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  1. #1
    Blademaster Pampar's Avatar
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    Elemental DPS seems bottlenecked?!

    Hi guys

    I need some help with my Elemental DPS. Lately I have been looking at some of the top DPS elementals in the EU and USA and all are stacking mastery gems or Intellect & Mastery, they aim for about 90% Mastery and approx around 33-34% Haste.

    I tried what they are doing as there dps is very high but my DPS has actually got worse..?!

    Before I was trying to go for an even Mastery and Haste balance and my DPS was strong, but still felt it I wasn't hitting the number I should be hitting.
    I have been playing elemental for a very long time and always got very high dps and was good with moving and surviving in fights.

    I tried Ask Mr Robot sometime before and it seem ok, but as I said all top Shamans are stacking Mastery and for life of me I dont know why mine feels so low. before I was hitting like the top 5 DPS now I am in the 10's =/


    Logs this weeks fight on Iron Juggernaut 25m HC.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...=10181&e=10608

    Log couple weeks ago before reforging on Iron Juggernaut 25m HC.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=7097&e=7482

    You can see a massive difference.

    My armoury:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Pampar/simple

    I have been following Leedsiboy from Method.

    Also one other question why are top DPS elemental going for Kardris' Toxic Totem instead of Black Blood of Y'sharrj?

    Many Thanks

    Pampar
    Last edited by Pampar; 2014-04-06 at 09:15 PM.

  2. #2
    rng is rng? i was getting 397k~ dps at iron jugg on 25 heroic which at the time was world 5th, now i'm a few item levels higher on a good try i can be 420k and with bad procs sub 400k which is what i was getting with less gear.

    also one kill is 7:07 and the other 6:24 speed of kill makes a huge difference, i basically cannot rank 5th anymore due to my guild being unable to kill it in like 3:40.

    at 6:15 you will have made full use of a 3rd ascendance and 2nd fire ele, the next 50 seconds to your 7:07 kill your dps only gets lower.
    Last edited by Socialhealer; 2014-04-06 at 09:16 PM.

  3. #3
    Blademaster Pampar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    rng is rng? i was getting 397k~ dps at iron jugg on 25 heroic which at the time was world 5th, now i'm a few item levels higher on a good try i can be 420k and with bad procs sub 400k which is what i was getting with less gear.

    also one kill is 7:07 and the other 6:24 speed of kill makes a huge difference, i basically cannot rank 5th anymore due to my guild being unable to kill it in like 3:40.

    Nah this is not the reason, all bosses I am on now I am doing much lower DPS than before.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Pampar View Post
    Also one other question why are top DPS elemental going for Kardris' Toxic Totem instead of Black Blood of Y'sharrj?
    Either because they did not get it in the same quality,

    or

    because elemental does not really benefit from the BBoY proc, since they do not have any strong dots they could refresh at high stacks, thus multistrike trinket is better, sinsce the haste on BBoY is not gonna make up the ~5% multistrike dmg

  5. #5
    Plain rng, man.

    Look at what the "stats" are.

    In your earlier fight, you have 70 overloads to 74 casts for lavaburst while in your latest, you have 70 overloads to 84 casts - 95% to 85%.
    Also much less lightning bolt critical hits in your latest fight than in your earlier.
    Further, your spells dealt more dmg on average in your earlier fight.

    It's just rng, guess the same applies to all the other fights.

    Also, keep in mind that haste is actually better on single target fights, but most shamans prefer mastery heavy builds because of the many cleave fights and because mastery is not so far behind.

  6. #6
    Blademaster Pampar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xentres View Post
    Plain rng, man.

    Look at what the "stats" are.

    In your earlier fight, you have 70 overloads to 74 casts for lavaburst while in your latest, you have 70 overloads to 84 casts - 95% to 85%.
    Also much less lightning bolt critical hits in your latest fight than in your earlier.
    Further, your spells dealt more dmg on average in your earlier fight.

    It's just rng, guess the same applies to all the other fights.

    Also, keep in mind that haste is actually better on single target fights, but most shamans prefer mastery heavy builds because of the many cleave fights and because mastery is not so far behind.
    ok Thanks Xentres.

    I have gemmed for 94% Mastery as many tops eles are doing this it seems. So I will see on Wednesday if DPS improves as tonight I only had 84% mastery.

  7. #7
    Brewmaster Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pampar View Post
    ok Thanks Xentres.

    I have gemmed for 94% Mastery as many tops eles are doing this it seems. So I will see on Wednesday if DPS improves as tonight I only had 84% mastery.
    It's barely anything to do with RNG. Why on earth are you gemming pure Mastery (in literally everything)?!

    For the record, Mastery barely sims higher than 2x Intellect (to make it worth gemming). This means you'd definitely want to hit any Intellect socket bonus, you're literally wasting hundreds of stats.

    There is no 'aiming for 94% Mastery', it just happens to be what they managed to get to in their gear. Mastery has no magic caps of any sort so it really doesn't matter what your Mastery is. BiS gear just happens to give you 90%+ Mastery and 33%+ Haste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pampar View Post
    Also one other question why are top DPS elemental going for Kardris' Toxic Totem instead of Black Blood of Y'sharrj?
    Kardris sims higher than Black Blood. We aren't a DoT class, the proc is borderline useless for us beyond the obvious and FS wouldn't even be worth renewing if you'd just applied one. Black Blood is ok if you can't get an equal item level Kardris.

    EDIT: Sorry if I came across as rude. You mentioned AskMrRobot, I believe it actually has a Mastery Build setting that you can change it to, you may find that useful.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    There is no 'aiming for 94% Mastery', it just happens to be what they managed to get to in their gear. Mastery has no magic caps of any sort so it really doesn't matter what your Mastery is. BiS gear just happens to give you 90%+ Mastery and 33%+ Haste.
    Can't stress that point enough. There is nothing to aim for as an Elemental Shaman other than 'sweet spots'. That is, if you're doing a single target fight vs a multi-target vs. a full cleave vs. a helta skelta boss, your stat priorities change SIGNIFICANTLY as an elemental shaman.

    If you want massive logs for a particular fight, you need to gem according to the requirements of that fight (e.g. galakras gem full mastery vs an Iron Jugg full haste vs. int/mastery build).

    The entire way through prog I was adjusting my gemming/enchanting/reforging to specifically allow me to have more cleave or more single target depending on the fight. If you want an all-round sort of experience (assuming you have meta/cloak), just aim for as much mastery as possible utilizing int/mastery gems where possible (as Anzen stated above).

  9. #9
    Why are you using healing shoulders? Also, intellect still is a pretty good stat for us, so ignoring all socket bonuses is not the best idea.
    Last edited by QuiksLE; 2014-04-07 at 08:39 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by QuiksLE View Post
    Why are you using healing shoulders? Also, intellect still is a pretty good stat for us, so ignoring all socket bonuses is not the best idea.
    Because if you can't get the shoulders from dark shamans the healing tier is significantly higher dps gain, unless you have heroic warforged gloves from... galakras or whatever they're from. Or a token for the random boss drop gloves.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by fearom View Post
    Because if you can't get the shoulders from dark shamans the healing tier is significantly higher dps gain, unless you have heroic warforged gloves from... galakras or whatever they're from. Or a token for the random boss drop gloves.
    But 1185 haste and 305 mastery is better than 444 haste and 894 mastery. Plus the irrelevant but still a dps gain crit bonus from elemental tier shoulders.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by QuiksLE View Post
    But 1185 haste and 305 mastery is better than 444 haste and 894 mastery. Plus the irrelevant but still a dps gain crit bonus from elemental tier shoulders.
    As a straight figure, yes it is. Now take reforging and gemming into consideration. You'll find that the by using these shoulders you net a higher overall dps increase due to your ability to drop spirit in other locations.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by fearom View Post
    As a straight figure, yes it is. Now take reforging and gemming into consideration. You'll find that the by using these shoulders you net a higher overall dps increase due to your ability to drop spirit in other locations.
    That may be true in few occasions, but in his, he is 1.81% over the cap. If he would drop the healing shoulders and pick up dps one, he would get a huge increase in haste and a low decrease in mastery. And he would go slightly under the hit cap, which is OK.
    He would go 94.39%->92.26% in mastery and 33.78%->35.76% haste if he would switch to ele tier.

    EDIT: Now that I think of it, don't know how big of a upgrade it would be but whatever Just feels wrong running around with healing set :P
    Last edited by QuiksLE; 2014-04-07 at 01:56 PM.

  14. #14
    Blademaster Pampar's Avatar
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    Yea I went with Healing ones to stack mastery, I am experimenting with stats atm. I do have the DPS Shoulders in my bags. I tried my DPS with mastery gemmed but seems to reduce DPS, especially in Single target (but that is obvious) I wanted to test on Galakras HC 25 but I did try aoeing some other mobs and my dps still low.


    From this point I am not sure for go for a Haste > Mastery or Mastery = Haste instead of doing Mastery > Haste.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Pampar View Post
    Yea I went with Healing ones to stack mastery, I am experimenting with stats atm. I do have the DPS Shoulders in my bags. I tried my DPS with mastery gemmed but seems to reduce DPS, especially in Single target (but that is obvious) I wanted to test on Galakras HC 25 but I did try aoeing some other mobs and my dps still low.


    From this point I am not sure for go for a Haste > Mastery or Mastery = Haste instead of doing Mastery > Haste.
    I feel like you REALLY need to gem more int man. You are like 4k SP lower than my shaman is, even with that extra Mastery I am going to get proc's almost as often as you do but my abilities will hit for significantly more.

    Playing an Ele at the moment is really about balancing your stats out.

  16. #16
    Blademaster Pampar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fearom View Post
    I feel like you REALLY need to gem more int man. You are like 4k SP lower than my shaman is, even with that extra Mastery I am going to get proc's almost as often as you do but my abilities will hit for significantly more.

    Playing an Ele at the moment is really about balancing your stats out.
    I agree. I am about to change things around.

    The choice I have though;

    Go for a single target build and go for Haste > Mastery - as on most of bosses will be generally single target i.e Immersues, Protectors, Nourshen, Sha, Juggernaut, Dark Shamans, Nazgrim, Malkorok etc nearly all of them.

    Whereas AoE Build Mastery > Haste - I would really only benefit from Galakras, a bit in Spoils and Phase 1 in Garrosh, So I see it as weaker spec, unless of course you are on progress and need spec for stronger AoE but Galakras is on farm.

    Last build is a Balance build Mastery = Haste - Gives you an even balance of DPS and AoE in fights but will not generally hit harder unless go for one of the builds above according to the type of fight i.e AoE or Single target

    So I will got for single target for now, thanks for all the feedback. Its great to pick everyone's brain (not like a certain shaman wouldn't help *cough*Leedsiboy*cough* )

    Only thing I am unsure is if to spec into Unleashed Fury I can see it best for fights involving a lot of movement, its an instant cast no GCD and working with Elemental Overload by stacking for more Mastery. On other hand Elemental Blast I can see would be best for Haste build as it could increase more haste but not so great for movement fights.

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by Pampar; 2014-04-08 at 08:00 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pampar View Post
    I agree. I am about to change things around.

    The choice I have though;

    Go for a single target build and go for Haste > Mastery - as on most of bosses will be generally single target i.e Immersues, Protectors, Nourshen, Sha, Juggernaut, Dark Shamans, Nazgrim, Malkorok etc nearly all of them.

    Whereas AoE Build Mastery > Haste - I would really only benefit from Galakras, a bit in Spoils and Phase 1 in Garrosh, So I see it as weaker spec, unless of course you are on progress and need spec for stronger AoE but Galakras is on farm.

    Last build is a Balance build Mastery = Haste - Gives you an even balance of DPS and AoE in fights but will not generally hit harder unless go for one of the builds above according to the type of fight i.e AoE or Single target
    You are forgetting one thing, the builds are not Mastery>haste>crit, or Haste> mastery or whatever. It is int>haste=mastery>crit or int> mastery> haste.

    And you can't really go from one extreme to another. As fearom said above you need to balance things out.
    Last edited by QuiksLE; 2014-04-08 at 08:11 AM.

  18. #18
    Blademaster Pampar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuiksLE View Post
    You are forgetting one thing, the builds are not Mastery>haste>crit, or Haste> mastery or whatever. It is int>haste=mastery>crit or int> mastery> haste.

    And you can't really go from one extreme to another. As fearom said above you need to balance things out.
    Yea I know I am just shortening it, every Shaman should know Hit > Intellect are first and Crit is last.

    Well for me and what I am doing I rather go for a priority on haste for fights I am doing.

    Just to make fool proof

    Single Target - Hit > Intellect > Haste > Mastery > Crit
    Cleave Targets - Hit > Intellect > Mastery > Haste > Crit
    Balance Build - Hit > Intellect > Haste = Mastery > Crit

    Only thing I am unsure is if to spec into Unleashed Fury I can see it best for fights involving a lot of movement, its an instant cast no GCD and working with Elemental Overload by stacking for more Mastery. On other hand Elemental Blast I can see would be best for Haste build as it could increase more haste but not so great for movement fights.

    Your thoughts?
    Still unsure about this though.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pampar View Post
    every Shaman should know Hit > Intellect are first and Crit is last.
    Well for me and what I am doing I rather go for a priority on haste for fights I am doing.
    Just to make fool proof
    <Snip>
    Still unsure about this though.
    No this isn't actually correct. Int is NOT higher on priority, it's a bonus stat. If int was higher all top shamans would be gemming pure int gems, that just isn't the case.

    The true answer is that you MUST SimC your toon to achieve optimal results.

    The simplest way, however is; if you go full mastery you will suffer SLIGHTLY on single target fights. If you go full haste you will suffer immensely on multi-target fights (assuming a UF talent build). BUT if you go really far into mastery (with good gear) it's easy to go 95%+ mastery, whereas you could drop that say, 5% mastery and achieve higher DPS across a fight due to encounter mechanics differing, some single target, some cleave etc.

    So balancing your spec is the way to go. For you personally, you can keep basically everything the same, but swap out pure gems for int/mastery gems. Your dps should go up substantially on the majority of fights in SoO.

    Note: if you're looking to skyrocket in every fight there are ways you can gimp/cheese the situation by changing your build/spec on a fight by fight basis. But it's REALLY expensive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pampar View Post
    <snip>
    Still unsure about this though.
    Sorry missed the UF/EB thing.

    It isn't a movement consideration. The choice of UF or EB has nothing to do with movement and everything to do with what you're up against. You want to pick UF for any fight where you can sit on a target for longer than 15 seconds. If you are constantly target swapping between targets than you would want to go EB. If it's a pure AoE fight... well, just go with UF or Primal Elementalist if you fight you do nothing but Chain Lightning.

  20. #20
    Blademaster Pampar's Avatar
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    Thanks for info.

    But I will go for Haste > Mastery or Haste = Mastery later if I am not satisfied.

    My point is as I said before most fights are single target, Galakras only real one where AoE is used a lot of the time. I did test mastery and intellect gems for a raid and my dps on single boss dropped dramatically, maybe later when I am fully kitted out in Heroic gear it may work but at this time it did not justify itself. Even on Galakras I may have casted more bolts and lava bursts but overall damage was lower than of a Haste = Mastery build.

    So only option that works is either go Haste > Mastery or Balanced build. For now I will test Haste and compare on logs from previous weeks.

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