L90 talents "theorycrafting"

[scuac]

So, servers are down and I am bored, so I started doing some math on the last tier of talents. My goal was to see, under "ideal" conditions (i.e. maximum uptime, etc.), which talent would yield the higher SP buff. Here is my math (again, I simplified things):

Assuming a 300s fight.

A) Incanter's Ward, if we never cast it and use the passive, we get a flat 6% SP, easy. Now, the other extreme, we cast it on CD and the shield always gets fully absorbed, then assuming we pre-cast it exactly on pull, we cast it 11 times during fight, so for 16.5s we are doing 0 dps. During the remaining time until it is off-CD, we get 15s of 30% SP and 8.5s of no buff. Average 19.1% SP. Then, for the total fight we have an average of 12.5% SP increase on dps time.

B) Rune of Power, is a little easier, assuming we pre-cast on pull, we need to reapply every 60s. During the fight we spend then a total of 6s casting it. It averages out to 12.7% SP on dps time.

C) Invocation, we get a flat 25% SP buff when we are not evocating, but we spend 36s doing that during the fight. It averages to 10% SP on dps time.


Summary:
Incanter's ward passive: 6%
Incanter's ward on-cd: 12.5%
Rune of power: 12.7%
Invocation: 10%

Of course, we then need to be realistic that IW on cd is almost impossible to guarantee the shield will always be fully absorbed, rune of power may require recasting more often, invocation may not complete, etc.

Conclusion: would taking Incanter's ward and never casting it be viable? because it is a solid, no-frills, guaranteed 6% SP increase?

[Imnick]

The guaranteed 6% is much lower than you will get using the over two even at fairly low efficiency

[Methusula]

So, servers are down and I am bored, so I started doing some math on the last tier of talents. My goal was to see, under "ideal" conditions (i.e. maximum uptime, etc.), which talent would yield the higher SP buff. Here is my math (again, I simplified things):

Assuming a 300s fight.

A) Incanter's Ward, if we never cast it and use the passive, we get a flat 6% SP, easy. Now, the other extreme, we cast it on CD and the shield always gets fully absorbed, then assuming we pre-cast it exactly on pull, we cast it 11 times during fight, so for 16.5s we are doing 0 dps. During the remaining time until it is off-CD, we get 15s of 30% SP and 8.5s of no buff. Average 19.1% SP. Then, for the total fight we have an average of 12.5% SP increase on dps time.

B) Rune of Power, is a little easier, assuming we pre-cast on pull, we need to reapply every 60s. During the fight we spend then a total of 6s casting it. It averages out to 12.7% SP on dps time.

C) Invocation, we get a flat 25% SP buff when we are not evocating, but we spend 36s doing that during the fight. It averages to 10% SP on dps time.


Summary:
Incanter's ward passive: 6%
Incanter's ward on-cd: 12.5%
Rune of power: 12.7%
Invocation: 10%

Of course, we then need to be realistic that IW on cd is almost impossible to guarantee the shield will always be fully absorbed, rune of power may require recasting more often, invocation may not complete, etc.

Conclusion: would taking Incanter's ward and never casting it be viable? because it is a solid, no-frills, guaranteed 6% SP increase?

I know you were simplifying things here, but in doing so you got some misleading results.

For Incanter's Ward it looks like you are assuming the shield not only gets full absorbed, but also that it gets fully absorbed IMMEDIATELY upon application, which of course isn't going to happen. Simulation of perfect play(which still yields less than perfect uptime do to mechanics and priorities) shows the benefit to be about 10%

Rune of Power is a little more straightforward from a math perspective but not very realistic. This is assuming a Patchwork fight with 0 movement and somehow not having Rune conflict with other priorities like bomb reapplication or procs.

Invocation math is assuming 0% haste which is essentially impossible. The average channel time of Evocation will be closer to 5 seconds, yielding a higher percentage.

Using all three with average efficiency should net a 10% gain which we are obviously balanced around. So no, taking Incanter's Ward and never using it will not be a viable option.

[scuac]

I know you were simplifying things here, but in doing so you got some misleading results.

For Incanter's Ward it looks like you are assuming the shield not only gets full absorbed, but also that it gets fully absorbed IMMEDIATELY upon application, which of course isn't going to happen. Simulation of perfect play(which still yields less than perfect uptime do to mechanics and priorities) shows the benefit to be about 10%

Rune of Power is a little more straightforward from a math perspective but not very realistic. This is assuming a Patchwork fight with 0 movement and somehow not having Rune conflict with other priorities like bomb reapplication or procs.

Invocation math is assuming 0% haste which is essentially impossible. The average channel time of Evocation will be closer to 5 seconds, yielding a higher percentage.

Using all three with average efficiency should net a 10% gain which we are obviously balanced around. So no, taking Incanter's Ward and never using it will not be a viable option.

I didn't assume the shield is absorbed immediately, but whether it gets absorbed in 0.1sec or in 8sec is irrelevant, since the CD of IW is 25s and 8s of shield duration + 15s of buff = 23s < 25s of CD.

ANYWAY, if you are saying that simulations show all three talents averaging around 10% on more realistic fights, then my point is even stronger. Is a 4% extra SP buff worth the whole trouble of managing these new talents? How much difference does that make on DPS? Especially since I would not have to worry about these new talents mechanics and just concentrate on my rotation.

[Methusula]

The extra 4% is a big difference considering it is with average use. Meaning imperfect use and uptime. Elite mages will be able to squeeze out additional uptime on these buffs and make the gap even wider. I don't see how you think 4% with average use isn't a benefit.

[scuac]

The extra 4% is a big difference considering it is with average use. Meaning imperfect use and uptime. Elite mages will be able to squeeze out additional uptime on these buffs and make the gap even wider. I don't see how you think 4% with average use isn't a benefit.

Well my question was, how does extra 4% SP translate on final extra DPS? And I ask this considering that, and I quote myself, "I would not have to worry about these new talents mechanics and just concentrate on my rotation.". Sure, if you are an elite player pushing world firsts, obviously you want to take every inch of advantage you can. But for the regular player doing normals only, is it worth it to complicate your rotation with these talents?

Or to put it another way, is it possible that for some players the difference in extra SP gets cancelled out by the fact that they now have a more complicated rotation that is harder to execute?

[Max Rebo]

Or to put it another way, is it possible that for some players the difference in extra SP gets cancelled out by the fact that they now have a more complicated rotation that is harder to execute?

It's definitely possible. As Methusula stated, elite players will perhaps be able to handle the extra complexity a bit better than other players so they yield a bit more uptime on the buff(s). I wouldn't worry about it too much, though, as Blizzard isn't assuming perfect uptime on these, which is likely impossible anyway. That's not to say some folks won't be able to approach that level.

[Methusula]

But the complication of your rotation is factored into the balancing of these talents. Average use=regular players. The 4% bonus is for average players. Also "average players" is a very lose term. Average players aren't level 85 yet. "Average raiders" in my book are normal mode raiders and 4% extra spell damage is huge.

Edit:It looks like you are factoring 4% spell power even though these talents provide spell damage, making the calculation of how much you gain much easier.

[scuac]

But the complication of your rotation is factored into the balancing of these talents. Average use=regular players. The 4% bonus is for average players. Also "average players" is a very lose term. Average players aren't level 85 yet. "Average raiders" in my book are normal mode raiders and 4% extra spell damage is huge.

Edit:It looks like you are factoring 4% spell power even though these talents provide spell damage, making the calculation of how much you gain much easier.

You know, you're right, I completely misread the talents as giving SP instead of spell dmg. So it is a flat 4% difference in dps. In that case, it is not small. I was just hoping that there would be a way to avoid the hassle these talents will bring. Because that is what they are, as hassle.

[ns66]

it's not that simple, you haven't considered the mana difference among all 3, it will make big difference in dps output

i'd think Rune of Power is pretty much hassle free and the way to go, i wouldn't count on ward absorption at all, the mech is backward and i don't like blizzard's way of doing this at all, you want to get hit to get benefit, i mean wth

[Methusula]

Mana is only really an issue for arcane though. In my opinion, Rune is the biggest hassle of the three. The targeting circle is worth a global and then we have the cast time on top of it. The biggest issue though is obviously the fact that we have to stand on the rune to get the benefit. There is a lot of movement in raids these days. Rune is a laughable choice in pvp, and good luck doing Challenge Modes with it.

[scuac]

Mana is only really an issue for arcane though. In my opinion, Rune is the biggest hassle of the three. The targeting circle is worth a global and then we have the cast time on top of it. The biggest issue though is obviously the fact that we have to stand on the rune to get the benefit. There is a lot of movement in raids these days. Rune is a laughable choice in pvp, and good luck doing Challenge Modes with it.

Your're right. I just didn't want to turn this into a "L90 talents suck"... but they do :P
All three have glaring problems:
Rune of Power: you have to stand in it, and don't move from there
Incanter's Ward: you need to get hit to get benefit, preferably enough to use up the whole shield
Invocation: have to stay still and channel the spell for 5~6s every 40s, and pray that it doesn't get interrupted.

I just think it is sad that the mage's L90 talents is something NOT to look forward to.

[ns66]

pvp obviously should use the ward, i don't see any other choice

pve the ward is just not practical, most of the time mage doesn't get hit, rune is a better choice most of the time, if moving is frequent the mage is no good to begin with, regardless of talent

[Meridian]

Ok sticking with the assuming a 300s fight i tried to put some dps numbers to see which would knock out the most damage. I took 50k dps as a standard damage done with none of the spell power from the talents. (50k DPS is just a nice round number for math).

Invocation: 25 seconds spent casting is equal to 0dps, 275 seconds of 25% SP is equal to 50k + 25% = 62,500 DPS
So 62,500 * 275 = Total Damage 17,187,500

Rune of Power: 3 seconds spent casting is equal to 0dps, 297 seconds of 15% SP is equal to 50K + 15% = 57,500 DPS
So 57,500 * 297 = Total Damage 17,077,500

Incanter's Ward 6% Passive: Just using the passive 50k + 6% = 53,000 DPS
So 53,000 * 300 = Total Damage 15,900,000

Incanter's Ward 30% Shield: Assuming full absorb and kept on CD is equal to 180 seconds at 30% SP that is 50k + 30% = 65,000 DPS, and 120 seconds at 0% SP which is 50k DPS.
So (180 * 65000) + (120 * 50000) = Total Damage of 17,700,000

If you take the total damage number only you can see that under PERFECT conditions they are around about the same (the 6% passive calculations are only there because it was mentioned in the OP and it is not good to use). We mages basically have to pick the talent to fit the boss we are faceing. Lets face the fact that getting Incanter's Ward to work with the full absorb every CD is not going to happen and its pretty much a PVP talent choice.

Between Invocation and Rune of Power we have two things to consider the first is the boss we are faceing do we have time to channel Invocation or do we need to move a lot and have well placed Runes ready to stand on. The second is MANA and how will the talent you pick affect your mana. What ever the case cant wait to hit 90

[scuac]

Ok sticking with the assuming a 300s fight i tried to put some dps numbers to see which would knock out the most damage. I took 50k dps as a standard damage done with none of the spell power from the talents. (50k DPS is just a nice round number for math).

Invocation: 25 seconds spent casting is equal to 0dps, 275 seconds of 25% SP is equal to 50k + 25% = 62,500 DPS
So 62,500 * 275 = Total Damage 17,187,500

Rune of Power: 3 seconds spent casting is equal to 0dps, 297 seconds of 15% SP is equal to 50K + 15% = 57,500 DPS
So 57,500 * 297 = Total Damage 17,077,500

Incanter's Ward 6% Passive: Just using the passive 50k + 6% = 53,000 DPS
So 53,000 * 300 = Total Damage 15,900,000

Incanter's Ward 30% Shield: Assuming full absorb and kept on CD is equal to 180 seconds at 30% SP that is 50k + 30% = 65,000 DPS, and 120 seconds at 0% SP which is 50k DPS.
So (180 * 65000) + (120 * 50000) = Total Damage of 17,700,000

If you take the total damage number only you can see that under PERFECT conditions they are around about the same (the 6% passive calculations are only there because it was mentioned in the OP and it is not good to use). We mages basically have to pick the talent to fit the boss we are faceing. Lets face the fact that getting Incanter's Ward to work with the full absorb every CD is not going to happen and its pretty much a PVP talent choice.

Between Invocation and Rune of Power we have two things to consider the first is the boss we are faceing do we have time to channel Invocation or do we need to move a lot and have well placed Runes ready to stand on. The second is MANA and how will the talent you pick affect your mana. What ever the case cant wait to hit 90

Well, while your conclusions may be right, your math is off. You only spend 3sec with Rune of Power over 300s? Then there are 180s where you have no runes to stand on, therefore no buff. Same for other calculations.

[Soulstrike]

Your're right. I just didn't want to turn this into a "L90 talents suck"... but they do :P
All three have glaring problems:
Rune of Power: you have to stand in it, and don't move from there
Incanter's Ward: you need to get hit to get benefit, preferably enough to use up the whole shield
Invocation: have to stay still and channel the spell for 5~6s every 40s, and pray that it doesn't get interrupted.

I just think it is sad that the mage's L90 talents is something NOT to look forward to.

i beg to differ :P

i will be looking foward to test out which of these three talents are the best for different boss :P