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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    But it doesn't.

    a) Everything in lore has depicted sha as being completely uncontrollable
    b) Warlocks deal with demons, it's what the class is. They don't get power "wherever they can take it" in that sense, otherwise they'd have absolutely no character, they'd just be an amalgamation of various bits 'n bobs gathered each expansion - we didn't go picking up undead thematics, despite necromancy being a perfectly attainable skill. We shouldn't be picking up sha thematics, especially since all lore has shown that it isn't a skill that can be attained. Mantid, Pandaren, the best in the horde - all failed to control the sha and ended up coming out of the other end worse off for it.

    Classes need character, you can't just go diluting it by shoehorning every flashy thing an expansion churns up into it, especially when it directly counters the very essence of said enemy and has no correlation to the class you're trying to ram it in to.

    I can kinda get the priest thing - shadow has lots of emotion thematics, but even then it's a stretch to imagine they can tame something that has been depicted in every depiction as being uncontrollable. People wanting sha-themed warlocks are making ridiculously asinine arguments though. I get it - you like how sha look, the infinite dragonflight looked cool too, doesn't mean we should become infinite dragonflight handlers.
    A)Check priests with the Sha-Touched staff/mace
    B)How about the twilight element (new thing) or the void? Do they have to do with demons? Only fel does.

    Its not about everything that looks cool. Its about a new dark theme that had us hyped with a new tier, several spells being black and white versions of our spells and several Sha whispering in your mind in demonic, similar to how the fel voices work according to quests and lore. On top of it, Sha looks like an immense force, not simply a spiritual thing(eg. Rommath looks ecstatic by consuming some of the essence and compares it to fel).

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    b) Warlocks deal with demons, it's what the class is. They don't get power "wherever they can take it" in that sense, otherwise they'd have absolutely no character, they'd just be an amalgamation of various bits 'n bobs gathered each expansion -
    they went to get the elemental fire from the firelands and the twilight power of the "dead light" parasites, the old gods. none of those have ANYTHING to do with demons.

    why didn't they pick necromancer stuff? I don't know. maybe they didn't want to. maybe they thought it was weak. maybe it was too much work to mix necromancy and fel magic together. maybe it's because necromancers favor frost spells and warlocks don't like ice (though the darkmaster of scholomance was last seen casting incinerates lol).

    the point is: warlocks DO take power from wherever they can. and THAT's their character. they are the guys who take power from wherever they can. demon power is very strong, and most people avoid it, so warlocks took it and it kind of became their signature, but imagine one day, warlocks discover some source of power that's even greater than fel magic, twilight energy or elemental fire. can you imagine them not trying to grab it and make it their own?

    of course, the sha isn't that powerful. but don't trick yourself into thinking warlocks are all about demons. they are all about power at any cost.

    (demon power is the coolest though. demonology for life )

    EDIT: also, warlocks can't get infinite dragonflight powers unless they turn into infinite dragonkin, and since murozond appeared to be well intentioned, I can't see him converting warlocks to help him create a better altered future for azeroth, so no dark time power for us
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  3. #123
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post

    why didn't they pick necromancer stuff? I don't know. maybe they didn't want to. maybe they thought it was weak. maybe it was too much work to mix necromancy and fel magic together. maybe it's because necromancers favor frost spells and warlocks don't like ice (though the darkmaster of scholomance was last seen casting incinerates lol).
    Actually, Warlocks DO have quite a few necromantic spells. Death Coil, Haunt, arguably Corruption, Soul Shards and/or Unstable Affliction (if you believe Necromancers have powers over magical diseases as well as over the dead). I do agree with you though, Warlocks are far more than Demon magic users, they take the power of the foes they have conquered to add to their own.*

    Lore perspective: I believe (not certain, but I think) Necromancy requires a certain lack of emotion, a coldness of the will. The same can be said of Ice magic, (which if I remember is the reason Forsaken mages more changed from the Fire spells they used in life to Ice magic in death). Warlocks are a fairly emotional class, Demonology focuses their rage to power their spells, and Destruction are absolutely chaotic, unable to stand still for a moment. Affliction is the slower, sadistic type of Warlock that power themselves with the suffering of their enemies, so they're the only ones that can stand the Necromancer magic that is said in lore to make one cold, unemotional and eventually decays the body even when alive.

    Game perspective: Necromancers were actually going to be a class in World of Warcraft. Before release, they decided to remove it fairly early on (I believe because it was too close to Warlocks) so it got melded into the Warlock class as Affliction (and possibly the Shadow spec too). So, Warlocks got a lot of semi-Necromancer esque spells. Of course, at first Warlocks were placed as the Demon class, and the Warlocks of WC3 were Demon worshippers, so in Vanilla Warlocks couldn't have out and out Necromancer spells. Burning Crusade, the shift to Demon enemies, and having Locks use anything else wasn't thought of. Then in Wrath, DKs were made (indeed, the DK is a combination class of the original potential Wrath classes: Runemaster, Death Knight and Necromancer) and Affliction Warlocks having Necromancer spells went from "sort of the unofficial Necromancers but not in gameplay" to "Any necromancer spells would either diminish, or be a copy of, Death Knights". Not to suggest this was a concious thought throughout game development, it's just my personal recollection of how the class developed.

    *That's right. We are the MEGAMAN class. (As opposed to Druids, who are the Kirby class through Symbiosis).

    On the topic of Sha power... Not sure if I'd agree with Warlocks gaining the power over a Sha. If anything, it seems more of a Shadow/Monk thing anyway. But, if it was a single spell or two that use the Warlock's raw emotions to fuel a Sha-esque spell, I'm happy about that. Maybe utility, maybe to cover some gaps in the rotations.
    Last edited by Queen Ultima; 2013-01-14 at 11:39 PM.

  4. #124
    I would like to know how Fel corruption would show on a Human warlock from starting of visible corruption to full on corruption.
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  5. #125
    Hilarious how he's saying necromancy has no place in the warlock class... Gul'dan being the most prominent warlock in wow lore dealt in necromancy.
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  6. #126
    Epic! Skayth's Avatar
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    Sha power? Pshhh, id rather become a demon than a possibly insane self destructive twilight minion. At least as a demon, i can come back to life, as long as i dont die in the twisting nether.

    But, in honestly, sha power is the power of the old gods, which is the power of the twilight. Soooo. we technically already have some sha powers? O.o

    I can see us using sha power, but I would rather wield fel energies of demons and chaos fel fire

  7. #127
    well we can instill fear upon oure foes by waving oure hands around :P
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfen View Post
    But, in honestly, sha power is the power of the old gods, which is the power of the twilight.
    That is more or less the reasoning I based on my theories about Sha and Warlocks although I am not quite sure how that turns out.
    Last edited by deviantcultist; 2013-01-15 at 09:08 AM.

  9. #129
    /cast fear

    there you go, I used sha power
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    they are all about power at any cost.
    The point Xelnath made is that there is always a cost for Warlocks' powers. Sha powers don't have a cost, they are all consuming. You can't wield them, at all, they wield you.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You can't wield them, at all, they wield you.
    garrosh is trying. I won't be surprised if we find some "shalocks" in the siege of orgrimmar lol

    also, plenty of mogu mobs in the horde version of the Dominance Offensive questline wield the sha with no problems. (I haven't done the alliance version yet)

    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68815#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68401#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68410#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68378#abilities
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  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    garrosh is trying. I won't be surprised if we find some "shalocks" in the siege of orgrimmar lol

    also, plenty of mogu mobs in the horde version of the Dominance Offensive questline wield the sha with no problems. (I haven't done the alliance version yet)

    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68815#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68401#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68410#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68378#abilities
    I am personally aware of that and as you can see they are all warlockish spells. It is indeed possible to not be able to control the sha, however there may be a difference between the Sha and the Sha-Corruption/Energy.
    Maybe Priests get to manipulate the Sha, while Warlocks get to channel that negative energy from themselves, as a chaotic means and not a controllable force. That could be done with a new future spell or some minor spell alterations via minor glyphs.

    examples:
    - Have a Demo glyph that replaces the thorns/purple aura effect of 500+ fury with Sha aura, meaning that you get infested to the increase in fury.
    - Affli glyph that replaces Unstable affliction with a more sha-like visual or that can be said for shadow bolt.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    garrosh is trying. I won't be surprised if we find some "shalocks" in the siege of orgrimmar lol

    also, plenty of mogu mobs in the horde version of the Dominance Offensive questline wield the sha with no problems. (I haven't done the alliance version yet)

    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68815#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68401#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68410#abilities
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=68378#abilities
    I know Garrosh is trying, and his attempts so far as I've seen saw his experiment subjects completely consumed. Garrosh is also not a Warlock, he's a Warrior who's shown no real understanding of any kind of magic beyond his interest in what it's capable of, without any care for the consequences (which makes him even more of an idiot when you consider what happened to his father).

    I've also seen NPCs using Sha magic (although not these ones yet), but all of those I have seen have acted as conduits for their associated Sha's power rather than acting of their own volition.

    I also think it's weird you're trying to dispute the lore explaination given by one of the guys that wrote it :3

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I've also seen NPCs using Sha magic (although not these ones yet), but all of those I have seen have acted as conduits for their associated Sha's power rather than acting of their own volition.
    what stops warlocks from acting as conduits for sha power?

    I also think it's weird you're trying to dispute the lore explaination given by one of the guys that wrote it :3
    quoting xelnath himself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    No. That was going to be part of the Warlock story arc in Pandaria. This part of the quest was not done and never will be, but one of the final Black Council trials was going to be to attempt to assimilate and master the Sha. It was going to fail horribly, with Zelfrax becoming even more twisted than he already was.

    The nature of Warlock power is that it comes from chaos and instability - Sha is dark, cold and reflective. Warlocks control their magical power by paying a price - either through their blood (life tap), the suffering of others (affliction), their own internal rage (demonology) or by absolutely obliterating everything their magic touches (destruction).

    Sha power cannot be converted, bargained with or bribed. It is a kind of one-sided loathing that wholly devours those who lack the inner counterbalance to handle it. Warlocks cannot wield it, as there's no way for them to 'cheat' the price away.

    [FYI This statement may no longer be considered canon]
    besides, we see the mogu wielding sha. some of them are called Korune Sha-weavers! if canon lore shows us people wielding a power and than say it can't be wielded, it's bad writing. I sincerely doubt the mogu have any more inner counterbalance than warlocks lol

    besides, how can anger be something "cold and reflexive"? demonology uses our own internal rage? well, so does the sha of anger.

    it wouldn't be the first time (undeath is uncurable, let's cure that lich from scholomance so we can kill him lol), and it probably won't be the last time where things don't make any sense. but if there's even a minute flicker of probability of a current dev reading my posts and seeing how it doesn't make any sense, it could save the game from one more inconsistency, and I love this game far too much for not gambling on this 0.0001% chance
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-01-15 at 11:15 AM.
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  15. #135
    @checking facts: Couldn't have said it better.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    A)Check priests with the Sha-Touched staff/mace
    B)How about the twilight element (new thing) or the void? Do they have to do with demons? Only fel does.

    Its not about everything that looks cool. Its about a new dark theme that had us hyped with a new tier, several spells being black and white versions of our spells and several Sha whispering in your mind in demonic, similar to how the fel voices work according to quests and lore. On top of it, Sha looks like an immense force, not simply a spiritual thing(eg. Rommath looks ecstatic by consuming some of the essence and compares it to fel).
    EVERYONE has a sha-touched weapon. Sha-touched does not equal Sha, nor should it.

    This isn't a dark theme. This is a twisted image thing, a focus on the good and suppression of the bad to the point where the bad physically manifests itself thing. This is a very dark priest thing. Warlocks inspire terror, but we don't rot the mind, we corrupt and decay the body. Priests go after the mind and soul in the way the sha would, not warlocks. We don't want to destroy their souls, we want to absorb and take them for our own. Sha's of anger, doubt, fear, etc. are sources of power that warlocks wouldn't be interested in, since they would aim to destroy the very things we want to draw power from and enslave.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    besides, we see the mogu wielding sha. some of them are called Korune Sha-weavers! if canon lore shows us people wielding a power and than say it can't be wielded, it's bad writing. I sincerely doubt the mogu have any more inner counterbalance than warlocks lol

    besides, how can anger be something "cold and reflexive"? demonology uses our own internal rage? well, so does the sha of anger.

    it wouldn't be the first time (undeath is uncurable, let's cure that lich from scholomance so we can kill him lol), and it probably won't be the last time where things don't make any sense. but if there's even a minute flicker of probability of a current dev reading my posts and seeing how it doesn't make any sense, it could save the game from one more inconsistency, and I love this game far too much for not gambling on this 0.0001% chance
    The mogu do not act on their own though, the act on behalf of the Sha. Do you honestly think a warlock would willingly become someone's slave to harness their power? Perhaps unwillingly, sure, but never willingly submit to it to draw their power that they wouldn't even be able to fully control, just draw a small piece of to do someone else's will. That's completely against a warlock's character.
    Last edited by Medieve; 2013-01-15 at 01:11 PM.
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  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Medieve View Post
    The mogu do not act on their own though, the act on behalf of the Sha.
    source?

    the mogu do not serve the sha. they only serve the strongest mogu, which in this case is the thunder king, who is not sha.

    the korune (the sha wielding clan of the mogu) created the divine bell with titan flesh and sha. they learned how to wield and manipulate the sha, at a distant point in the past, much before the great sundering. they made the bell and gave it to the thunder king, which allowed him to control sha.
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  18. #138
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    We have no clue what the Thunder King is, just a few rumors that could lead to even troll. Given the fact that the Mogu use the powers of the Sha, and the Sha's themselves seem to rise in power and influence as a result, it's not too hard to suspect that the mogu are given that power to influence the rise of the Sha. It's not really some great mystery that as soon as the Alliance and Horde's raw, uncontrolled emotions brought the Sha back from where they were contained, the Mogu started to rise, giving the Sha reign over areas as the Mogu expanded once again. We know the Sha can't be everywhere at once, and their essences aren't entirely physical, so they would need some physical manifestation or agent to further increase their hold. The uncontrollable rage and savagery of the Mogu seem very likely candidates, and shouldn't be too hard to garner further control from more recruits by making them believe the divine bell is what gives the Mogu control of the Sha, when the most powerful heroes of the Horde that have vanquished many of the Mogu themselves failed miserably. Makes it more apparent that the Sha are far more powerful than the Mogu and are using them to their own ends through the divine bell, among other means.

    I'll let you know for sure when 5.2 comes out.
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  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Medieve View Post
    We have no clue what the Thunder King is, just a few rumors that could lead to even troll.
    the thunder king is a mogu who tore the heart of a titan watcher out. that gave him power over lightning ("It is said that he tore out the very heart of the mogu God. And from that hateful act he gained power over wind and storm.", datamined info).

    he used that power to rise to power and become the mogu king ("The Thunder King rose to power the “the mogu way,” namely by eliminating his rivals one by one. According to legend he was able to accomplish this with the help of a mysterious artifact that he found in the depths of a mountain.").

    in the year 170 of the thunder king's reign, the korune clan gave him the divine bell, made with "maker's flesh" (probably Ra-den's, since he's the titanic watcher the mogu have in their possession) and the "breath of the darkest shadow" (sha). the thunder king used the divine bell to control the sha, empowering his troops with anger and hatred, and causing fear and doubts on his enemies.

    "In the one-hundred-and-seventieth year of the Thunder King's reign, the Korune spellweavers (casts "Sha Bolt and Sha Eruption") came to Lei Shen with their greatest creation.

    A bell cast from the makers' flesh, shaped by stars' fire, and bound by the breath of darkest shadow. This bell, when rung, could shake the world and call to the heavens.

    Taken to war, the bell's cacophonous tones stirred the hearts of Lei Shen's warriors. It fueled their hatred and anger, lending them strength on the field of battle. The bell's screaming voice struck fear and doubt into the hearts of the Emperor's enemies, sending them fleeing in his path.

    Awed by its power, the Thunder King described the instrument as "the voice of the gods," and named it Shenqing, the Divine Bell." (http://www.wowpedia.org/Ancient_Korune_Tablet)

    so yeah, I'd say we know enough of the thunder king.

    the korune clan mastered the sha, made a "sha remote control" and gave it to the thunder king as a gift 170 years after he became the emperor by stealing titan power.
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    Here is why I am puzzled about the Sha thing. I'll try to list my arguments in a manner where response can be much more convenient. I may update this post depending on any new ideas or feedback.



    -Sha have Old God origins, however Twilight magic did as well.

    -Priest can have a Sha spawn skin for their shadowfiend with the Sha-touched weapon, but the Warlock has a Sha-Skin tier on its own.

    -In many instances, Sha whisper into your mind in Demonic in addition to having a couple of Sha classified as Demons.

    -Many Sha spells are black/white versions of warlock spells. (eg Sha-(dow)bolt)

    -Another interesting thing I have noticed is that despite their "emotional" origin, they tend to be a respected source of energy as well, given that the Sha energy ravaged the whole of Dread Wastes and Grand Magister Rommath siphoned that power and compared it to the FEL sensation and impact as an essence.

    -Implementation of new Sha spells or glyph re-skins can be applied to shadow spells, mostly affliction and some to demo. Is it me or Touch of Chaos has a Sha vibe on it?

    -I have noticed that the Sha have similar patterns to the Voidwalkers, in terms of spawning, reproducing and other spells they perform.

    -An interesting theory might be that Warlocks and the Council of the Black Harvest aim for the mastery of the Sha, as an ultimate challenge to master one's self or as being the only ones that can bear that "burden". That can be elaborated by checking the leaked warlock questline where someone mentions: "Perhaps you can accept the disorder of this universe" and the Black Harvest has proved that they aim for every interesting source of power that appears.
    -Sha have old god origins, but warlocks don't.
    -Tier doesn't mean much. We had faceless one looking tier in T13. It's just a vibe
    -Where do sha whisper into your mind? And demonic?
    -Sha are literal manifestations of negative emotions.
    -Touch of chaos has a demonic feel to it
    -Now you're really reaching. Spawning and reproducing? So do blobs in hellfire and many other mobs
    -"Perhaps you can accept the disorder of this universe" doesn't mean chaos. There is disorder in the universe. Mainly the Burning Legion. Demons.

    Warlocks are demonic. Just throwing Sha in there for the sake of it just because they're evil would seem tacky. If they want to give a class the sha feel, let it be spriests. It would make more sense.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 11:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    /cast fear

    there you go, I used sha power
    Other classes can fear too.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 11:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    That is more or less the reasoning I based on my theories about Sha and Warlocks although I am not quite sure how that turns out.
    Archbishop Benedictus (Priest) used twilight magic. We have what? 1 ability? Twilight ward? Locks use fel magic.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

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