Hunter Stealth > Rogue Stealth- link to official forums.

[Deleted]

Maybe you sap'n'run guys need to just deal with it, and get over it.

You'd almost think people would have better stuff to do than posting relevant, informative, and carefully thought out posts, such as this one.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 09:49 AM ----------

I have seen the pictures, however that then raises a different question. How often do you stand perfectly still while stealthed, especially when there is another stealth class wandering around? Not trying to say that your example and test have no validity, but given that two stealthed units will generally be moving around so as to avoid detection and detect the other, have you done a test to see which class detects the other first while moving? You may find that the 50% movement speed actually puts the two classes on a more even playing field than you realize.

Once again, I'm not stating you are wrong, I am merely trying to invest a bit of logical theorem into the debate.

Movement speed is a non-issue, I'd say. Stealth duels are essentially about one thing; The element of surprise. The opener is the one who has the advantage of foresight, and in this case, there's no reason to assume the hunter won't be the one to get that advantage. If the hunter can open on the rogue prior to the rogue even knowing he's there, both will be removed from stealth and the rogue won't just lose the element of surprise but his all-important opener as well, which is a hefty set-back for him.

[Ulfhedinn]

Not a rogue but this sounds like a major mistake to me. Rogues must come into melee range to attack but now we have a class that already was a nightmare for melee to get to being able to open when and where they feel like?

At this point I have to wonder wtf the hunters weakness is?

[Tyranastus]

But it very well could be an issue. You are stating that while moving, a hunter with a maximum movement speed of 65% will always stumble upon the detection zone of a rogue moving at a maximum movement speed of 149% (not 100% sure on that, don't play a rogue myself). You are also stating that, even though a hunters improved stealth detection only works in a frontal cone, a hunter is always going to be facing the correct direction to actually benefit from this ability.

Give some thought to the idea of an area such as ring of valor. In an area of that size, which would be roughly equivalent to the size of a duelling zone, while trying to make it's way around the arena to find a stealthed rogue, is a hunter always going to detect a rogue? (Keeping in mind frontal cone) Even though the rogue can cover that area on average almost 3 times faster than a hunter?

[Kael]

Even though the rogue can cover that area on average almost 3 times faster than a hunter?

Err not that I know much about PvP, but if I'm following this logically, for the rogue to see the hunter he's got to catch the hunter in that same frontal cone... which would leave the equal opportunity of walking directly in front of the hunter while missing him on a sweep, no? It's not like you're searching a minefield... the stealthy enemy is quite capable of walking into YOUR detection range without realizing it.

Or have I mis-considered something? I'd grant that the rogue can cover a greater area, but the hunter can turn his character model just as quickly as the rogue to keep the detection open (not that that would be wise).

[Filtern]

Now Im curious about lvl 90 PvP, as this actually are supposed to be balanced around!

[Darthvador]

Sound like rogue pulled the shortest straw this xpac

[Tyranastus]

Err not that I know much about PvP, but if I'm following this logically, for the rogue to see the hunter he's got to catch the hunter in that same frontal cone... which would leave the equal opportunity of walking directly in front of the hunter while missing him on a sweep, no? It's not like you're searching a minefield... the stealthy enemy is quite capable of walking into YOUR detection range without realizing it.

Or have I mis-considered something? I'd grant that the rogue can cover a greater area, but the hunter can turn his character model just as quickly as the rogue to keep the detection open (not that that would be wise).

Yes, what you're saying is correct, but if a rogue is moving at that speed, what is the chance of a hunter moving at 50% speed to come up behind a rogue. And if a hunter legitimately does find a rogue with that kind of dismal speed, can you honestly not say "well fucking grats on a lucky find!" Yes a hunter can turn as fast as a rogue does. But in the event that, in the off chance a hunter does turn and detect the rogue at the exact moment the rogue moves into the hunter's detection range, what is to stop the rogue from attacking the hunter? I am reasonably sure that a rogue won't simply stop moving and let the hunter get first strike.

Plus to quote your statement "which would leave the equal opportunity of walking directly in front of the hunter. Which by means would state that a hunter does not in fact have an advantage in that situation as people are saying.

[Srg56]

I got a hunter to stand still long enough to make these screenshots!

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1333835?page=1

This shows where the hunters see the rogues, and where the rogues see the hunters. Hunters have a big advantage on rogues with glyphed camo.

Shadow Walk overcomes this, but only during its cooldown.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 05:54 AM ----------

Also note the purple marker for shadow walk. It's not MUCH of an advantage, even when up. That's glyphed shadow walk of course- without the glyph, you get no detection advantage, and shouldn't have enough +stealth to win over track hidden.

SO, now rogues have to actually think and be careful when approaching a flag or tower or point of interest in BGs and world PvP because of the fear that ONE of the ELEVEN classes in game has the capability of tracking them down. Horrifying. Their godmode stealth is gone now, after 7 years of griefing, chain sapping, cowardly running when outplayed, coming back when outnumbering, attacking when opponent is at low hp, camping, starting fights when you want, exiting them when you want, like you own the place, and the game.

I've read the thread and i find it amusing how every part of the hunter class is suddenly glorified out of proportion to something out of legend books in the hope of making it look like hunters already were a superior master race class in the game and somehow this new addition to their arsenal is simply too much! Those wonderful ranged shots! and those AMAZING pets! and the tracking and the THIS and the THAT! Alongside that, being hamstrung 100% of the time down to 50% speed while in camo suddenly becomes "running around all over the place",as if with the glyph, hunters suddenly become omnipresent. You clever double speak Orwellian rogue lobbyists !

It really is like watching lobbying in Washington, but with much much less pertinent reasons. Boo-hoo i want my godmode stealth back so i can have the advantage and opener on all 11 of classes! One of them is able to counter that with a glyph spot, giving up 50% movement speed? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

Quoting from the forums where a poster is also making an argument that not many hunters will even take the glyph to begin with:

Hunters have no openers or talents that benefit from camo. Hunters have to camo around with pets flailing around at our side. Hunters DO NOT have more a effective stealth level than rogues, not even close. Detect hidden only functions from our front side. Nobody is going to take the glyph because of the much better ones that are available and if they do then you are probably at more of an advantage against them than if they didn't.

[Kayb]

Infracted.

[Athluam]

ROFLMAO this is funny the most OP class in PVP in cata is upset that that they might be at a disadvantage in MOP

[Darkis]

Boo-hoo i want my godmode stealth back so i can have the advantage and opener on all 11 of classes! One of them is able to counter that with a glyph spot, giving up 50% movement speed? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

Only thing that is sweeter than rogue tears, are mage tears, right?

[Verain]

Rogues need to be the best at stealth. Stealth is what we are. Hunters being given a better version of stealth is a dumb joke.


Oh, and expect a hunter to just do whatever it is that you don't like it when a rogue does. Just like that, but from range, and with a pet.

[Kael]

Plus to quote your statement "which would leave the equal opportunity of walking directly in front of the hunter. Which by means would state that a hunter does not in fact have an advantage in that situation as people are saying.

Except that if they're walking directly at each other the hunter sees the rogue first? Wasn't that the point the OP was making?

I'm not going to get into being OP/UP or hunter vs. rogue vs. who knows what, but mechanically it doesn't sound like movement speed is at all relevant, for the sheer fact that you'd be almost as likely to catch your opponent first by not moving at all and letting them come to you while camera swiveling. Although that seems equally unlikely to end up being true because of server lag and blah blah blah... but as pertains to what I was saying, moving faster doesn't seem to convey a greater actionable range (i.e. higher chance to see the other person first, the goal).

As to the LOL ROGUES QQing and stuff, that's really... not helpful, ever, in any thread, on any topic. Are rogues doing great now? Sure! I keep hearing so. Will they be fine for pvp at 90? I don't know! But this thread is really rather about the rogue's signature ability (stealth) not being... the stealthiest. To me, that sounds weird, pvp repercussions aside.

If you've got a real comment to make regarding the OP or counterpoint to someone else in the thread, use some phrases and sentences that might help make your point clearer...

[Tyranastus]

Except that if they're walking directly at each other the hunter sees the rogue first? Wasn't that the point the OP was making?

I'm not going to get into being OP/UP or hunter vs. rogue vs. who knows what, but mechanically it doesn't sound like movement speed is at all relevant, for the sheer fact that you'd be almost as likely to catch your opponent first by not moving at all and letting them come to you while camera swiveling. Although that seems equally unlikely to end up being true because of server lag and blah blah blah... but as pertains to what I was saying, moving faster doesn't seem to convey a greater actionable range (i.e. higher chance to see the other person first, the goal).

Yes, you are correct, but that then doesn't answer my original question, which is, if while moving at 120-150% movement speed, will the rogue trigger detection before a hunter that has Track: Stealth. If latency and reaction times were absolutely instantaneous, I would say that yes, a hunter would have the advantage. But in the event of a head on collision, I do not think that a 2-4 yard increase (under perfect circumstances) is going to guarantee a hunter the first strike.

[Srg56]

Oh, and expect a hunter to just do whatever it is that you don't like it when a rogue does. Just like that, but from range, and with a pet.

Chain sapping, stunlocking, vanishing and running away. Yeah.


I couldn't keep a straight face while typing that.

[Hedleyazg]

Not surprised at all that Blizzard is simply giving away another Rogue mechanic (and at a better level/version to boot) to a class that doesn't need it. Also for the people saying "Oh it's only 2 or 4 yards!" That is a decent sized distance in PvP.

[Deleted]

So, let me get this straight...
THE class defining ability of our class has been handed out like candy on Halloween, and now another class actually SURPASSES us in a field WE are supposed to dominate, while our own class is barely graced by the touch of the dev team!

And we're just "complaining"?

owh for cyring out load shut the fuck up , because 1 class got something u also have u gonna complain ? god fucking dammit look at fucking shaman ? OOWH LOLZ SHAMAN HAZ BLOODLUST? LETZ GIEF TO MAGES! how retarded is that ? oowh look a warrior can wield a shield lets gief it to a palaz!

god i can complain all day , who stole my bow in sunwell ? a fucking rogue who never used it only for stats ( legendary sunwell bow)

so when we got camo no1 was complaining because when we moved u saw us...and now when we got it glyphed we can move while stealthed , 50% move reduced ( cheetah doesn't work) and tbh the glyph sucks it adds no additional thing to our hunter arsinal. oowh whooohooo we can move while stealthed , 50% move reduced wich makes it kind of useles to go after somebody, plus if i am gaurding a flag i can do a normal camo and while standing still , still stealthed plus other glyphs are way better to pick for so stop complainng for once , u cans till stunlock any class to death but bcuz a hunter got an ability a rogue has it's all panic now whoohooo

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 11:36 AM ----------

btw , how about ferals? they also got stealth right ? u gonna bitch about that now to whiny face?

Infracted.

[Verain]

Blizzard's intentions on ferals are pretty clear. Most importantly, ferals have always had equal or less stealth to rogues. Currently, ferals have the exact same stealth and stealth detect passively, but lack shadow walk and sap. Sap is definitely the more important of these two. Ferals, in other words, have the same stealth as rogues, never better. Hunters, randomly and likely shockingly, have better, because their VERY potent anti-stealth tools all experience full synergy with their new stealth. They can even flare and lay traps whilst stealthed, in addition to enjoying their greater detection range.

[Lemons]

Yes, you are correct, but that then doesn't answer my original question, which is, if while moving at 120-150% movement speed, will the rogue trigger detection before a hunter that has Track: Stealth. If latency and reaction times were absolutely instantaneous, I would say that yes, a hunter would have the advantage. But in the event of a head on collision, I do not think that a 2-4 yard increase (under perfect circumstances) is going to guarantee a hunter the first strike.

You do realize that the rogue must close to melee range, right? At least on live I cannot sap a camo'd hunter, which is a rogue's only ranged opener. If a hunter can see a rogue from that kind of distance it's over for the rogue.

[Deleted]

owh for cyring out load shut the fuck up , because 1 class got something u also have u gonna complain ? god fucking dammit look at fucking shaman ? OOWH LOLZ SHAMAN HAZ BLOODLUST? LETZ GIEF TO MAGES! how retarded is that ? oowh look a warrior can wield a shield lets gief it to a palaz!

god i can complain all day , who stole my bow in sunwell ? a fucking rogue who never used it only for stats ( legendary sunwell bow)

so when we got camo no1 was complaining because when we moved u saw us...and now when we got it glyphed we can move while stealthed , 50% move reduced ( cheetah doesn't work) and tbh the glyph sucks it adds no additional thing to our hunter arsinal. oowh whooohooo we can move while stealthed , 50% move reduced wich makes it kind of useles to go after somebody, plus if i am gaurding a flag i can do a normal camo and while standing still , still stealthed plus other glyphs are way better to pick for so stop complainng for once , u cans till stunlock any class to death but bcuz a hunter got an ability a rogue has it's all panic now whoohooo

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 11:36 AM ----------

btw , how about ferals? they also got stealth right ? u gonna bitch about that now to whiny face?

You compare stealth to a warriors shield...? Or a raid-cooldown? You neither have intelligence nor integrity. Nevermind the fact that you yourself unleash an endless stream of whining regarding rogues AFTER condemning us for whining, not only displaying yourself like a moron but also a hypocrite.

And yes, I will partially whine about Ferals as well. Stealth isn't misplaced in a ferals case, I don't mind them having it. However, I do mind when they have an improved version of Vanish on a much lower cooldown, when ours remains a 3 minute Vanish.