Poll: Are you enjoying the "Endgame"?

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  1. #281
    Immortal SirRobin's Avatar
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    Well progression is a part of MMORPG's and I'm not sure anyone has made an MMORPG where you don't do something repeatedly. The "thing" seems to be whether it feels like "grinding" to you or not. Grind mobs, grind quests, grind etc, etc, etc... That will vary depending on one's opinion, of course.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrasti View Post
    The whole concept of "end game" I think is ridiculous honestly. Ask yourself, does LoL have end game? Does that question even make sense? No it's absurd.

    End game implies that everything you were doing before was not the real game but just some unnecessary evil needed to overcome before you could play the "real game." I think that's a poor design concept. There shouldn't be anything called end game, but rather a fun experience the whole way through.

    As for GW2, I've been 80 a while now and still enjoying it immensely. I imagine it will be another month or two before I finish playing through all content just once on one character. At that point I can start thinking about redoing some stuff or playing a new character. But for now, there's simply far too much to do.

    I don't really understand why people are chain running the same thing over and over again. Do they just play 16 hours a day every day? Do they just need to latch onto one repetitive activity? I can understand the appeal of mindlessly killing easy mobs over and over for a while (I did enjoy diablo 2 quite a bit afterall), but in this kind of game grinding just seems wholly out of place.
    I don't understand why people claim others just blow through content to max level, and then come complain on forums about it. You can do 100% map completion/all skill points/ max profession/do all explore modes while you go from 1-80. At that point you have seen all the content minus some of the "dynamic" events, you can pvp at level 2 so nothing new there either. Like most people have said a game to hold players over at 80/reason to even redo things, you should not have re-roll alts to be entertained or search for randomized events that you missed.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, LoL isn't an MMO, so eh.
    It's not? You have a strange definition of what an MMO is then.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottsdaleHokie View Post
    It's not? You have a strange definition of what an MMO is then.
    If you think League of Legends is an MMO, then you must also think that Call of Duty, and Halo are shocking successes in the MMO market. I'm not necessarily opposed to that logic, but let's not forget that the actual genre League belongs to is that of the MOBA, not the MMO

    Regardless, he's not the one with a strange definition, as pretty much everyone in on the same page with him, that League is not an MMO
    Last edited by Shadylol; 2012-09-18 at 10:12 PM.
    Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
    Rest In Peace, Star Wars the Old Republic. SWTOR is a fun RPG, but a bad MMO

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottsdaleHokie View Post
    It's not? You have a strange definition of what an MMO is then.
    not really, LoL is a MODotA.
    MO= mulitplayer online multi-player games in which take place in temporary maps that are created at the start of the game and removed at the end.
    MMO= massive multi-player online, games played in perpetual game worlds with large groups of players.

    then theres MMMO(M3O for short)= multiversal massive multi-player online, a perpetual game world in which multiple games take place with large groups of players.
    aka EVE and dust 514.
    Last edited by mordale; 2012-09-18 at 10:36 PM.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottsdaleHokie View Post
    It's not? You have a strange definition of what an MMO is then.
    Wait, what? How is LoL a MMO? No persistent world and a LoL match is hardly massive.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Well progression is a part of MMORPG's and I'm not sure anyone has made an MMORPG where you don't do something repeatedly. The "thing" seems to be whether it feels like "grinding" to you or not. Grind mobs, grind quests, grind etc, etc, etc... That will vary depending on one's opinion, of course.
    The separating factor is whether or not it's mindlessly easy. Raiding is not mindlessly easy, you have to pay attention, preform well, etc., same with PvP. Things like leveling and farming are a grind, because they're easier than walking in circles. No game wants to make the leveling content a skill barrier, because that would be stupid
    Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
    Rest In Peace, Star Wars the Old Republic. SWTOR is a fun RPG, but a bad MMO

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    Well, it's an NC Soft game, that's just how they are. Grinding is a big thing in Asian games. Sure, Arenanet is based in the US, but they're still owned by NC Soft, and we still got a grinding game
    This shit needs to stop. Seriously, like, holy shit.

    The publisher of a game does not dictate the kind of game it is. It can influence the game, but it does not dictate it. If we were to go up the ladder like that, Activision and Blizzard would both be releasing French style games as they're both owned by Vivendi.

    It's a Western MMO developed by a US based studio. Please show me how this game has higher levels of "grinding" than other Western MMO's. WoW, Rift, SWTOR, TSW, EQ2, all these games require grinds in different ways.

    Redit: Better example: Ubisoft is a company based out of France. Does that mean that all the Assassins' Creed, Drive, and Just Dance games are all French now?
    Last edited by Edge-; 2012-09-18 at 10:21 PM.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    This shit needs to stop. Seriously, like, holy shit.

    The publisher of a game does not dictate the kind of game it is. It can influence the game, but it does not dictate it. If we were to go up the ladder like that, Activision and Blizzard would both be releasing French style games as they're both owned by Vivendi.

    It's a Western MMO developed by a US based studio. Please show me how this game has higher levels of "grinding" than other Western MMO's. WoW, Rift, SWTOR, TSW, EQ2, all these games require grinds in different ways.
    Not every Developer and Publisher relationship is exactly the same, especially not when comparing US companies to SOKO companies, but okay

    Guild Wars 2 has more grind than WoW, as the game mostly revolves around running in circles with a group of people, farming "dynamic" (questionable defintion) events, that mostly amount to "kill XYZ, protect XYZ, gather XYZ", which is pretty standard questing. The PvP is heavily focused on unrated content, which again, involved running around in a circle with a group of people, and there is no raid content for progression. WoW has the same questing grind to level up, but it takes about 20 less hours to get to max level in WoW, and there's competitive Raiding, as well as competitive PvP

    Guild Wars 2 has more grind than SWTOR, for most of the same reasons, except that SWTOR lacked any real PvP as well, and SWTOR did break the grind up with it's story, and more focused RPG elements. I haven't played Rift for more than about 10 minutes, nor have I played TSW or EQ2 at all, so I can't speak to those
    Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
    Rest In Peace, Star Wars the Old Republic. SWTOR is a fun RPG, but a bad MMO

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    This shit needs to stop. Seriously, like, holy shit.

    The publisher of a game does not dictate the kind of game it is. It can influence the game, but it does not dictate it. If we were to go up the ladder like that, Activision and Blizzard would both be releasing French style games as they're both owned by Vivendi.

    It's a Western MMO developed by a US based studio. Please show me how this game has higher levels of "grinding" than other Western MMO's. WoW, Rift, SWTOR, TSW, EQ2, all these games require grinds in different ways.
    what?yes it has much more grind in all levels..either for skill up profession or getting a set from a dungeon. The only reason you don't get fast gear in other games is not because of grind but because of "control" content via lockouts and dailies...I can get a full epic gear set in wow from dungeons in a weekend max..if I am lucky I may be only need 5-10 dungeons..if I am not maybe 20 max. In GW2 I need 55+ for a dungeon set. 42k+ karma for just a piece of gear. Not to mention the grind for gold right? In order to make a bag, not only I need to gather the materials needed but also need to pay 10g for a vendor part?? And yes publisher affects a lot a game..EA affect swtor and NCSoft affect GW2.
    The trick of selling a FFA-PvP MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottsdaleHokie View Post
    It's not? You have a strange definition of what an MMO is then.
    League of Legends is MOBA (multiplayer online battle arena). It is not a MMORPG. They are simply different kinds of games. Since GW 2 is so PVP centric, I'm kind of surprised they didn't go the MOBA route with the game.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    Not every Developer and Publisher relationship is exactly the same, especially not when comparing US companies to SOKO companies, but okay

    Guild Wars 2 has more grind than WoW, as the game mostly revolves around running in circles with a group of people, farming "dynamic" (questionable defintion) events, that mostly amount to "kill XYZ, protect XYZ, gather XYZ", which is pretty standard questing. The PvP is heavily focused on unrated content, which again, involved running around in a circle with a group of people, and there is no raid content for progression. WoW has the same questing grind to level up, but it takes about 20 less hours to get to max level in WoW, and there's competitive Raiding, as well as competitive PvP

    Guild Wars 2 has more grind than SWTOR, for most of the same reasons, except that SWTOR lacked any real PvP as well, and SWTOR did break the grind up with it's story, and more focused RPG elements. I haven't played Rift for more than about 10 minutes, nor have I played TSW or EQ2 at all, so I can't speak to those
    to GW2's defense you can't talk about SWtoR's story without mentioning GW2's.
    each choice of race, sub groups(legion for kling- err i mean charrs, socioeconomic standing for humans) and, back story(never found your sister's corpse, lost a family relic in a drinking bet) helps shape your character's private story.
    later on its your choice of which order do you use and then join, then back to which order's plan do you go with.
    its good but i wish they would of gotten rid of the hearts and just made minor story-lines for each area.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by maldias View Post
    to GW2's defense you can't talk about SWtoR's story without mentioning GW2's.
    each choice of race, sub groups(legion for kling- err i mean charrs, socioeconomic standing for humans) and, back story(never found your sister's corpse, lost a family relic in a drinking bet) helps shape your character's private story.
    later on its your choice of which order do you use and then join, then back to which order's plan do you go with.
    its good but i wish they would of gotten rid of the hearts and just made minor story-lines for each area.
    I would've mentioned Guild Wars 2's story, if I was still like level 30. The problem with that, for me, is that the last like 20 levels are just all about that green guy cleansing Orr, while the choices you made were all sorted out fairly early on. I also have to say that SWTOR's story was a lot more in depth, and it had the whole Light Side/Dark Side thing going for it, as well as quality voice acting
    Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
    Rest In Peace, Star Wars the Old Republic. SWTOR is a fun RPG, but a bad MMO

  14. #294
    No to PVE because of the poor combat system. Can't even finish levelling my character as it takes 2 key presses to kill mobs. One to charge, one to autoswing. You usually only ever fight one mob a at a time too. Way too much DE zerging. BORING!

    No to PVP because of the poor combat system and WvWvW zerg. BORING!

    The lack of a decent dps rotation or abilities that proc has made the combat mind numbing. WoW and SWTOR both have much better combat a mechanics and they are more enjoyable for it. GW2 has some interesting ideas, it was just not implemented well.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    I would've mentioned Guild Wars 2's story, if I was still like level 30. The problem with that, for me, is that the last like 20 levels are just all about that green guy cleansing Orr, while the choices you made were all sorted out fairly early on. I also have to say that SWTOR's story was a lot more in depth, and it had the whole Light Side/Dark Side thing going for it, as well as quality voice acting
    yeah, having everything being voiced has led to "but the will of a templar is stronger" vibe from the NPCs.

    sometimes its good but when its literally the same line being repeated it starts to feel like I've entered some ring of hell dante left out because he was too afraid to go near it much less enter.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 10:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jalek View Post
    No to PVE because of the poor combat system. Can't even finish levelling my character as it takes 2 key presses to kill mobs. One to charge, one to autoswing. You usually only ever fight one mob a at a time too. Way too much DE zerging. BORING!

    No to PVP because of the poor combat system and WvWvW zerg. BORING!

    The lack of a decent dps rotation or abilities that proc has made the combat mind numbing. WoW and SWTOR both have much better combat a mechanics and they are more enjoyable for it. GW2 has some interesting ideas, it was just not implemented well.
    i can see why they made your DPS largely automated to allow you more focus on other things like aiding others and reacting to boss attacks, its just that there are few bosses with more then a couple spells.
    Last edited by mordale; 2012-09-18 at 10:48 PM.

  16. #296
    Immortal SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    The separating factor is whether or not it's mindlessly easy. Raiding is not mindlessly easy, you have to pay attention, preform well, etc., same with PvP. Things like leveling and farming are a grind, because they're easier than walking in circles. No game wants to make the leveling content a skill barrier, because that would be stupid
    Here we go with your assumptions again. Trying to pump up raiding and downplay leveling? Both are part of progression and both can be hard or easy depending on their design. Just as either can be boring if they are not entertaining enough.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, LoL isn't an MMO, so eh.

    The idea of "endgame", much like the term "raiding" really isnt well-defined. I generally define the term "endgame" to mean something like, "The point at which you're done with leveling and move onto alternate character advancement paths." or "The point in the game at which the players are assumed to be proficient enough at the game that they can have a new level of challenge thrown at them." but those are not really GREAT definitions, either.
    LoL isn't an MMO, but it is a game. If you want a more level based one, consider a Final Fantasy. The point is, you have a game which you play and that's the game. There isn't a whole bunch of crap you have to get through to reach the real game (unless of course you're talking about Blitzball). That is what I'm saying, intentionally disregarding everything you're doing until you reach "end game" is a retarded concept. If that stuff is worthless, simply remove it.

    I could see that argument being made if you're interested in PvP. But in my opinion, GW1 and GW2 responded perfectly in how they opened up PvP. If you feel everything pre "end game" is worthless in PvE, well you missed the point because well, that was the game =)

    The only valid critique I see is lack of "challenge." Challenge disappears when you are allowed to zerg things away in the open world and I have yet to encounter a truly challenging dungeon. That is valid and I would like to see more challenging content. However it is somewhat amusing to see people immediately complain that an encounter is bugged when its simply that they're doing it wrong. If it's too trivial its not challenging enough, if it's not trivial it's obviously bugged. Gamers are strange these days =)

  18. #298
    LoL isn't an MMO, but it is a game. If you want a more level based one, consider a Final Fantasy. The point is, you have a game which you play and that's the game. There isn't a whole bunch of crap you have to get through to reach the real game (unless of course you're talking about Blitzball). That is what I'm saying, intentionally disregarding everything you're doing until you reach "end game" is a retarded concept. If that stuff is worthless, simply remove it.
    Well, the "leveling" process is meant to be both a teaching tool and a method providing measurable progress. The only problem is when that part of the game is done poorly- not learning anything at all &/or having no sense of progress.

    Games such as LOL actually use the leveling process to great effect. League would be exemplary as a game which uses various progress markers; rank, levels, elo, etc. In fact, Riot is adding MORE endgame to League soon.

    I understand what you are driving at, but the examples of design used are not really getting you there.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Here we go with your assumptions again. Trying to pump up raiding and downplay leveling? Both are part of progression and both can be hard or easy depending on their design. Just as either can be boring if they are not entertaining enough.
    If you read what I typed, you'll see that I explain why games make leveling easy

    And I'm not making any assumptions here, I've leveled 1-80 in Guild Wars 2, I'm well aware of what it is
    Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
    Rest In Peace, Star Wars the Old Republic. SWTOR is a fun RPG, but a bad MMO

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    what?yes it has much more grind in all levels..either for skill up profession or getting a set from a dungeon. The only reason you don't get fast gear in other games is not because of grind but because of "control" content via lockouts and dailies...I can get a full epic gear set in wow from dungeons in a weekend max..if I am lucky I may be only need 5-10 dungeons..if I am not maybe 20 max. In GW2 I need 55+ for a dungeon set. 42k+ karma for just a piece of gear. Not to mention the grind for gold right? In order to make a bag, not only I need to gather the materials needed but also need to pay 10g for a vendor part?? And yes publisher affects a lot a game..EA affect swtor and NCSoft affect GW2.
    Except you are comparing starting dungeon gear from WoW (the thing you say you can get in 5-10 runs if you are lucky) with a top tier gear from GW2. Why you wont compare time needed to get entire tier X in WoW raid (preferably heroic version)? And why you wont add that after half year that tier will become useless? Well maybe useful for transmog if you like the skin. Once you get that exotic set in GW2 you will NEVER get an item with better stats. Unless Arena will decide to break their gear philosophy which lasted entire GW1 and is still working in GW2. And that exotic gear is not that hard to get either. If I would want, I could buy full exotic armor set the day I dinged 80. I had enough gold for that (I still dont understand why people say gold is hard to get, I had 15g when I dinged 80 and I never played AH or traded gems, just standard salvage/sell loot to vendor or AH).

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