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  1. #1
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    Prot Pala Threat + DPS

    What's happing lately, I cannot seem to be able to keep threat off of any other tank, I am constantly Yellow and My DPS is atrocious.

    Yes I know I'm a tank, but compared to other tanks it seems I am behind for some reason? It's frustrating me and makes me want to roll something else non-tank.

  2. #2
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    not having problems myself, at least not with threat, haven't looked at my dps when tanking. Maybe something to do with glyphs, spells you use, rotation, that kind of thing? reforges maybe?

  3. #3
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    I have only been raiding recently with a feral off-tank. They certainly have more TPS than me - Only when they are in DPS gear/Tank Spec - I guess with the way vegence works and because they are in DPS gear they generate insane amounts of threat.

    I can honestly say though I have no problem keeping threat from the rest of the raid member - Maybe this will be more balanced at level 90 ?

  4. #4
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    I've reforged to 5%+ hit and Expertise, so barely any of my attacks are missing, I'm using the Alabastor glyph the Consecration glyph and word of glory glyph (3% increased damage), My Vengeance is not stacking very high, Barely going over 15000.

    I've seen other prot palas doing 20k+ and not having any problems. My damage taken is ok, albeit a bit spikey sometimes.

  5. #5
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    Now that the whole CTC cap has been pretty much abolished - reforge to hit and expertise till 5% (God I hate saying that), sort yourself out with some Golemblood Potions etc.

    What's your rotation? Are you prioritising certain things?

    Are the other Paladin tanks using DPS trinkets/DPS gear?

    Two set T12 etc?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Pridelock View Post
    I have only been raiding recently with a feral off-tank. They certainly have more TPS than me - Only when they are in DPS gear/Tank Spec - I guess with the way vegence works and because they are in DPS gear they generate insane amounts of threat.

    I can honestly say though I have no problem keeping threat from the rest of the raid member - Maybe this will be more balanced at level 90 ?
    The same happens with our Paladin Tank. I have a theory about it but I don't know if it's perfectly true. Both DeathKnights and Druids are classes which' Active Mitigation is mostly done after the hit. Druid regen HP and DK's make a BS after they are hit. Warriors and Paladins use their Active Mitigation to prevent the damage from happening anyway.

    This means Warrior and Paladins get hit for less damage upfront compared to a DK/Bear and that as an effect stacks Vengeance faster on the DK/Bear. This could also account for the higher DPS that those two classes do compared to Paladins.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    The same happens with our Paladin Tank. I have a theory about it but I don't know if it's perfectly true. Both DeathKnights and Druids are classes which' Active Mitigation is mostly done after the hit. Druid regen HP and DK's make a BS after they are hit. Warriors and Paladins use their Active Mitigation to prevent the damage from happening anyway.

    This means Warrior and Paladins get hit for less damage upfront compared to a DK/Bear and that as an effect stacks Vengeance faster on the DK/Bear. This could also account for the higher DPS that those two classes do compared to Paladins.
    Vengence buff is calculated before mitigation/absorbs iirc

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    Vengence buff is calculated before mitigation/absorbs iirc
    Hmm, then it's even more weird. If that is the case Paladins just need a flat out %'age buff to their DPS.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    Hmm, then it's even more weird. If that is the case Paladins just need a flat out %'age buff to their DPS.
    From my experience they really dont

    EDIT: id suggest taking HA talent and using it after you taunt off the other tank if you have problems keeping aggro. also you have hand of salvation (and protection :P ) if you're really struggling. Other then that it's knowing which buttons to press to generate decent threat.
    Last edited by mmocf6305105ff; 2012-09-13 at 01:09 PM.

  10. #10
    My threat is ridiculously high at the moment, the other tank(a DK) actually needs me to quit attacking the boss before he can get the aggro lol

  11. #11
    High Overlord Codyak's Avatar
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    The DPS certainly seems lower than others but the threat is fine. I'll have to pay more attention to vengeance though now that I am seeing others are having issues.

  12. #12
    They just need to go with Vengeance system altogether.

    What concerns threat - whoever pulls, has the mobs. So if your other tank pulls before you - most likely you won't be able to overaggro him, as he will have vengeance, and you won't.

    What concerns DPS with 0 vengeance - 2-hander tanks, DKs and druids, have higher damage output with 0 vengeance than shield-tanks, and DKs and druids have more tools for initial threat.

    So yeah, mechanics' trainwreck, but for as long as it doesn't lead to raid wipes or to cheap exploits, developers won't bother to bring solid system for tanking.

  13. #13
    High Overlord Codyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    What concerns threat - whoever pulls, has the mobs. So if your other tank pulls before you - most likely you won't be able to overaggro him, as he will have vengeance, and you won't.
    I've noticed this to only be partially true. It seems as though if you taunt, you end up "receiving" a copy the other tank's threat. Else, tank swap fights wouldn't really work without some active de-aggro skill. The fight that comes to mind for me is Halfus from BoT with that stacking mortal strike.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Codyak View Post
    I've noticed this to only be partially true. It seems as though if you taunt, you end up "receiving" a copy the other tank's threat. Else, tank swap fights wouldn't really work without some active de-aggro skill. The fight that comes to mind for me is Halfus from BoT with that stacking mortal strike.
    What concerns taunt swaps. If they need to happen early in fight (trash, first switch on boss) - tank without vengeance has trouble to keep boss on him after taunt, so in many cases other tank have to slow down himself to not trespass 110% melee threat threshold with his millions of vengeance, while other tank hits boss with wet noodle. It is a little concern later in long fight, as 110% threshold requires more damage to do to reach it.

    Edit: and Halfus is not good example, when one tank on Halfus, other tank - on drakes, and if drakes are dead, it is already quite long in the fight for 110% threat threshold to be problem.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2012-09-13 at 01:41 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Codyak View Post
    I've noticed this to only be partially true. It seems as though if you taunt, you end up "receiving" a copy the other tank's threat. Else, tank swap fights wouldn't really work without some active de-aggro skill. The fight that comes to mind for me is Halfus from BoT with that stacking mortal strike.
    This is true, but on fights with lots of adds that have to be regulated (Spine comes to mind) if lets say your Amalgamation tank grabs hold of a couple of bloods it's terrorising for your add tank to get them off him.

    And going back to Morchok normal or Warmaster normal/heroic you need to tauntswap the Sunder Armor / Devestates. If your co-tank has 100k AP through vengeance and you taunt it off him with 0 AP he will grab aggro back in a matter of seconds, sometimes even faster than he would be able to change stances/presences/forms. Vengeance is kind of a PitA to manage for your average Joe tanks. Veteran tanks shouldn't have a problem with adapting.
    Last edited by Pickwickman; 2012-09-13 at 01:44 PM.

  16. #16
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    I don't really play my prot paladin that much anymore seeing as im changing to a monk in mists but i did a run of heroic DS the other day because the patch just came out and people wanted to hit things...

    I was far from having any aggro problems... on trash it was even more crazy, the other tank is a warrior and he'd pull slimes.. i'd run in and after about 10s or so i'd pull aggro off most of the stuff he's tanking. Granted i got bored and put on Heroic Eye of the Unmaking after morchok but even without that i still think my dps was high. I was out dps'in a bad mage in our group and i wasn't even reforged properly in hit or exp and i didn't use the proper food/ pots (i had a dps tanking set with perfect expertise and hit for before the patch for rankings).

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraitorian View Post
    What's happing lately, I cannot seem to be able to keep threat off of any other tank, I am constantly Yellow and My DPS is atrocious.

    Yes I know I'm a tank, but compared to other tanks it seems I am behind for some reason? It's frustrating me and makes me want to roll something else non-tank.
    From my experience it depends on what gear your paladin tank has. My Paladin Tank on Server A is in ~393 iLvL gear and I have no issues at all holding threat against people lower or higher geared. My Paladin Tank on Server B ~380 iLvL gets absolutely wrecked on threat when with a DK or Feral lower or higher.

    I haven't tanked much on Beta, but I'm really hoping at 90 it isn't as much of an issue with gear. If so, they'll just buff our damage. I know at one point in beta they nerfed Ret's damage which affected Prot's output as well, but we were ensured it wouldn't make a difference at 90. Only time will tell.

  18. #18
    High Overlord Codyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    What concerns taunt swaps. If they need to happen early in fight (trash, first switch on boss) - tank without vengeance has trouble to keep boss on him after taunt, so in many cases other tank have to slow down himself to not trespass 110% melee threat threshold with his millions of vengeance, while other tank hits boss with wet noodle. It is a little concern later in long fight, as 110% threshold requires more damage to do to reach it.

    Edit: and Halfus is not good example, when one tank on Halfus, other tank - on drakes, and if drakes are dead, it is already quite long in the fight for 110% threat threshold to be problem.
    Depended on what drakes you had, and whether or not you were going to release them all, we've had two tanks on them and you can easily swap back and forth, the example works fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    I don't really play my prot paladin that much anymore seeing as im changing to a monk in mists but i did a run of heroic DS the other day because the patch just came out and people wanted to hit things...

    I was far from having any aggro problems... on trash it was even more crazy, the other tank is a warrior and he'd pull slimes.. i'd run in and after about 10s or so i'd pull aggro off most of the stuff he's tanking. Granted i got bored and put on Heroic Eye of the Unmaking after morchok but even without that i still think my dps was high. I was out dps'in a bad mage in our group and i wasn't even reforged properly in hit or exp and i didn't use the proper food/ pots (i had a dps tanking set with perfect expertise and hit for before the patch for rankings).
    That's true, my example was more for single target, but AoE would still be an issue (especially with Righteous Defense gone )

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Codyak View Post
    Depended on what drakes you had, and whether or not you were going to release them all, we've had two tanks on them and you can easily swap back and forth, the example works fine.
    Yeah, but during tank swaps on boss<->drakes, tanks were also changing their targets, so they weren't nuking same targets as before swap :P

    P.S.: Also on hc you didn't have choice on what to release (I was referring mostly to hc). Some drake/whelps were always up till very-very late in fight.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2012-09-13 at 02:22 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Codyak View Post
    I've noticed this to only be partially true. It seems as though if you taunt, you end up "receiving" a copy the other tank's threat. Else, tank swap fights wouldn't really work without some active de-aggro skill. The fight that comes to mind for me is Halfus from BoT with that stacking mortal strike.
    Maybe a good solution to this problem was if Blizzard were to make the vegance stack copy over as well as the initial threat when a tank taunts - I am not sure of the in and out's of this as potentially you could tank swap with no need to in order to keep a vegence up - However this method will allow for easier tank swapping as they would be on a level footing?

    Thoughts?

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