going to break 10s to save 25s, nor is there any reason to suggest Blizzard will get rid of the multiple difficulty settings or inflict major changes on the raid model.

    However, if you have any ideas for working in a progression system then why not put them forward?

    EJL

  16. #2016
    Pretty simple to fix this.
    1) No heroics or normal, its just one difficulty and its going to be heroic mode.
    2) Only 25 mans, no more 10 man stuff.
    3) Spectator mode, so casuals can see the content.

  17. #2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Why should raids only ever be seen by 1 or 2% of the player base? Why should huge amounts of resources be spent on an aspect of the game few, historically speaking, have ever seen while it was current?
    Nice straw man you're attacking there. There should be a variety of raid content to match a variety of playstyles, including TBC style progression raids without shortcuts and freeloot modes.

    Casual want pain- and hassle- free access to the raids.
    Who elected you the king of casuals? I was as casual as you can get in Vanilla, never raided at all. Yet I was completely happy and had no problem with there being raid content for non-casual players. Even in TBC I'd argue I was a casual since I only raided 2-3 nights per week, less hours than an average person of my age watches the TV. Yet I still wanted a proper progression raids, not this "pain- and hassle- free" junk.

    As opposed to the model which would have "progression" raiding but brought out 1 5-boss raid every year or so because raiding didn't pay for itself?

    However, if you have any ideas for working in a progression system then why not put them forward?
    They had a perfectly working raiding game in vanilla/TBC. Which, contrary to your arguments, didn't bankrupt them and lose all the players, quite the opposite in fact.

  18. #2018
    High Overlord Naeton's Avatar
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    I have nothing against LFR.
    If you want to be a raider, just push for hardmodes and realm-ranking. That's it.
    Stop qq.
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  19. #2019
    1) Everybody doesn't have to work hard 24/7 to kill a single boss. In terms of player skills, there is a huge gap between high-end guilds and casual guilds. While one of them clearing the content, the other will end up with killing only 1 or 2 bosses, which will eventually cause people to quit the game. In other words, WoW will get to an end sooner.

    2) There are servers that are extremely low populated, removing 10 man raids will cause those people to migrate bigger servers a.k.a login issues for everyone. Why would you complain about this anyway? It has its own race among other 10 man-guilds.

    3) Who gives a damn about watching someone else raiding? Ofc, there will be some people who would like to watch others raiding, but it is nowhere near playing the game yourself. It is not like "you may not be a super-duper basketball player, but you can still watch NBA finals." If people won't be able to kill the bosses themselves at some point, there is no reason to play the game. Besides that can you imagine what would happen if more than lets say 5000 people connecting to some high-end guild's raid to see how that tool works?

  20. #2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    Nice straw man you're attacking there. There should be a variety of raid content to match a variety of playstyles, including TBC style progression raids without shortcuts and freeloot modes.[
    Its not actually a strawman argument. You can keep on arguing about the ideal world scenario, but the truth right now is - raids or other content that is used by 1 or 2% of the player base is no longer possible. Your "no shortcuts" point would also so ensure that progression raiders have access to BOTH types of content while everyone else can access only one type.

    I can't think of even one good point for this system to come back as it was.

    Who elected you the king of casuals? I was as casual as you can get in Vanilla, never raided at all. Yet I was completely happy and had no problem with there being raid content for non-casual players. Even in TBC I'd argue I was a casual since I only raided 2-3 nights per week, less hours than an average person of my age watches the TV. Yet I still wanted a proper progression raids, not this "pain- and hassle- free" junk.
    And you are unlikely to get it.

    They had a perfectly working raiding game in vanilla/TBC. Which, contrary to your arguments, didn't bankrupt them and lose all the players, quite the opposite in fact.
    No. You keep missing the point on this. Or rather...you don't seem to believe it.

    Blizzard has been pointing out for years that few people ever made use of those raids. They've also, in various discussions, also pointed out the many flaws and issues they and the player base had with the old model.

    You don't seem to realise that raids used by such a small fraction of the player base are economically non-viable. It doesn't matter what the situation was like in TBC and Vanilla because the situation was different...and you also seem to overlook the fact that the Vanilla raiding structure was changed because raiding was so unpopular, that the raiding structure even back then was seen as problematic by Blizzard.

    Your entire argument is based upon a totally incorrect premise. Not only was the Vanilla/TBC raiding game not "perfectly working" but it was economically non-viable for them to support. It wasn't so much a case of not being able to afford it, but that the resources spent there could be put to better use elsewhere.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-10-01 at 07:10 AM.

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