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  1. #1
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Interesting article about bigotry

    I was exposed to an interesting article today. Before I link: This article has nothing to do with, specifically, Guild Wars 2, though it is about online gaming. However, in light of all this vocal nonsense going about in regards to the GW2 code of conduct and how Arena Net responds and whatnot, I felt this was worth sharing with the rest of you here. Please, let's keep *ban* discussion to the ban thread - this thread is about a related, yet different, topic of building nicer communities and taking a stand against bigotry. (if the mods do feel it should just be merged, and therefore remain largely unseen, by all means - I'm no mod anyways)

    This article is about, primarily, men being men, instead of boys, and therefore treating women (and each other) properly. Yes, it's written by a man. But I think we can expand on the intent behind this article, especially considering the link at the end of the article (if you get a warning about that link, supposedly they were recently attacked by hackers, but I think they've cleaned it up? - seems there's groups out there against the very message that site stands for?).

    Here is the article/blog post/whatever: http://jezebel.com/5938972/a-call-to...for-decent-men

    This is not about "protecting women." It's about cleaning out the sewers that our games have become. This will not be easy and it will not be fun. Standing up to these little jerks will require the same courage from us that women like Anita Sarkeesian have already shown. We will become objects of hatred, ridicule, and contempt. Our manhood will be questioned. But if we remember who we are and stand strong together, we can beat them. In any case we won't be threatened with sexual violence the way women are. We have it easier than they do.
    Use your heavy man's hand in the online spaces where you go –- and especially the ones you control –- to demand courtesy and punish abuse. Don't just mute them. Report them, block them, ban them, use every weapon you have. (They may try to report us in return. That won't work. If you always behave with integrity, it will be clear who's in the right.)
    This, in a way, is one of Arena Net's biggest goals with this game, aside from making a fun new MMORPG. They want to build a nicer, cooperative community, and they've commented on this sort of thing all the time. You can see it in their standards for behavior, and how they react to said behavior. They very much want to take a stand for exactly this.

    The question is - will the rest of us, as gamers, stand with them?
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-06 at 12:56 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  2. #2
    I don't understand why the article needs to be about men treating women nicely. Why can't it just be about people treating everybody nicely? That's my big problem with people like Anita Sarkeesian. She only focuses on sexism and hate toward women. I guess that makes sense, with her being a feminist and all, but it still doesn't quite sit right with me. I dunno, I'm weird.

    I get what you're saying though, and so far I'm really happy with the GW2 community. Assholes will be assholes, and they are everywhere, but I think that the playstyle encouraging cooperative play is a good step forward in making a better community.

  3. #3
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wynnyelle View Post
    I don't understand why the article needs to be about men treating women nicely. Why can't it just be about people treating everybody nicely?
    Yeah, I don't get that either. I don't even agree with everything he has said, but I do fully agree with the intent behind it.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  4. #4
    Moderator aiko-chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wynnyelle View Post
    I don't understand why the article needs to be about men treating women nicely. Why can't it just be about people treating everybody nicely? That's my big problem with people like Anita Sarkeesian. She only focuses on sexism and hate toward women. I guess that makes sense, with her being a feminist and all, but it still doesn't quite sit right with me. I dunno, I'm weird.

    I get what you're saying though, and so far I'm really happy with the GW2 community. Assholes will be assholes, and they are everywhere, but I think that the playstyle encouraging cooperative play is a good step forward in making a better community.
    I agree, the distinction between sexes is annoying.

    Sadly the gaming community is too far gone. No amount of reporting/banning will fix it.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    I'm also constantly amazed by how the most respectful way to treat women, in the eyes of these imbeciles, is to treat them like children instead of equals to men. Then they go on about how sexism is wrong. Blows my mind every time. Nevermind the, in this article, explicitly stated premise that men are in fact superior to women... but yeah, sexism is wrong guys. Remember that the next time you see one of those weak women, and keep in mind that you need to protect her from things like harsh language, things her fragile little female mind couldn't possibly be equipped to handle on its own. Because she's a woman, and thus weak.

    And of course it's the responsibility of all men to deal with this problem, because - don't you know - people are defined by their genders, and you're responsible for the behaviour of everyone else of the smae gender as you. Keep that in mind. Your gender is important. You are judged by it. But sexism is wrong, guys. Keep that in mind. Try to keep both throughts in your head at the same itme. Ignore the discomfort; that's natural!

    I'm sorry, dude. I'm gonna treat individuals the same regardless of their gender, which means treating random women with the same occasional distain as I treat random men, and that goes for any other group of people as well - as if the groups don't exist at all! If you wanna go around treating people differently based on shit like that then be my guest, but don't around lecturing others on the topic of bigotry if you do.

    I'm sick of getting lectured on how bigotry is wrong by bigots.

  6. #6
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aikoyamamato View Post
    Sadly the gaming community is too far gone. No amount of reporting/banning will fix it.
    That ain't what the Union said about America!

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-05 at 08:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Nevermind the, in this article, explicitly stated premise that men are in fact superior to women...
    He did not say that:
    Men have more power than women: financially, politically, and physically.
    Objectively speaking, that statement is true, and the statement touches on why feminism is so popular these days.

    He also said nothing about treating women like children. He said this:
    If you don't treat women with courtesy and respect –- if you're still stuck in that "I hate girls" phase –- then no matter what age you are, you are a boy and not entitled to the privileges of adulthood
    This man is not at all making the claims you are - you're reading between the lines and imparting your own belief of what his opinion is. I'd dare say that he hates men, not women. He is explicitly calling a large number of men boys, and therefore treating a large number of men like children - not women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    And of course it's the responsibility of all men to deal with this problem, because - don't you know - people are defined by their genders, and you're responsible for the behaviour of everyone else of the smae gender as you. Keep that in mind. Your gender is important. You are judged by it. But sexism is wrong, guys. Keep that in mind. Try to keep both throughts in your head at the same itme. Ignore the discomfort; that's natural!
    Again, you're completely misreading what he has said. If you fight against sexist people, you have to realize how they see things. Plain and simple:

    Women can not solve this problem. A boy who hates girls and women simply isn't going to pay attention to a woman's opinion.
    That's the crux of the issue. He says it's our responsibility to do something about this, instead of sitting on the sidelines and watching, because we have the ability to do something about this, which is what many of us are doing. He nowhere has said that women are weak, it's that men who are sexist against women are largely not going to pay attention or care what women do or say.

    Back in the Civil War, it wasn't an army of slaves that fought against the Confederacy, it was the Union, with freed slaves in their army and on their side, who fought against the Confederacy, because they took a stand against something that they felt was wrong, and had the power to change.


    All this being said, can we please leave the gender equality/inequality crap out of this thread, and touch on the message this guy is trying to spread, while stupidly dumping on men? About taking a stand against bigotry?
    This is not about "protecting women." It's about cleaning out the sewers that our games have become.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-06 at 01:24 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    I'm also constantly amazed by how the most respectful way to treat women, in the eyes of these imbeciles, is to treat them like children instead of equals to men. Then they go on about how sexism is wrong. Blows my mind every time. Nevermind the, in this article, explicitly stated premise that men are in fact superior to women... but yeah, sexism is wrong guys. Remember that the next time you see one of those weak women, and keep in mind that you need to protect her from things like harsh language, things her fragile little female mind couldn't possibly be equipped to handle on its own. Because she's a woman, and thus weak.

    And of course it's the responsibility of all men to deal with this problem, because - don't you know - people are defined by their genders, and you're responsible for the behaviour of everyone else of the smae gender as you. Keep that in mind. Your gender is important. You are judged by it. But sexism is wrong, guys. Keep that in mind. Try to keep both throughts in your head at the same itme. Ignore the discomfort; that's natural!

    I'm sorry, dude. I'm gonna treat individuals the same regardless of their gender, which means treating random women with the same occasional distain as I treat random men, and that goes for any other group of people as well - as if the groups don't exist at all! If you wanna go around treating people differently based on shit like that then be my guest, but don't around lecturing others on the topic of bigotry if you do.

    I'm sick of getting lectured on how bigotry is wrong by bigots.
    Agree, women give birth, I think they can handle rude little boy talk.

  8. #8
    The main thing that stood out about that was being charged a small fine online.

    That sounds really good to be honest. ❤

  9. #9
    I agree with everything stated in the article in theory. but as others have said, It erks me bigtime that this stand is purely against sexism in general.

    today ive played, LoL, WoW, and some planetside 2, and war of the roses beta.. I encountered (not myself, just witnessed) flame wars in each one, with somebody being the victim of gay bashing, racial abuse, or various other colourful uses of the english language..

    point being.. the internet is a shady place. if something like this is to work, it needs to target the problem at the base level.. not just 'dont be mean to girls' it should be 'anonymity isnt a pass to be a dickhead to anyone.'

  10. #10
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miah View Post
    Agree, women give birth, I think they can handle rude little boy talk.
    "What's the big deal? It's harmless banter. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the game." To start with, it's our game, not yours, and we get to decide what's acceptable behavior. You meet our standards or you get out. Apart from that, nothing that is done with intent to cause hurt is harmless. The online abuse I have seen goes way beyond banter. Threats are not harmless, they are criminal acts.
    "But this is part of gamer culture! It's always been like this!" No, it is not. I've been gaming for over 40 years, and it has not always been like this. Yours is a nasty little subculture that arrived with anonymous online gaming, and we're going to wipe it out.
    "This is just political correctness." Invoking "political correctness" is nothing but code for "I wanna be an asshole and get away with it." I'll give you a politically-incorrect response, if you like: fuck that. It's time to man up. You don't get to be an asshole and get away with it.
    Yeah, just saying... nobody has said that women, and just women, can't.

    The guy who wrote this article is saying that nobody should.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-05 at 08:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Raldazzar View Post
    I agree with everything stated in the article in theory. but as others have said, It erks me bigtime that this stand is purely against sexism in general.

    today ive played, LoL, WoW, and some planetside 2, and war of the roses beta.. I encountered (not myself, just witnessed) flame wars in each one, with somebody being the victim of gay bashing, racial abuse, or various other colourful uses of the english language..

    point being.. the internet is a shady place. if something like this is to work, it needs to target the problem at the base level.. not just 'dont be mean to girls' it should be 'anonymity isnt a pass to be a dickhead to anyone.'
    I'm glad you get it!

    I'd rather not discuss the sexism topic at all, and focus on the intent behind this post, and especially the intent of this thread.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  11. #11
    I'll stand with them.

    After they put the same amount of effort into the game as they have been trying to clean it up. then maybe it wouldn't have launched in the shape it's in.
    Apply blizzards model to any other subscription service,you'd be outraged:
    Netflix adds no new movies for a year, you click a new movie, there's a $5 fee.
    You're in an accident, click your onstar button, but there's an addition $20 fee for them to help.
    You turn on your tv only to find all you get are the infomercial channels. Every other show is pay per view.
    See how dumb that model is?

  12. #12
    Read the whole article and the only conclusion i've come to is that the author is some old man who was bullied as a kid and also just can't accept the fact that times change, people change, and that there will always be assholes and jerks, no matter what.
    If we're talking about online harassment - the ones being harassed can always report/ignore the ones that do harass them.
    From my 6 years of playing wow i haven't seen any direct sexism, in fact i've only seen the opposite - females had more benefits and more attention from most, the others ,including myself, were indifferent.

    IMHO - he should stop whiteknighting and mind his own business, but then again, this isn't my business so i don't really care.

  13. #13
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strah View Post
    Read the whole article and the only conclusion i've come to is that the author is some old man who was bullied as a kid and also just can't accept the fact that times change, people change, and that there will always be assholes and jerks, no matter what.
    If we're talking about online harassment - the ones being harassed can always report/ignore the ones that do harass them.
    From my 6 years of playing wow i haven't seen any direct sexism, in fact i've only seen the opposite - females had more benefits and more attention from most, the others ,including myself, were indifferent.

    IMHO - he should stop whiteknighting and mind his own business, but then again, this isn't my business so i don't really care.
    If you read the whole article... I find it funny you say that he's white-knighting, considering he preemptively responded to such an accusation. O_o

    The thing is, that we shouldn't just sit on the side and ignore that this stuff happens. Sure - it's not that hard to tolerate it. But should we honestly HAVE to? Has society just decided "Well, nothing we can do about it, so we'll just deal with it" like it's perfectly okay for people to be jerks?
    Very irresponsible.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    If you read the whole article... I find it funny you say that he's white-knighting, considering he preemptively responded to such an accusation. O_o
    Yeah, that does not change the fact that he is whiteknighting.

  15. #15
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strah View Post
    Yeah, that does not change the fact that he is whiteknighting.
    This is not about "protecting women." It's about cleaning out the sewers that our games have become.
    Maybe, but I don't see why that matters.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  16. #16
    a little light hearted misogyny is never a bad thing.

    if women can't take a "get back to the kitchen" joke, then all hope is lost.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer KingHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strah View Post
    Yeah, that does not change the fact that he is whiteknighting.
    "Whiteknighting" is a term made up by children who don't like being shown that they're children by the grown ups.

    http://mankindproject.org/ <--- Educate yourselves.
    I don't argue to be right, I argue to be proven wrong. Because I'm aware that the collective intelligence of the community likely has more to offer to me by enlightening me, than I do to an individual by "winning" an argument with them.
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  18. #18
    The Patient Nyctanessa's Avatar
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    Thank you for posting this, Drake. It's good that someone can see the big picture instead of being caught up on semantics.
    You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Maybe, but I don't see why that matters.
    I can't even express my opinion properly here to be honest. I'll just TL;DR it :
    All people have got a dark side. Anonymity, which is provided by the internet lets all those people open up that dark side and show their inner selves.
    And there's jack shit we can do about it, so the only thing the whiteknights can do is suck it up, really.
    A call to arms against anonymous sexists on the internet? I mean, jeez

  20. #20
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strah View Post
    I can't even express my opinion properly here to be honest. I'll just TL;DR it :
    All people have got a dark side. Anonymity, which is provided by the internet lets all those people open up that dark side and show their inner selves.
    And there's jack shit we can do about it, so the only thing the whiteknights can do is suck it up, really.
    A call to arms against anonymous sexists on the internet? I mean, jeez
    There's a lot we can do about it. Arena Net is showing one of the quickest and easiest ways to going about it. This kind of fight is one of those never-ending fights that all people have to play a part in, regardless of how small. Including things like how we raise our children and how we interact with other people.

    Will we ever fully clear the entire world in one sweeping gesture with one end-all solution? No, of course not, and nobody's making such a claim.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-06 at 01:45 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

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