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  1. #1

    Rogues why so many specs

    Play the class with numbers hidden,create macros with /start attack and abilitys, chose icons that look the same for all specs, so same icon for SS mutilate and for backstab.Do the same for all other abilitys like slice and dice and rupture. Do the same for all finishers.
    Hide the dps numbers and healing numbers from poping up in your UI (so you can see and avoid the fire)

    What do we get?

    We get a rogue that plays the same regardless of spec, we get a rogue that looks the same regardless of spec we get a rogue that may as well be a warrior or ret paladin regardless of spec.The only thing that changes are cool downs, mutilates hunger for blood or what ever its called, combats blade flurry and subs dance mode central

    Why do we get this?

    Surely if druids can get 4 "Specializations" we can get 1, if they recognize the need for a 4th spec then surely they can recognize that 1 spec is enough for rogues. We already choose freely the cool ability's in the Talent system right.

    Why the double standards?

    Is it not pointless to have 3 specs "just cause"
    With a perk system, we are halfway there to being only 1 spec, whats the point of having 3, all 3 play the same or very close anyway minus a few gimics and cool downs.
    Last edited by Superp; 2012-09-15 at 01:33 AM.

  2. #2
    Double standard or not, the rogue class was the class that got least amount of work in MOP. There's enough proof in the talents, skills and glyphs, plus the homogeneization of the specs as you point out.

    I really don't know why they had to break the 4.3 specs. All three played differently enough and tweaking numbers is usually enough to shift the power from one spec to another, no need to break things and make them less interesting.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  3. #3
    With your logic same goes with mages, hunters, warlocks and Deathknights too.

    When I think about it everything but healers are about buttonsmashing.
    So I propose we rework all classes and just have 2. Either you can pick the healing class or the buttonsmashing class.
    And we should be given a macro that uses the best ability available so we dont have to spam diffrent buttons.

    Mod edit: Note DATE of post, and that this isn't a regular rogue poster. Read past this before responding.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-01-03 at 06:11 PM.

  4. #4
    With mages the spells they use changes the rotation changes
    what do we do?

    Well iam sub so i get slice and dice and rupture up and combo gen and finisher
    Well iam combat so i get slice and dice up and rupture then combo gen and finisher
    Well screw that guys iam mutiliate so i get slice and dice, rupture and then i combo gen and finisher

    However 1 or 2 long cool downs are not enough to define a spec, Its just silly. Turn the numbers off and the gameplay is the same, so why have 3 unique butterflys when 1 fat one could do it all.

    With the Talent system we are already halfway their, whats the point. They clearly recognize that some classes should fill 3 and now 4 roles

    Why do hunters, mages, warlocks and rogues have 3 specs? Is it just the case of well everyone has 3 specs and so you get 3?
    I am just worried because what if they decide well druids get 4 specs so everyone gets 4 specs.The new rogue spec would be called space butterlfy spec.The rotation for that spec would also be, Slice and dice, rupture combo gen and finisher

    Its like being told to write 3 books on what happened to me yesterday, 1 is stretching it but 3 is silly

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-09 at 04:13 PM ----------

    I dont mean to be rude and iam not trolling, I have played wow for so long and everything feels the same now, I just dont get it
    Last edited by Superp; 2012-09-15 at 01:36 AM.

  5. #5
    Rogue is easy to learn, but to push the top dps takes quite a bit more than what you are suggesting. Of course this is true of all classes. As far as homogenization goes, if you don't see the difference between mutilate single target dps and combats ability to have a strong cleave on boss+add fights, then perhaps you should examine them a little closer. Also, maximizing combat dps by reducing cd timers requires that we adopt different strategies for different fights. You can keep your simplified rotations and do adequate dps, but if you really want to push the highest numbers and rank among the top rogues, your gonna have to do more.

  6. #6
    I have been ranked on world of logs for baleroc 10 - 378 gear, think i was 45 or 47 or something back then, this has changed now ofc,
    I have pushed hard mode sub to the limits of what it can do, thats beside the point.

    The point is aside from cool down management the specs all play the same to an extent, Long cooldowns cannot define a spec its wrong

    Iam not trying to argue who is the best or which spec pumps out the most. Like i said if you turn the numbers off and forget about recount, all the specs play the same minus the gimmics and cooldowns

    Why do we have 3 specs there is not enough to go on for 3 specs
    Last edited by Superp; 2012-09-15 at 01:38 AM.

  7. #7
    There are so many ways to fix the situation without breaking anything like devs worry about.
    You can have new mechanics like the legendary proc, clearcast procs, combat blindside like new procs, etc.

    The problem is based on a patch back in tbc (iirc) when they buffed so much SND to compensate for finishers nerf due to pvp reasons hence making passive auto attack damage extremely high.

    In my imaginary world, the class would have 1 pvp spec,1 pve spec and 1 utility spec. For example I get assasination as main PVE spec, combat as main PVP spec and Subtety as ...a buffer/debuffer/supporter that can play important role in both pve and pvp scenarios.

    Playstyle wise, combat exists only because of cleave and all specs as mentioned have same cycles.

    Why should asssination have snd in first place if its to be auto refreshed? Remove it and buff dispatch?
    Why should combat have to rupture? Replace it with a dot/debuff that transforms your attacks to magic type like shadow blades cd.
    Why should sub have to use eviscerate? Replace it with a finisher that enables shadow dance.

    My point is that there are many possible solutions to enhance gaming experience without breaking anything.

    In case people havent noticed, the class right now is identical to vanilla and tbc when rogues rotation was 4 CP snd, 5 CP Rupt, 4-5 CP evis.

  8. #8
    I certainly agree that our specs are far too similar, but there is way too much massive over generalization in the OP and catablitz's post. Could you get away with what the OP says, or the tbc rotation cata mentions? Sadly, that probably would do decently. However, that is a huge over generalization as much has changed. The biggest for combat I would say is the randomness to the combo points. In TBC you had a completely static rotation as you knew exactly how many times you needed to SS before each finisher which isn't the case anymore. You also have to watch RvS and tricks. Sub has to keep up a 2nd dot and manage cp procs. Assassination has to manage the envenom buff and blindside procs. We didn't have any of that in TBC (well granted combat was the only decent pve spec outside of possibly harp's short lived usefulness) and all of that is not going to get copied if you do what the OP suggests. So yeah, you could do either of those 2 things, but you also now have the option to do more, and thats still ignoring the long cd's.

    A massive over generalization like that is a really crappy way to start your argument.

  9. #9
    Epic! Phookah's Avatar
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    What's not to understand?
    Assassination = Poison damage, mutilates
    Combat = extremely fast play (almost GCD locked), finishers lower remaining duration of CD's
    Subtlety = Constant stream of CP, big finishers, focus on stealth

  10. #10
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    What's not to understand?
    Assassination = Poison damage, mutilates
    Combat = extremely fast play (almost GCD locked), finishers lower remaining duration of CD's
    Subtlety = Constant stream of CP, big finishers, focus on stealth
    Choosing between dealing more nature or physical passive damage doesn't make any difference in gameplay at all.

    Combat isn't an extremely fast spec nor is it GCD capped anymore (the new glyph of Adrenaline Rush makes it very unlikely). You're saying it like it's some kind of class-defining perk instead of a side effect of high haste levels at end gear. Combat in t14hc BiS gear is a slow spec with more than 33% waiting time. A extremely fast spec would be Frost DKs during Cataclysm, but I'm not sure if this holds true on MoP.

    Subtely's use of stealth is nothing more but a wonky way of dps cooldown, there's nothing stealthy about it, it's just a Vendetta which needs 2 key presses instead of 1.

  11. #11
    Epic! Phookah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    Choosing between dealing more nature or physical passive damage doesn't make any difference in gameplay at all.

    Combat isn't an extremely fast spec nor is it GCD capped anymore (the new glyph of Adrenaline Rush makes it very unlikely). You're saying it like it's some kind of class-defining perk instead of a side effect of high haste levels at end gear. Combat in t14hc BiS gear is a slow spec with more than 33% waiting time. A extremely fast spec would be Frost DKs during Cataclysm, but I'm not sure if this holds true on MoP.

    Subtely's use of stealth is nothing more but a wonky way of dps cooldown, there's nothing stealthy about it, it's just a Vendetta which needs 2 key presses instead of 1.
    You're being nit-picky. If you just say "dealing one kind of damage doesn't change gameplay" what about caster specs, like a mage? You could boil that down to "doing different kinds of elemental damage with some CD's". It's all in how you interpret it.

  12. #12
    Okay, we get it by now. These topics appear on a daily basis and it's starting to get very old. Yes we got the short end of the stick, we get it, there is nothing left to discuss. It sucks but deal with it.

    I'd say Assassination is still quite different thanks to the random Blindside proc and the execute phase, but meh I can see where you're coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by studkaw View Post
    With your logic same goes with mages, hunters, warlocks and Deathknights too.
    Have you actually played a Death Knight and Hunter past 5.0.4? I really don't agree, the specs are nothing alike and they play quite differently. Death Knights are going the wrong way though.
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  13. #13
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Okay, we get it by now. These topics appear on a daily basis and it's starting to get very old. Yes we got the short end of the stick, we get it, there is nothing left to discuss. It sucks but deal with it.
    Complaining is often the best tool for change, to be fair.

    As to the OP, I think you've exaggerated the situation a little, but your point holds water in my eyes. I fear it's going to feel even worse with the gear reset on the horizon.
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  14. #14
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    You're being nit-picky. If you just say "dealing one kind of damage doesn't change gameplay" what about caster specs, like a mage? You could boil that down to "doing different kinds of elemental damage with some CD's". It's all in how you interpret it.
    It doesn't change the fact that it doesn't change gameplay at all. I also didn't say that Rogues were the only class with such problems, I'm aware that mages seem to be on the same boat as us.

    The introduction of Dispatch as a proc was a step on the right direction, in my opinion.

    For Combat they could improve the concept of bandit's guile and make it into an alternative resource for Combat (the Eclipse bar of Moonkin comes to mind).

    Subtely needs something to make it attractive in PvE, it seems like it's the spec that has all the cons without the pros.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I certainly agree that our specs are far too similar, but there is way too much massive over generalization in the OP and catablitz's post. Could you get away with what the OP says, or the tbc rotation cata mentions? Sadly, that probably would do decently. However, that is a huge over generalization as much has changed. The biggest for combat I would say is the randomness to the combo points. In TBC you had a completely static rotation as you knew exactly how many times you needed to SS before each finisher which isn't the case anymore. You also have to watch RvS and tricks. Sub has to keep up a 2nd dot and manage cp procs. Assassination has to manage the envenom buff and blindside procs. We didn't have any of that in TBC (well granted combat was the only decent pve spec outside of possibly harp's short lived usefulness) and all of that is not going to get copied if you do what the OP suggests. So yeah, you could do either of those 2 things, but you also now have the option to do more, and thats still ignoring the long cd's.

    A massive over generalization like that is a really crappy way to start your argument.
    I dont mean to argue, but if I read you correctly your objection pertains to over generalization.
    Well, there is nothing overgeneralized when after 7 years the playstyle (for which this topic is about) has stayed almost identical and the fact that all 3 specs use this very same playstyle is also 7 years old.

    We dont need to be told the obvious. Of course there are differences between how specs fuction but at the end of the day, after 7 years, you still keep snd and rupture rolling and use envenom or eviscerate as a third finisher.

    Combat evolution is just a chance for an extra CP from SS. Your playstyle is the very old same one.
    Assasination evolution is just blindside as one of the last moment additions, to keep the spec on par with other two. Managing envenom buff was most of the time there and PW is just another reason to keep the same debuff up.
    Subtetly evolution was shadow dance. This is something that does change playstyle but funny enough the spec that has it STILL is using the very same combat 'rotation'.

    At the end of the day, every spec keeps up the same buff and the same debuff while rest CPs go to the same - fuction wise anyway- finisher.

    My point is that the above line could be written in 2005 vanilla beta and still be up to date!!!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Complaining is often the best tool for change, to be fair.

    As to the OP, I think you've exaggerated the situation a little, but your point holds water in my eyes. I fear it's going to feel even worse with the gear reset on the horizon.
    Its not a cool situation we are in, i dont want to cause trouble or anything, Just feel let down more than anything
    Last edited by Superp; 2012-09-15 at 01:38 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Complaining is often the best tool for change, to be fair.
    Normally yea, but I think we're past that point. People have brought this to Blizzard's attention time and time again and we got a grand total of one response, which is basically that they disagree.

    Maybe I'm just pessimistic but I completely gave up hope. I really wish we needed another Hunter in our raid team, but sadly we don't.
    Bovan.9481
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Complaining is often the best tool for change, to be fair.

    As to the OP, I think you've exaggerated the situation a little, but your point holds water in my eyes. I fear it's going to feel even worse with the gear reset on the horizon.
    Um, that depends entirely on how you complain. Complaining in a place where the people who can actually fix it are extremely unlikely to see is not a good for change. Thats like complaining verbally about politics while sitting in your living room. Change isn't going to come from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    I dont mean to argue, but if I read you correctly your objection pertains to over generalization.
    Well, there is nothing overgeneralized when after 7 years the playstyle (for which this topic is about) has stayed almost identical and the fact that all 3 specs use this very same playstyle is also 7 years old.

    We dont need to be told the obvious. Of course there are differences between how specs fuction but at the end of the day, after 7 years, you still keep snd and rupture rolling and use envenom or eviscerate as a third finisher.

    Combat evolution is just a chance for an extra CP from SS. Your playstyle is the very old same one.
    Assasination evolution is just blindside as one of the last moment additions, to keep the spec on par with other two. Managing envenom buff was most of the time there and PW is just another reason to keep the same debuff up.
    Subtetly evolution was shadow dance. This is something that does change playstyle but funny enough the spec that has it STILL is using the very same combat 'rotation'.

    At the end of the day, every spec keeps up the same buff and the same debuff while rest CPs go to the same - fuction wise anyway- finisher.

    My point is that the above line could be written in 2005 vanilla beta and still be up to date!!!
    My issue is that it was so over generalized it is entirely wrong. No, your line can't be up to date. There is more to it than SnD, Rupture, Evis at predetermined cp levels. They have in fact added quite a bit. Envenom wasn't useful until WotLK when they added the talent to not consume your dp stacks which is way after your TBC rotation where there was no option. You are forgetting RvS for combat which previously had to be used at a very specific cp level and now is another debuff to track in addition to rupture which can also be pooled around for a dps gain. Blind side may be tacked on, but it is still a brand new thing for rogues to have an offensive proc like that. The closest thing we had was riposte and that was pretty much never useful in raids and was a defensive proc. Sub's evolution was HAT and FW mainly. HAT caused you to need to pool around the incoming cp's to maximize your number of finishers and not waste extra cp's and FW caused you to manage 3 different cd's to keep up as much as possible (sd, vanish, prep). Now they didn't destroy the play style from TBC as you can certainly do that, but you are just ignoring quite a few additions that make a pretty decent dps difference in addition to making our "rotation" more complex.

    I agree that we got shafted, but it is no where near as bad as you or he claims it is.

  19. #19
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Um, that depends entirely on how you complain. Complaining in a place where the people who can actually fix it are extremely unlikely to see is not a good for change. Thats like complaining verbally about politics while sitting in your living room. Change isn't going to come from that.
    Sure, but I'm certain blues have stated they read other forums for ideas and feeback, they'd be fools not to, really. They just can't ever give an official response outside of the official forums, for obvious reasons.
    I am the lucid dream
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  20. #20
    You see the tree but you miss the forest. After 7 years the difference from vanilla beta of what you are supposed to do with your CPs is..... There is no difference!

    Every spec keeps snd up, every spec is using rupture and every spec has evisc ( same as envenom). The only difference right now is how you create CPs. For every spec you get 1 extra button mechanic.
    So you get a dispatch proc, an RS every 18 secs and a SD every min. This is how the class has evolved after 7 years. Now take a look at warriors, rets, hunters and the much younger DKs and maybe you will get to see what we mean by homogenized and archaic playstyle and lack of evolution.

    In my opinion it is that bad as many claim that it is. I agree with the moto that ' if its not broken dont try to fix it ' but the question here is that if in this case its true.

    Remember its not about whether you or me like or find it convenient or have simply get used to playstyle. It is about that after 7 years the playstyle of the class has evolved over 1 button per spec.

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