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  1. #1

    Dragons Need More Mechanics (spoilers maybe?)

    Let me start by saying that I love the amount of lore behind these bosses, as well as the stunning visuals accompanied by them, but I simply can't stand the actual boss fights against these monsters. I was hoping these would turn into completely epic encounters where you had to dodge swooping dragons and avoid getting mauled to death by their massive claws/teeth, while at the same time avoiding the standard breath/tail attacks of a dragon... but honestly none of that seems to be the case.

    So far we've seen:
    1. The Shatterer
    2. Tequatl the Sunless
    3. Claw of Jormag (who is the ONLY notable exception thus far, this fight is pretty awesome)
    4. Zhaitan (don't get me started on how bad this fight is)

    So... why don't any of them do anything? Every dragon boss is easily defeated by having every single person (other than the five on the turrets) stand right next to the leg and practically never moving the entire fight. They don't swipe, they don't step on you (well they do, but this does 0 damage), they don't tail swipe, they don't bite, they do NOTHING... The only attacks most of them have is summoning minions or walls or crystals and occasionally a 'breath' attack that doesn't hit anybody. I think the only time I've taken damage in the encounters with Shatterer and Tequatl was from the adds.

    So, why didn't they add any other very simple attacks, such as one where they put their claw in the ground and swipe it back, hitting anyone in melee range that doesn't gtfo? Or some kind of AOE fireball breath attack when they fly up in the air that telegraphs where fireballs will land so people can dodge them? I mean things like this would still be incredibly easy to dodge, and admittedly they'd kind of have to be with that many players in the same spot. Seriously though, they need SOMETHING. Do you guys agree? I simply don't see an excuse for a massive dragon that takes over 10 seconds between each attack, and then doesn't really do anything anyway.

    Easiest boss I've fought: The Shatterer. You just stand there attacking his leg, and then eventually you attack the crystals that heal him, and go back to attacking his leg.

    Hardest boss I've fought: Champion Giant in Diessa Plataeu. This thing did a very lightly telegraphed stomp attack that literally killed up to 10 random people in the area, regardless of range or LOS.

    I'd say the perfect boss is somewhere between those two! Not asking for a LOT of mechanics, but please, more than two attacks that don't hurt anybody.
    Last edited by Artorias; 2012-09-07 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral kliffharry's Avatar
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    I do agree, but I also see open world events as something that should be playable for everyone. Not everyone have raid experience and this might be their very first MMORPG. If they overcomplicate these fights then MAYBE the majority of players in the game will shy away from these events, and you end up with like 10 people doing them on every server.

  3. #3
    Totally agree with you. I was expecting these dragons to be pinnacle of PvE here, but it's just shoot and dodge mechanic we're doing through whole game.
    People bash WoW because top guild cleared DS in first week, here we have much worse situation, these dragons are killed by anybody, they are just 3 hours respawn loot bags, for such important lore characters it's just a shame.
    my PSN ID - Kobold_Rider

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by kliffharry View Post
    I do agree, but I also see open world events as something that should be playable for everyone. Not everyone have raid experience and this might be their very first MMORPG. If they overcomplicate these fights then MAYBE the majority of players in the game will shy away from these events, and you end up with like 10 people doing them on every server.
    That's the thing, I know you have to accommodate for 30+ people doing it at the same time, many of which might not want a super hard raid boss, but I'm not asking for a super hard raid boss :P I'm just asking for literally one or two attacks that might do damage to people. Primarily some kind of claw attack that hits people standing around the front legs, or a tail swipe that hits people around the back legs. Nothing that instakills or anything, but does like half your health (I mean c'mon it's a huge freaking dragon it should at least tickle). Besides, with it being so incredibly huge, it should be very easy to telegraph such attacks so people don't die every time they attack. After getting hit once, they should be able to figure it out!

    The best would be something like when the Shatterer flies up in the air, he could do a fireball-style breath attack that rains down moderately large fireballs (with little rings on the ground to know where to avoid). This stuff wouldn't make the encounter hard, but it would at least make it engaging.

  5. #5
    Of the above mentioned, I only fought The Shatterer. And he played exactly the same as the Shadow Elemental in the human starting zone. Attack him, attack portals/crystals, attack adds, repeat. And he does AoE.

    At least SOMETHING would be appreciated. At least the dungeond get better later on.

  6. #6
    I don't know how to toggle spoiler black thingy, so I changed the color on the text, mark to see what I wrote.

    -I was slightly disappointed on the Zhaitan fight, he pretty much just showed up, flew around the airship, and the only thing you did was killing minions, I wanted to attack him god damnit!

    The only time you got to do something against him was when he clinged to the already broken tower... doing nothing, and you got to mount the cannons, but he didn't do anything at that either, he didn't summon any more minions, he didn't push me off the cannon, nothing, I just stood there pressing 2 until his hp was down.
    -

  7. #7
    Technically dragons like that should one shot all people in the area with one siwing os theirs arm .

    And Zhaitan is indeed very disappointing...The size of him, the mechanics. He's design and animations on the other hand are fuckin awesome.

    I expected Zhatian to be at least 5-8 times bigger. The mechanics... We would be fighting on his back and this area would be filled with an epic jumping puzzles, striking his weak points in the meantime fighting with the champions that he spawns. At the same time Asuras and Charrs would chase Zhatian around Tyria striking him from the airships. Sylvari ppl would create bridges from the trees, ppl and norns would assist our team with killing spawns. The last fight before we get to his "brain" should be with the dragon that is ripped off from his jaw, that would be the size of The Shatterer. After we defeat this mini dragon, we would go inside his head and fight with his brain and champion spawns, then when we kill the "brain" we would have to escape on the ship, after that Zhaitan explodes, leaving head only with those awesome mini dragons as his tongue. Then the last fight of this encounter would be fighting with these dragons, every dragon would posses different skills based on attunements of death, fear and destruction. After killing one dragon, the rest would acquire skills of the defeated. When the last dragons dies, we get experience, loot and the title "Elder Dragon Slayer" for the rest of our lifes . The fight would take approximately 1-2 hours . If only ArenaNet had resources and technology, we would see fight like that, be we have to face the reality, the engine wouldn't handle this
    Last edited by Nehezbegar; 2012-09-07 at 12:43 PM.
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    wisdom is better than silver and gold"


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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiserne Drossel View Post
    I don't know how to toggle spoiler black thingy, so I changed the color on the text, mark to see what I wrote.
    Just click it!

    Also I completely agree. The Zhaitan fight... was a disappointment.

  9. #9
    I have to agree, I've done most of these quite often and honestly.. Past the initial "That looks awesome" factor they are quite dull and pose little to no threat.
    Shatterer and Sunless especially are absolute snore-fests sadly. They look amazing, but that's about it.

  10. #10
    Yeah, pretty boring fights. Just stand and dps.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Abstieg's Avatar
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    Tequatl the Sunless is the only one I've fought so far, and yes, he is disappointing. Epic looking, but when every mechanic he throws out can be safely ignored and I never see anyone take any damage, it's a bit boring. Also, credit for him seems to bug out, or there are just too many people around to get participation credit every time.

  12. #12
    Well the "hard" DEs are designed to be for max level zones. Most of the altar bosses are pretty tough, and you can't really just zerg them down. Claw of Jormag is a long fight with many different mechanics to tend with. The Shatterer (Level 50 zone) and Tequatl (Level 65) are designed as a sort of introductory to DEs with multiple things to do. They aren't hard, but they also aren't one trick ponies.

    I do wish they would have put more level 80 dragons/big bosses in. But maybe in the future.

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans Abstieg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodrin View Post
    Well the "hard" DEs are designed to be for max level zones. Most of the altar bosses are pretty tough, and you can't really just zerg them down. Claw of Jormag is a long fight with many different mechanics to tend with. The Shatterer (Level 50 zone) and Tequatl (Level 65) are designed as a sort of introductory to DEs with multiple things to do. They aren't hard, but they also aren't one trick ponies.

    I do wish they would have put more level 80 dragons/big bosses in. But maybe in the future.
    Tequatl is a one trick pony. He may do other stuff, but nothing is relevant. Stand and dps. Oh, run back after fear.

  14. #14
    The claw of jormag still can be just zerged down and it's a level 80 event when he switches to the 2nd platform for example the majority of people just stand on the ice and pew pew him in classic zerg style, die in the process and beg for revive which is obviously not what you're supposed to be doing.

    In essence if you want to make a challenging encounter the number of players participating need to be capped since everything can be trivialized to nothing with infinite amount of players, world event bosses are just there to get easy access to gearing up.
    Last edited by Isheria; 2012-09-07 at 01:37 PM.

  15. #15
    While the claw of jormag may be a dragon, it is not jormag himself, just one of his lieutenants. Could possibly be a much more epic fight later on?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodrin View Post
    Claw of Jormag is a long fight with many different mechanics to tend with.

    I can agree with long one, but it's not a measure of anything, in fact long = more boring in that case.
    I did it once, got some random loot not for my class (even new LFR doing this better now), and I'm not going to do it ever again.
    Lets sum it up:
    -no challange
    -no fun
    -long and boring
    -no meaningful rewards
    what's the reason to do it then?

    Hell, in WoW people are farming same old content for months, even when they don't need gear anymore, just for enjoyment of doing something fun with your guild.
    Guess Blizzard is doing something right then.
    my PSN ID - Kobold_Rider

  17. #17
    Epic=/=hard.

    I don't think they're meant to be a huge challenge, honestly, if they're not in one of the highest level zones or in a dungeon. I do agree that there should be some sort of mechanic to end the fight though...

    Since I've only fought Tequatl, the easiest way I can see the fight being more challenging yet still being viable is this:
    -People, for the most part, ignore the walls/turrets at some point because the risen stand in the back (the horde does) and they don't go near Tequatl. Because of this, it makes more sense to let the turrets and big laser just get owned, and whack away at the boss while avoiding breath and stomps (I see people go down, it's hard to see the red circles in the water).

    Fix: Once Tequatl is down to 0 (or in this case, 1) health, make it so the ONLY way he dies is by one final shot of the Asura laser - can also be if he's at, say 50k health and the laser does 75k, he dies also. This means players have to either keep it from being controlled by Risen the whole fight, or get it back after he's at 1 - also means bone walls need to fall, and risen need to be cleared. It would make more sense IMO. Makes the "we need people to fight the risen back here" more appealing and required. More incentive to work together and split as well. I'm a genius. Note: I play an Asuran Guardian
    Last edited by WorldofWorkcraft; 2012-09-07 at 03:22 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Absolutist View Post
    While the claw of jormag may be a dragon, it is not jormag himself, just one of his lieutenants. Could possibly be a much more epic fight later on?
    Wouldn't count on it, look up the Zhaitan fight :\

  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans Abstieg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorldofWorkcraft View Post

    Fix: Once Tequatl is down to 0 (or in this case, 1) health, make it so the ONLY way he dies is by one final shot of the Asura laser - can only be if he's at, say 50k health and the laser does 75k, he dies also. This means players have to either keep it from being controlled by Risen the whole fight, or get it back after he's at 1 - also means bone walls need to fall, and risen need to be cleared. It would make more sense IMO. Makes the "we need people to fight the risen back here" more appealing and required. More incentive to work together and split as well. I'm a genius. Note: I play an Asuran Guardian
    I think this makes perfect sense.

  20. #20
    These are the same people that cannot or will not press a single purple button in Dragon Soul LFR.

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