The American Dream

[Skroe]

Just because John Steinbeck said something, doesn't make it relevant.

The Grapes of Wrath is so over the top and exaggerated it might as well be a comic book.

Socialism had it's shot in this country. It blew it for a massive host of reasons. Hell it appeared on the scene at the perfect time two: the two major parties were fracturing and the Republicans had schismed. They had the window of opportunity, but couldn't seize it.

[Gheld]

Just because John Steinbeck said something, doesn't make it relevant.

The Grapes of Wrath is so over the top and exaggerated it might as well be a comic book.

Socialism had it's shot in this country. It blew it for a massive host of reasons. Hell it appeared on the scene at the perfect time two: the two major parties were fracturing and the Republicans had schismed. They had the window of opportunity, but couldn't seize it.

The primary problem with socialism is that nobody votes for it because they want to work harder than everybody else and share the fruits of their labour. The opposite in fact.

It's just greed wearing a thin veil of irony.

[Vizardlorde]

Four words : Carrot on a stick

[cubby]

Not a perfect example on the current state of the American Dream, seeing as Obama is already 51. Children being born these days, or even in the last decade don't stand a chance to achieve American Dream the way children of the 60's/70's/perhaps 80's had.

That's a pretty fair critique, and considering the current state of the economy, I would suggest there is merit in your statement.

That being said, the American Dream is still there for the taking. Intelligence and hard work will get you success, if you can handle what success means now.

[Ashnazg]

Hey all! This conversation came about in a discussion with a few of my colleagues and i wanted to get to other impressions on the subject. The subject being the fallacy of the American Dream and its validity in our society.

I agree with many of the other responders in this thread (regarding social mobility, etc), but there is still one thing that America is good for - making a lot of money. With some effort and acumen you can navigate the various corporate inefficiencies to basically plunder the corporate world silly, if you want money and lots of it. I work as a legal consultant for major NY corporations, and I see these things on a daily basis - you can make small fortunes in taking advantage of the fact that in a corporation, very few people on a mid-level of decision-making actually give a shit as to what happens with the corporate money. "Corporation is an ingenious device for individual profit without individual responsibility".

So in that sense, I definitely think that people with a proper mindset, motivation and skills can make fortunes. People who want to play by the rules are less likely to make same fortunes.

[Reeve]

Haha ok, lets keep people from achieving class conciousness by promoting and defending the stupid bourgeois hegemony of culture with crap like the "American Dream", lol.

To quote John Steinbeck:
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

Yeah, I'm pretty much OK with that. I think it's good that people believe that with hard work they can improve their situation. It encourages hard work and staves off despair. Whether or not it's true for everyone doesn't change the fact that those are positive attitudes to have.

Besides, I'm a liberal person. I think that certain socialist programs can help to make the American Dream more realistic, but I don't think those social programs should provide the results of the American Dream without the requisite work. And they don't.

[Skroe]

Not to mention the "European Dream", social democracy in particular, is looking like an epic Nightmare at the moment.

Socialism works if you're a small, homogeneous Scandinavian country. No where else. And frankly, considering that 230 years ago the US was little more than a few million broke colonists who had just beat the world's greatest power in a war for independence, things have worked out pretty damn well.

Put another way, Socialists didn't build the Panama Canal. Socialists didn't put Men on the moon. Socialists didn't destroy the Soviet Empire. Socialists didn't create and build the internet. Socialists didn't invent Google. Socialists didn't put Curiosity on Mars.

Certain socialist programs DO help... the public safety net is essential in any functioning economy. But if unequal outcomes is the price of avoiding European malaise and stagnation, it isn't exactly a high price. I mean I hate to be blunt, but the world we live in is one founded largely on European History, Enlightenment values and Economic theories. But it's also been a shockingly long time since Europe inspired anyone. The American Dream on the other hand, is an evergreen creed.

[Ashnazg]

Put another way, Socialists didn't build the Panama Canal. Socialists didn't put Men on the moon. Socialists didn't destroy the Soviet Empire. Socialists didn't create and build the internet. Socialists didn't invent Google. Socialists didn't put Curiosity on Mars.

Communists have a great # of impressive achievements as well. Scientific, cultural, artistic. American space program owes quite a bit to the Nazis. Advances in several other sciences were also possible, largely, because of the German scientists. It was basically all about who grabbed more prisoners during the sack of Berlin.

Capitalism did, ultimately, prevail over communism, but it doesn't mean its the only viable way to structure your society, nor that its the best one. Clearly, the cycle of recurring economic depressions is showing the severe limits of the model.

[Deleted]

It's a dream but it's not reality but that won't stop us from chasing dreams that's just how some people work, keep chasing that dream even if it feels like it's beyond your grasp. A dream can only die if no one is dreaming it and I believe there are still alot of people who dream about it.

[Wikiy]

Not to mention the "European Dream", social democracy in particular, is looking like an epic Nightmare at the moment.

Umm, no, it's not. The European Party of Socialists has 25% seats in EU legislature. 5/27 EU countries have a social democrat head of state. Social democrats are far from ruling Europe. Either way, you actually didn't say at all how social democracy is supposed to have caused the crisis (which is happening EVERYWHERE in the world). The crisis is the result of the Eurozone blunders.

Put another way, Socialists didn't build the Panama Canal. Socialists didn't put Men on the moon. Socialists didn't destroy the Soviet Empire. Socialists didn't create and build the internet. Socialists didn't invent Google. Socialists didn't put Curiosity on Mars.

Again, i don't understand how that is somehow supposed to discredit socialism and boost capitalism. And just for your knowledge, socialists did a shit ton. "put men on the Moon"? Oh, sure, except socialists put the first satellite in the orbit, first life form in the orbit, first mammal in the orbit, first human in the orbit and achieved the first Moon landing. Socialists also came up with the formula without which no one would have any idea how much fuel would be needed to put things in the orbit. "Socialists didn't destroy the Soviet Empire"? It destroyed itself. America had very little to do with it.

[TheOne]

Four words : Carrot on a stick

This pretty much says it.

The American Dream isn't dead. You can't kill a dream. It isn't something tangible that you can put in your closet and forget about. It's a dream. An idea. You can't buy the American Dream with money. The Dream is different for everyone. For one, it could be surrounding yourself with the best human beings they can find. For another, it could be finding that one true love. For another, it could be having the ability to live their life on their own terms. One thing that can be agreed on IMO, is that the Dream has a knack for always being just out of reach. It's our version of Tantalus' punishment.

[Kraenen]

I think the american dream is being shattered before our eyes because of the creeping forth of socialism. Things like minimum wages and worker's rights and big government spending mean that free enterprise and accountability are destroyed. I think we need to take away the minimum wage and that will bring about more prosperity and growth. Because who would work for minimum wage? That leads the company to fail, and only the companies who hire people above the minimum wage would succeed.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 07:35 PM ----------

Umm, no, it's not. The European Party of Socialists has 25% seats in EU legislature. 5/27 EU countries have a social democrat head of state. Social democrats are far from ruling Europe. Either way, you actually didn't say at all how social democracy is supposed to have caused the crisis (which is happening EVERYWHERE in the world). The crisis is the result of the Eurozone blunders.



Again, i don't understand how that is somehow supposed to discredit socialism and boost capitalism. And just for your knowledge, socialists did a shit ton. "put men on the Moon"? Oh, sure, except socialists put the first satellite in the orbit, first life form in the orbit, first mammal in the orbit, first human in the orbit and achieved the first Moon landing. Socialists also came up with the formula without which no one would have any idea how much fuel would be needed to put things in the orbit. "Socialists didn't destroy the Soviet Empire"? It destroyed itself. America had very little to do with it.

It's because democracy is flawed. Private corporations do everything much better and when you feed the beast of the state you lose freedom, and when you lose freedom you lose productivity and efficiency. More people voting with their dollar will improve society much faster than if people voted for what they want.

[zorkuus]

and only the companies who hire people above the minimum wage would succeed.

LOL no seriously ROFL

[Wildtree]

The American Dream? Sorry, my first thought really was this:


On a serious note..... I can speak from a Resident Alien's view. I came to the US with that cliche or stereotype of the American Dream in my knowledge.
Luckily I must say, I didn't come for that very reason. I had total other motives. However, after around 6 month I did make a comparison to the American Dream vs Reality balance... And I found that there's a GREAT music example, matching the result...


Now why Grand Illusion..... Where it is true, one can become wealthy, probably even rich and a millionaire. But at least as a European, I know that I could become the same over there too, if that was my goal. And actually a lot easier, with a lot more social coverage, in case anything would go wrong with me and my health.
Hard work will get you to prosperity in the USA, stuff like working 2 jobs.. But those two jobs likely don't pay nearly as good as their counterparts in Europe.
And they lack all the benefits which I got for granted in Europe and have to be added to the income total.

Doesn't mean living in the USA ain't worth it. It certainly is, and people from lower economies than Europeans have, have really a great opportunity in the USA.
So the Dream exists.. it just won't come to you in your sleep. That part is a grand illusion.

[Deleted]

Living to 50 due to obesity?

[Vincent]

Regardless, the American Dream is a delusion.

That statement is utter [CENSORED] [CENSORED] [REALLY CENSORED].

I grew up on a crime-ridden inner-city shit-hole, raised by a single-parent in a neighborhood steeped in poverty, participating in a welfare system that can best described as a pitcher-plant. I was not alone. Not many of us got out of that hell: the ones who bought into the 'there is no American Dream' type of thinking are still there (or worse); not all who kept the idea of the American Dream go out but all are doing far better than they grew up; while not all got out, most did. The "I ain't workin' for chump-change" crowd are still suckling from the government tit; those of us who did work for chump-change, and were glad of it, built on that and continued to build.

I got in a semester of college (read: community college) before the money ran out and I had to work full time, and it was a couple of years before I could afford community college again -- in-state tuition is dirt-cheap, btw, and I still couldn't bloody afford it -- but in the mean time I studied myself silly (pre-internet, but the libraries were free). I took a job doing tech-support, thanks entirely to my self-study, and built from there, moving around tech jobs until I moved into software architecture (on an AA degree from a community college) where I am now. Bill Gates may have little to fear from me but I own a very nice house in a great neighborhood, am on track to have quite a comfortable retirement out of my own savings and investments, and have a lot of amenities besides.

Over half the people I work with came from meager means, and living the same dream.

The American Dream is alive and real -- though some are making a concerted effort to kill it off. It is the OPPORTUNITY to succeed, not the guarantee that you will. To partake of the American Dream, you have to want it, work for it, nurture it, and not give up. I had the chance to work with some immigrants -- who were in the final stages of gaining their Citizenship -- and most of them came from poverty or the very low end of the economic spectrum. They believe in the American Dream. Some were more successful than others but none lost sight of it. One of them failed over and over in business and was quasi-homeless a number of times b/c of it but (and I paraphrase, it's been a few years) 'no to worry, number six is a good number, I get it right next time.' (He was scouting 'vacation homes with boat access' thanks to 'number seven')

[Riidii]

Yes, the American Dream is alive.

There are living, breathing examples walking around everyday.

Just because not everyone can achieve their goals, the Dream is dead.

Although, it is becoming harder. Thanks Socialism!

[Reeve]

Not to mention the "European Dream", social democracy in particular, is looking like an epic Nightmare at the moment.

Socialism works if you're a small, homogeneous Scandinavian country. No where else. And frankly, considering that 230 years ago the US was little more than a few million broke colonists who had just beat the world's greatest power in a war for independence, things have worked out pretty damn well.

Put another way, Socialists didn't build the Panama Canal. Socialists didn't put Men on the moon. Socialists didn't destroy the Soviet Empire. Socialists didn't create and build the internet. Socialists didn't invent Google. Socialists didn't put Curiosity on Mars.

Certain socialist programs DO help... the public safety net is essential in any functioning economy. But if unequal outcomes is the price of avoiding European malaise and stagnation, it isn't exactly a high price. I mean I hate to be blunt, but the world we live in is one founded largely on European History, Enlightenment values and Economic theories. But it's also been a shockingly long time since Europe inspired anyone. The American Dream on the other hand, is an evergreen creed.

Actually, socialists did all those things. The US is a capitalist-socialist state with aspects of both ideologies. The space program things you mentioned in particular are government programs, not private company projects. Socialists DID put men on the moon.

[Puremallace]

I agree with the OP. The "American Dream" is basically a myth.

Thanks to Republicans/Democrats. Jobs outsourced over a period of 30 years, home owner ship dwindling, death of unions and the emergence of right to work state. Also if Romney/Ryan win the death of the minimum wage and social security.

[zorkuus]

Although, it is becoming harder. Thanks Socialism!

Yeah right. And the rich making it harder and harder for the poor and middle class to rise up in the ranks doesn't have anything to do with it?