Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    From my experience with raid testing on Beta, Spirit is going to be the stat that is stacked, at least for the first 2 tiers. Even with the changes, Shaman have very dicey regen in level 90 raid testing, and I can tell you that straight up, mana longevity is the limiting factor in throughput.

    INT has lost a huge amount of value, both because regen is more important at level 90 (and is more important than it even was at the start of T11 - because mana is tighter than that) and because it no longer provides any regen with the fixed mana pools. Basically, INT is the same as the old spell power stat was pre-Cata. In WoTLK, when spell power and INT were seperate stats, paladins and disc priests generally gemmed pure INT and Shaman generally gemmed pure Haste.

    Also, the stat allocation for Spirit and other secondary stats is double what it is for INT and primary stats. Therefore, a blue quality gem is 320 Spirit or 160 INT. Given MoP mana regen mechanics, I don't think that INT is worth taking over Spirit at a 1:1 ratio. There is no way in hell it's worth taking over Spirit at a 0.5:1 ratio.

    I strongly believe that the stat priority will be Spirit > Mastery/Crit > Intellect > Haste

    Therefore, the optimal gemming will probably be:

    -Blue Sockets - 320 Spirit
    -Red Sockets - 80 INT, 160 Spirit
    -Green Sockets - 160 Mastery, 160 Spirit

    Or pure Spirit gems, ignoring some socket bonuses. Pandaren will be the best race choice (gives an effective +300 Spirit with the best available Spirit food), and Tailoring/Blacksmithing will be the strongest professions, because both give Spirit over INT options and result in the highest possible Spirit gain.
    I can agree with this, but I am doing some more math currently to be sure. My post above was more "Int vs. Mastery/Crit" then "Int vs. Mastery/Crit vs. Spirit". I did not account for regen.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    From my experience with raid testing on Beta, Spirit is going to be the stat that is stacked, at least for the first 2 tiers. Even with the changes, Shaman have very dicey regen in level 90 raid testing, and I can tell you that straight up, mana longevity is the limiting factor in throughput.

    INT has lost a huge amount of value, both because regen is more important at level 90 (and is more important than it even was at the start of T11 - because mana is tighter than that) and because it no longer provides any regen with the fixed mana pools. Basically, INT is the same as the old spell power stat was pre-Cata. In WoTLK, when spell power and INT were seperate stats, paladins and disc priests generally gemmed pure INT and Shaman generally gemmed pure Haste.

    Also, the stat allocation for Spirit and other secondary stats is double what it is for INT and primary stats. Therefore, a blue quality gem is 320 Spirit or 160 INT. Given MoP mana regen mechanics, I don't think that INT is worth taking over Spirit at a 1:1 ratio. There is no way in hell it's worth taking over Spirit at a 0.5:1 ratio.

    I strongly believe that the stat priority will be Spirit > Mastery/Crit > Intellect > Haste

    Therefore, the optimal gemming will probably be:

    -Blue Sockets - 320 Spirit
    -Red Sockets - 80 INT, 160 Spirit
    -Green Sockets - 160 Mastery, 160 Spirit

    Or pure Spirit gems, ignoring some socket bonuses. Pandaren will be the best race choice (gives an effective +300 Spirit with the best available Spirit food), and Tailoring/Blacksmithing will be the strongest professions, because both give Spirit over INT options and result in the highest possible Spirit gain.
    I wouldn't count out Jewelcrafting because they can make pure spirit gems rather than tailor's proc bonus.

    I actually am really on board with the gem mostly spirit crew. If mana is a big issue and it looks like it will be, then we'll give up Int for more sustainability. If people are really hurt, the resto mastery is really helpful anyway...it gives you throughput when you need it the most and reduces your overheal. I am beginning to think Int is more of a waste without the regen boost without dealing with overheal and all that. If mana isn't an issue, then we'll probably be looking at Int unless a secondary stat really goes wild. I wish I knew more about how to compare it to mastery...but mastery is such a difficult stat to gauge. You end up making assumptions that you often can't afford to make.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanyuu View Post
    I wouldn't count out Jewelcrafting because they can make pure spirit gems rather than tailor's proc bonus.

    I actually am really on board with the gem mostly spirit crew. If mana is a big issue and it looks like it will be, then we'll give up Int for more sustainability. If people are really hurt, the resto mastery is really helpful anyway...it gives you throughput when you need it the most and reduces your overheal. I am beginning to think Int is more of a waste without the regen boost without dealing with overheal and all that. If mana isn't an issue, then we'll probably be looking at Int unless a secondary stat really goes wild. I wish I knew more about how to compare it to mastery...but mastery is such a difficult stat to gauge. You end up making assumptions that you often can't afford to make.
    JCing gives a very low bonus to Spirit, 320 compared to BS 640 and Tailoring's 675 average. The average Spirit evens out on a fight, so it is not wasted no matter when it procs as long as you are not at 100% mana. It also stacks with Mana Tide, giving it even more value.

    Overall, right now it looks like Spirit > Mastery = Crit > Int > Haste in terms of gemming.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Table View Post
    JCing gives a very low bonus to Spirit, 320 compared to BS 640 and Tailoring's 675 average. The average Spirit evens out on a fight, so it is not wasted no matter when it procs as long as you are not at 100% mana. It also stacks with Mana Tide, giving it even more value.

    Overall, right now it looks like Spirit > Mastery = Crit > Int > Haste in terms of gemming.
    Sorry, my information was bad and painfully so. Blacksmithing will be by far the best profession for anyone wanting secondary stats and jewelcrafting is totally useless in that regard. I must have missed the fact the jewelcrafting gems were so bad. If we predict epic gems will com out eventually, then blacksmithing gets even farther ahead.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanyuu View Post
    Sorry, my information was bad and painfully so. Blacksmithing will be by far the best profession for anyone wanting secondary stats and jewelcrafting is totally useless in that regard. I must have missed the fact the jewelcrafting gems were so bad. If we predict epic gems will com out eventually, then blacksmithing gets even farther ahead.
    Not always true.

    In wrath JC'ing and all other profession perks were boosted when epic gems came out to even it all out. In Cata however Blizzard didn't change the other professions.
    It's the internet. You never know if people are either sarcastic or just bad.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Like I said, unless you value spirit and intellect exactly equally these gems don't make much sense, because if int is better you would go red int, purple int/spirit in blue slots, if spirit is better you would go spirit blue, purple int/spirit in red slots. In reality it seems unlikely you will find both stats equal in value, especially if you choose to go Int/Crit instead of Spirit/Crit for example.



    Not that I know of off the top of my head. However, there will still be a best stat FOR YOU no matter what (well there is the rare situation where the stats are so close to equal its a non-issue, but due to the nature of healers and how varied encounters can be this almost never happens for healers). Either Int will be better than Haste/Crit/Mastery, or the extra secondary stats you get from gems will mean its better to take those over Int. That will always be the case. As for spirit there will be a sort of imaginary 'cap' on it at which point you don't need any more, and this cap will vary based on what content your playing, your fellow healers, your raid size and your gear (ie lots of haste on your gear = need more spirit). The likelihood of all these variables putting Int and Spirit exactly equal is very small.
    I already told you that i consider spirit to be bettee than Int for us, i dont know why you continue this, if it doesnt make sense to you then dont use it its that simple.

    And no i wont use spirit in the reds, because i want to gem for some int since i cant reforge into int so without getting better gear gems are where i will try to get a little more int, but not neccesary in every gem.

    Dont make sense to you? Dont use it, i was replying to the OP question.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    I already told you that i consider spirit to be bettee than Int for us, i dont know why you continue this, if it doesnt make sense to you then dont use it its that simple.

    And no i wont use spirit in the reds, because i want to gem for some int since i cant reforge into int so without getting better gear gems are where i will try to get a little more int, but not neccesary in every gem.

    Dont make sense to you? Dont use it, i was replying to the OP question.
    If you 'want int because you can't reforge for it' then you should be using Int/Spirit in your blue sockets too. Either Spirit is better than Int or its not. If its better than you should be dropping Int for Spirit, if its not you should be dropping Spirit for Int. Like I said, unless there is some 'spirit cap' where beyond it more spirit becomes less useful and that cap is reached by you putting all spirit blues so you're able to go all Int Reds then thats fine, but the likelihood of your gear being in this exact situation is pretty small and as such you should - to perform optimally - work out which of the two stats is more beneficial to you and take that one.

    Saying 'I want int because I cant get it without getting more gear' is contradicted by the fact you take flat Spirit in blue slots.


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    From my experience with raid testing on Beta, Spirit is going to be the stat that is stacked, at least for the first 2 tiers. Even with the changes, Shaman have very dicey regen in level 90 raid testing, and I can tell you that straight up, mana longevity is the limiting factor in throughput.

    INT has lost a huge amount of value, both because regen is more important at level 90 (and is more important than it even was at the start of T11 - because mana is tighter than that) and because it no longer provides any regen with the fixed mana pools. Basically, INT is the same as the old spell power stat was pre-Cata. In WoTLK, when spell power and INT were seperate stats, paladins and disc priests generally gemmed pure INT and Shaman generally gemmed pure Haste.

    Also, the stat allocation for Spirit and other secondary stats is double what it is for INT and primary stats. Therefore, a blue quality gem is 320 Spirit or 160 INT. Given MoP mana regen mechanics, I don't think that INT is worth taking over Spirit at a 1:1 ratio. There is no way in hell it's worth taking over Spirit at a 0.5:1 ratio.

    I strongly believe that the stat priority will be Spirit > Mastery/Crit > Intellect > Haste

    Therefore, the optimal gemming will probably be:

    -Blue Sockets - 320 Spirit
    -Red Sockets - 80 INT, 160 Spirit
    -Green Sockets - 160 Mastery, 160 Spirit

    Or pure Spirit gems, ignoring some socket bonuses. Pandaren will be the best race choice (gives an effective +300 Spirit with the best available Spirit food), and Tailoring/Blacksmithing will be the strongest professions, because both give Spirit over INT options and result in the highest possible Spirit gain.
    Sums it up. Pretty horrible how profession balance is shit for spirit.

    [A] ★ ScrubBusters - 25 man HC - Currently recruiting.
    ScrubBusters.com - Wowprogress - YouTube Channel

  9. #29
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Dô yöû even liƒt¿
    Posts
    671
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I strongly believe that the stat priority will be Spirit > Mastery/Crit > Intellect > Haste

    Therefore, the optimal gemming will probably be:

    -Blue Sockets - 320 Spirit
    -Red Sockets - 80 INT, 160 Spirit
    -Green Sockets - 160 Mastery, 160 Spirit
    The fact that you gem secondary stats doesn't mean secondary stats are better. As you said you get 1 int per 2 secondary stats so that's why you're going to gem secondary stat instead of pure int.

    IMO stat weights could be also INT>=SPI>CRIT/MAS>HASTE where INT could be worth 2.5 hps, SPI 2.35 hps and CRIT/MAS 2 hps but the fact that you get double secondary stats make them a better choice (you get 400 hps for INT, 752 hps SPI and 640 hps CRIT/MAS from pure gem). These numbers are random, just to make an example.

    Beside this I think spirit got his own cap: when you are confortable with mana regen you gem for another secondary stat, like haste (first, second and last soft cap) and mastery (there will be most likely a cap where you get more benefit gemming crit or reaching the next soft haste cap). So I don't see any point where gemming straight spirit would worth more healing, maybe just the few first week of a new raid.
    Last edited by Italiandk; 2012-09-13 at 01:14 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    If you 'want int because you can't reforge for it' then you should be using Int/Spirit in your blue sockets too. Either Spirit is better than Int or its not. If its better than you should be dropping Int for Spirit, if its not you should be dropping Spirit for Int. Like I said, unless there is some 'spirit cap' where beyond it more spirit becomes less useful and that cap is reached by you putting all spirit blues so you're able to go all Int Reds then thats fine, but the likelihood of your gear being in this exact situation is pretty small and as such you should - to perform optimally - work out which of the two stats is more beneficial to you and take that one.

    Saying 'I want int because I cant get it without getting more gear' is contradicted by the fact you take flat Spirit in blue slots.
    Spirit is better. But i like to balance my shaman and so thats why i throw some int there too. I will use spirit in blues because its better, but i will use int in reds because getting spell power is also important, though less than spirit.

    Again, this is my setup for the start, then ill change it according to my needs/my group needs. I might end with all spirit gems or all mastery or all crit, just not from scratch.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    The fact that you gem secondary stats doesn't mean secondary stats are better. As you said you get 1 int per 2 secondary stats so that's why you're going to gem secondary stat instead of pure int.

    IMO stat weights could be also INT>=SPI>CRIT/MAS>HASTE where INT could be worth 2.5 hps, SPI 2.35 hps and CRIT/MAS 2 hps but the fact that you get double secondary stats make them a better choice (you get 400 hps for INT, 752 hps SPI and 640 hps CRIT/MAS from pure gem). These numbers are random, just to make an example.

    Beside this I think spirit got his own cap: when you are confortable with mana regen you gem for another secondary stat, like haste (first, second and last soft cap) and mastery (there will be most likely a cap where you get more benefit gemming crit or reaching the next soft haste cap). So I don't see any point where gemming straight spirit would worth more healing, maybe just the few first week of a new raid.
    My opinion that Spirit is better than Int is based on heroic 25 man raid testing, in which gear was scaled up to the intended item level for the raid (you basically were scaled up to the equivalent of having full T14 normal mode gear). The mana regen issue does not go away at any gear point in raids. It isn't a "I only need to stack Spirit while doing 5 mans in levelling greens thing"; it's far worse than it was at the start of Cata. I don't feel like you will get to the point where you would consider dropping Spirit until at least mid T15 if ever.

    What I am saying is 1 Spirit > 1 INT. Even if the stats were at a 1:1 ratio, I would take Spirit over INT. In situations were you can get Spirit at a 2:1 ratio, both in terms of profession choices or gems, it's a complete no brainer.

  12. #32
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Dô yöû even liƒt¿
    Posts
    671
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    My opinion that Spirit is better than Int is based on heroic 25 man raid testing, in which gear was scaled up to the intended item level for the raid (you basically were scaled up to the equivalent of having full T14 normal mode gear). The mana regen issue does not go away at any gear point in raids. It isn't a "I only need to stack Spirit while doing 5 mans in levelling greens thing"; it's far worse than it was at the start of Cata. I don't feel like you will get to the point where you would consider dropping Spirit until at least mid T15 if ever.

    What I am saying is 1 Spirit > 1 INT. Even if the stats were at a 1:1 ratio, I would take Spirit over INT. In situations were you can get Spirit at a 2:1 ratio, both in terms of profession choices or gems, it's a complete no brainer.
    The mana is an issue when you first enter a new raid/dungeon and you will heal/overheal way more than you should do. Once you (as a team) get used to a certain fight (that doesn't mean you kill the boss, it means that you know what's going to happen, dps stay out bad stuff and so on) I think you could gem out of spirit. Remember that more intellect = more spellpower and a bit of crit => bigger heals => less heals per minute = less mana needed/used per minute => more glyphed LB per minute = more mana gained per minute.

    To sum it up: don't gem spirit blindly.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    To sum it up: don't gem spirit blindly.
    While that is good advice, the problem I see right now is that Blacksmithing provides way too much flexibility. If you don't need those double spirit gems - you can always change them to whatever you want and even mix and match.

    Spent my evening yesterday leveling up Blacksmithing : (
    Healing with different classes since Vanilla
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Higgs/advanced

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    The mana is an issue when you first enter a new raid/dungeon and you will heal/overheal way more than you should do. Once you (as a team) get used to a certain fight (that doesn't mean you kill the boss, it means that you know what's going to happen, dps stay out bad stuff and so on) I think you could gem out of spirit. Remember that more intellect = more spellpower and a bit of crit => bigger heals => less heals per minute = less mana needed/used per minute => more glyphed LB per minute = more mana gained per minute.

    To sum it up: don't gem spirit blindly.
    Did you actually do any heroic raid testing on beta? If not, you really shouldn't be giving advise, because MoP raiding is nothing like Cata in terms of healer longevity. While what you described was more or less the case for Cata, it definitely is not the case for MoP. Mana regen is so ridiculously limiting (when you actually need to do more than Riptide on CD with the occasional Healing Wave - i.e. all raid content) that regen will be the limiting factor - even at heroic raid testing itemization levels.

    Basically, until you are at the point where you can use Healing Rain, Healing Stream Totem and Riptide on cooldown while casting an acceptable amount of filler direct heals/Chain Heals and not be OOM 3 minutes into a fight, Spirit > anything else. That point is nowhere close to realization at T14 gear levels.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •