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  1. #61
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    Hey Requiel. Great work! What I would like to know is what kind of variables would lead to you and Esoterickk having conflicting BiS lists?

    After all, these values are derived from heavy simming with masses of iterations, patchwerk style tier 14H. You get the weights from that and apply it into your spread sheet, correct?

  2. #62
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roseby View Post
    Hey Requiel. Great work! What I would like to know is what kind of variables would lead to you and Esoterickk having conflicting BiS lists?

    After all, these values are derived from heavy simming with masses of iterations, patchwerk style tier 14H. You get the weights from that and apply it into your spread sheet, correct?
    While is does tell you what is the best item for that slot it disregards teir bonuses. the only other thing I see is different is the ring which is more likely an oversight.
    the values that are default is a modified version of SMF simc values, hit is higher than mastery, exp is slightly higher. this is done so exp gear is not neglected and hit is better than mastery according to landsoul. To fully optimize this you will need to do your own simming, BIS shouldn't change but the upgrade path will.

  3. #63
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    Well yeah, I understand that part. Same as DS, with Shoulders being the odd man out.

    On who's part would you say the ring is an oversight on?

  4. #64
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roseby View Post
    Well yeah, I understand that part. Same as DS, with Shoulders being the odd man out.

    On who's part would you say the ring is an oversight on?
    his part, bladed tempest is god awful and golden stair and bandit lord are by far better due to the crit which outweighs the loss of strength.

  5. #65
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    Probably BiS then. If not listed, it might be due to how unrealistic it is for many warriors to attain. The RNG of Galleon stacked on top of the RNG of the loot system.

    VP Pumping, here we come.
    Last edited by Roseby; 2012-11-21 at 07:03 AM.

  6. #66
    Dreadlord esoterickk's Avatar
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    Just in regards to the ring (hopefully the post made sense ):

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post19177793
    The main reason you'll see some conflicts is due to at an individual level, some pieces will be better itemized than others. However at a full gearset level some pieces gain/lose value due to requirements of hitting caps and optimal reforges.

    That being said, the BiS list I provided is based off the simcraft BiS profile.

    I'm normally hesitant to rely on simcraft for such decisions, but with it being one of the closest theorycrafting resources we have and BiS profiles leaving limited options when the stat weights are correct (which simcraft is correct in stat weights; coupled with the disparity between all secondary stats vs crit), it means there's very little room for error when calculating which set will provide the most desirable stats when put together. For the most part there's clear winners in each slot, however there are a few that are close (such as the ring) and they seem to be correct.

    I've seen reference to this in a few threads and hopefully this post will help clear it up; mainly in reference to choice on the ring.

    At an individual level, only with their base stats:

    Signet of the Bandit Lord (Galleon ring): http://www.wowhead.com/item=90438
    STR: 682
    CRIT: 345
    EXP: 518

    vs

    Ring of the Bladed Tempest (Bladelord ring):
    STR: 769
    EXP: 402
    HASTE: 578

    Comparing these two alone and based off the statweights/calculations in his spreadsheet (STR 3.32 / CRIT 2.7):
    3972.74DPS vs 3745.64 DPS, the Galleon ring beating it by ~200DPS.

    However you'll notice the stats are taken without reforge, meaning the crit you get from taking out haste isn't calculated.

    Taking this into account, it now becomes:
    STR: 769
    EXP: 402
    HASTE: 347
    CRIT: 231

    Which pushes Ring of the Bladed Tempest to 4133.72 DPS reforged, beating out the Galleon ring's 3972.74 DPS when it already has the ideal Crit/Expertise combo.

    It's no fault that these results occur and his spreadsheet is a great tool which I use myself. It's just very difficult to take items on individual level and evaluate their worth without all the variables of your current gear, rating caps and reforges.

  7. #67
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esoterickk View Post
    It's just very difficult to take items on individual level and evaluate their worth without all the variables of your current gear, rating caps and reforges
    oversight on my part. this is the main reason I left reforging out (I could do it if people really want it), its just to unreasonable to reforge items without knowing the stats on the character and whether the reforge will prevent them from reach caps or cause other items to reforged negatively just to reach a cap, with that being said I could also reforge the exp on the ring to hit/mastery (smf/tg) which would make it better.
    Last edited by Requiel; 2012-11-22 at 02:57 AM.

  8. #68
    Dreadlord esoterickk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiel View Post
    oversight on my part. this is the main reason I left reforging out (I could do it if people really want it), its just to unreasonable to reforge items without knowing the stats on the character and whether the reforge will prevent them from reach caps or cause other items to reforged negatively just to reach a cap, with that being said I could also reforge the exp on the ring to hit/mastery (smf/tg) which would make it better.
    There's only so much that can be done until you use their API and import character data into the spreadsheet and populate it like that. Else there's far too many variables to cater for without the original character data that would remove the convenience of a spreadsheet and make it too manual for average users. Would be quite the task

    In regards to the ring, even with the reforge to Hit it still loses out and this is on the assumption that you're not Hit capped. When comparing the two in such a manner, Crit/Exp/Hit (before cap) are infinitely better than Mastery/Haste/Hit (over cap) as is. Crit/Exp means the ring is already using two of the ideal stats. In that sense, seeing as the comparison doesn't take caps into account - reforging to hit/mastery over cap would actually degrade the value of it. Where as the Haste reforge is always bound to happen (least desirable stat); making reforges on the Signet hold little baring over how good it is.

    Which leads to my next question; what has Expertise at a 1.5 value (under cap) when Mastery is even higher? When simming my character, Expertise/Hit before cap beat out everything (albeit Hit slightly better), however the spreadsheet has it at 1.5 below nearly everything?
    Last edited by esoterickk; 2012-11-22 at 04:00 AM.

  9. #69
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esoterickk View Post
    Which leads to my next question; what has Expertise at a 1.5 value (under cap) when Mastery is even higher? When simming my character, Expertise/Hit before cap beat out everything (albeit Hit slightly better), however the spreadsheet has it at 1.5 below nearly everything?
    Assumptions with stats is always tricky, if the assume they're under cap then hit/exp would destroy everything else. If I assume they're over cap and wont reforge crit into hit/exp then exp/hit gear would be at the bottom of the list. so I normalize exp and hit by default because the spreadsheet has no logic. mastery should be 1.1 (for SMF) but I must of missed that. Ill make a normalized set of value for each spec to make it less confusing.

  10. #70
    Dreadlord esoterickk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiel View Post
    Assumptions with stats is always tricky, if the assume they're under cap then hit/exp would destroy everything else. If I assume they're over cap and wont reforge crit into hit/exp then exp/hit gear would be at the bottom of the list. so I normalize exp and hit by default because the spreadsheet has no logic. mastery should be 1.1 (for SMF) but I must of missed that. Ill make a normalized set of value for each spec to make it less confusing.
    Makes sense! Tricky scenario Thanks for all your work with this so far though! Looking forward to seeing the developments, it's grown quite nicely ^^

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Requiel View Post
    Assumptions with stats is always tricky, if the assume they're under cap then hit/exp would destroy everything else. If I assume they're over cap and wont reforge crit into hit/exp then exp/hit gear would be at the bottom of the list. so I normalize exp and hit by default because the spreadsheet has no logic. mastery should be 1.1 (for SMF) but I must of missed that. Ill make a normalized set of value for each spec to make it less confusing.
    Thanks for the work!

  12. #72
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esoterickk View Post
    Makes sense! Tricky scenario Thanks for all your work with this so far though! Looking forward to seeing the developments, it's grown quite nicely ^^
    Eso, you are the man. Your fury warrior guide grew me from a little pup to some top world rankings. Of course you have to get experimenting and practice as an individual for mastery, but thanks alot bro.

  13. #73
    Pandaren Monk Freedom's Avatar
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    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=93403

    Any plans to add this thing to the Sha-touched weapons? When I manually added it, just off stat weights etc alone your spreadsheet said that N Jaws > H Elegion and LFR Jaws > N Elegion by a fair margin on both taking in to account the extra crit gem, which agrees with the simcraft results I have been getting. Same for N Shin'ka versus H Starshatter and LFR Shin'ka versus N Starshatter.
    Last edited by Freedom; 2012-11-23 at 03:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    What parts of personal life were dropped to achieve this "world first"? What sleep patterns were used/abused? Did the raiders eat and drink properly during said "progress"? ... These are important questions that should be addressed before we even start "admiring" that world first.
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  14. #74
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=93403

    Any plans to add this thing to the Sha-touched weapons? When I manually added it, just off stat weights etc alone your spreadsheet said that N Jaws > H Elegion and LFR Jaws > N Elegion by a fair margin on both taking in to account the extra crit gem, which agrees with the simcraft results I have been getting. Same for N Shin'ka versus H Starshatter and LFR Shin'ka versus N Starshatter.
    I will, Thanks for letting me know about this, though I'm still deciding whether I should add item upgrades.

  15. #75
    Pandaren Monk Freedom's Avatar
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    I'd consider item upgrades to be akin to belt buckles or enchants on chest etc personally - don't see how they would affect different items differently. Upgrade your BiS trinkets/weapons first, obviously, then do things like Head/Legs --> gloves/belt/boots/shoulders ---> neck/rings/cape. I guess upgraded Conq items versus VP gear and normal/LFR items might be useful, but let's be honest - if you're using the spreadsheet chances are you don't live in LFR only.
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    What parts of personal life were dropped to achieve this "world first"? What sleep patterns were used/abused? Did the raiders eat and drink properly during said "progress"? ... These are important questions that should be addressed before we even start "admiring" that world first.
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  16. #76
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    I'd consider item upgrades to be akin to belt buckles or enchants on chest etc personally - don't see how they would affect different items differently. Upgrade your BiS trinkets/weapons first, obviously, then do things like Head/Legs --> gloves/belt/boots/shoulders ---> neck/rings/cape. I guess upgraded Conq items versus VP gear and normal/LFR items might be useful, but let's be honest - if you're using the spreadsheet chances are you don't live in LFR only.
    Wouldn't really say its similar to belt buckles as belt buckles are one slot and easily obtainable (not one per week with VP). the reasoning I have for it at the moment is for a few scenarios. is item X > Item Y with 1 or 2 upgrades (short term up grade), will upgrading item X be better than upgrading Item Y ( some trinkets might be better to upgrade than weapons) and lastly to minimise "WHICH ITEM DO I UPGRADE FIRST" threads from popping up by having a way to show which is the better upgrade to do first.

  17. #77
    Pandaren Monk Freedom's Avatar
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    As far as reforging goes, maybe add an option to reforge the weakest stat (mastery or haste) on a critless piece to crit automatically? Or to hit or mastery on something like the tier chest ( it's crit/ haste and Garalon chest is crit/ hit- I'd like to see if Garalon's chest still beats tier by more than misshapen shoulders beat tier in 5.1 according to stat weights without doing a bunch of math, and some other pieces too).

    Blah, went ahead and did it manually, assuming hit> mastery over 7.5% in 5.1, and reforging accordingly, Garalon chest is actually BiS over Ambershaper shoulders. I know reforging isn't static, but the difference between ambershaper shoulders and tier shoulders w/ haste reforged to crit is negligible.

    Edit edit: according to SimC on SMF BIS on both live and PTR, 10,000 iterations, Mastery> hit over hitcap, so I'll need to re-do some of the things. It didn't end up affecting the tier priority though, I don't think. I'd trust it more if you did this button thing, do haste ---> crit or haste ---> mastery/hit depending on what the piece has on it, preferring hit for simplicity and consistency on how the rest of the sheet is set up.
    Last edited by Freedom; 2012-11-25 at 11:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    What parts of personal life were dropped to achieve this "world first"? What sleep patterns were used/abused? Did the raiders eat and drink properly during said "progress"? ... These are important questions that should be addressed before we even start "admiring" that world first.
    Many Multitudes Online Constantly Harping About Minor Problems
    FIRE GIVES ME BIGGER BLOOD SHIELDS

  18. #78
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    As far as reforging goes, maybe add an option to reforge the weakest stat (mastery or haste) on a critless piece to crit automatically? Or to hit or mastery on something like the tier chest ( it's crit/ haste and Garalon chest is crit/ hit- I'd like to see if Garalon's chest still beats tier by more than misshapen shoulders beat tier in 5.1 according to stat weights without doing a bunch of math, and some other pieces too).

    Blah, went ahead and did it manually, assuming hit> mastery over 7.5% in 5.1, and reforging accordingly, Garalon chest is actually BiS over Ambershaper shoulders. I know reforging isn't static, but the difference between ambershaper shoulders and tier shoulders w/ haste reforged to crit is negligible.

    Edit edit: according to SimC on SMF BIS on both live and PTR, 10,000 iterations, Mastery> hit over hitcap, so I'll need to re-do some of the things. It didn't end up affecting the tier priority though, I don't think. I'd trust it more if you did this button thing, do haste ---> crit or haste ---> mastery/hit depending on what the piece has on it, preferring hit for simplicity and consistency on how the rest of the sheet is set up.
    Like eso and I were discussing, reforging on the spreadsheet would give a false sense that an item was BiS and when a gear set is made it might cause other items to become worse to compensate that item, this scenario wont happen all the time. the current BiS list that eso made is correct, the garalon chest does not outweigh the shoulders. Simc still has problems (only last week did they fix the raging blow bug) and mastery = hit over cap (as according to Landsoul), hit should be used for sustained fights and mastery for more bursty fights (for SMF).

  19. #79
    Pandaren Monk Freedom's Avatar
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    Ok, I trust you on the tier thing, but I don't get why you couldn't, say, automatically reforge the haste on Lei Shin's or tier chest to something more useful. It'd probably be a lot of work for not much gain, though, as anyone using the spreadsheet hopefully knows the reforge haste to crit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    What parts of personal life were dropped to achieve this "world first"? What sleep patterns were used/abused? Did the raiders eat and drink properly during said "progress"? ... These are important questions that should be addressed before we even start "admiring" that world first.
    Many Multitudes Online Constantly Harping About Minor Problems
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  20. #80
    I get the feeling there is no stat weighting on your side-by-side comparison.

    For example,
    Here we see the side by side of the two debatably BiS warrior dps belts.
    On your spreadsheet we have Patroller's ahead by 288.28
    On this weighted spreadsheet I cut out Patroller's is again ahead, but by 319.96 weighted stats.
    Now we look at the stats on the right of those stats and see that post proper reforge the Warbelt is ahead by 298.44 weighted stats.

    If we look at THIS image:

    We can see that from the excel calculations using your spreadsheet's stat weights, with otherwise full BiS, ignoring haste & expertise as they are equal that Warbelt is 193.6 weighted points higher, while Mr.Robot (seen next to it) has it as 586weighted points higher, as their stat weights differ.

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