View Poll Results: Are you enjoying the "Endgame"?

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  • Yes

    474 47.12%
  • No

    532 52.88%
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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Definitely the crux of the issue. How many people find endgame in ANY game fun anymore?
    Think it depends on who that game is appealing to. There has been some industry talk on podcasts and articles speculating that new MMOs are becoming more specialized in the audience they seek out as a base. Instead of trying to be a theme park in the World of Warcraft model.

    Idea being that MMOs can survive and thrive with much smaller player bases these days and less traditional business models.

    To some degree this is true now with story, raid focus, PVP focused, et cetera MMOs currently in the marketplace. By next year it seems we'll be seeing even more MMOs that are purposefully going for a niche audience.

    With that in mind, I'd say the people for whom Secret World or Rift appeal to are quite happy with the endgame those games offer. Those are just 2 games I am personally familiar with and actively participate in for the sake example. Yet they might be two of the most satisfied player bases I have seen recently.

    Whereas SWTOR [WoW theme park approach] was one of the most unpleasant, dissatisfied and angered player bases I experienced. It's still that way in TOR- I logged in last week...

    So I don't think the "endgame" of games such as EQ/WoW is fading anytime soon. But do feel we are seeing a lot more variety & in turn satisfaction in what/where differing endgames are offered to player satisfaction.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-09-20 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #422
    Only reason to make a game MMO is to have people sort of create content by playing with other people. GW2 has the pvp but no raids so you miss huge amount of "content" that ppl would create to other people in form of raids. Couldn't anet just do both raids and pvp where players make players more interested in the game.

    I don't see any point of mmos where theres not active doing shit with ppl, I could just play a games where u only pvp and a singleplayer rpg which is more interesting than the solo things u can do in gw2. MMOS need player created content and people playing for other people.
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  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    That replayability though, why is it so? One LoL match, to me, doesn't feel exceedingly different from another, just because it's different humans using different champions. You're on the same map. The same lanes. The exact same things happen again and again... ganking, minion farming, jungling, team fights, pushing and defending and warding.

    The differences between any one LoL match are much the same as the differences between different dynamic events in different parts of the map using different enemies.
    I think you're grasping at straws to defend Guild Wars 2, here

    I hate League of Legends. I got to be really good at it, played on a team, etc., but ultimately got way too mad at how horribly imbalanced the heroes are, and instead of balancing the current heroes, they just release a new one every 2 weeks, so I quit playing it

    That said, you cannot (simply cannot) say that one match of League doesn't "feel exeedingly different from another". There's a lot of variables in that game, and you can easily play it all night, without having two similar matches. I get that you like GW2, but try not to make inaccurate statements about other games in the process of hyping it up. Again, this is coming from someone that hates League
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  4. #424
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    That said, you cannot (simply cannot) say that one match of League doesn't "feel exeedingly different from another". There's a lot of variables in that game, and you can easily play it all night, without having two similar matches.
    Stating subjective feelings as fact again, are you?
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  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Stating subjective feelings as fact again, are you?
    It's not a subjective feeling

    Have you played League of Legends at a competitive level? I don't think you have. I don't expect you to get 4 friends and play it all day, either, but you could educate yourself just by watching some pro gameplay of it. The game is simply not a grossly similar experience one match to the next

    More to the point, Guild Wars 2 doesn't offer much difference in it's content. The most varied experience in the game is the "dynamic" events, but these are almost always "kill XYZ", "protect XYZ", or "collect XYZ", just like standard quests in any other MMO. That doesn't make Guild Wars 2 a bad game or anything, but you can't really compare that to a game with far more variables, and act like it's giving you more different approaches to gameplay
    Last edited by Shadylol; 2012-09-20 at 03:25 AM.
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  6. #426
    Sad to admit I'm kinda bored already with endgame. No biggie seeing as I got my 60$ worth and this game is miles ahead of D3 in comparison even though they cost the same. The cosmetic grind is a total turnoff to me and I don't have the time for that shit anymore. Especially when the slot machine's luck is needed with crafting a legendary. Which IMO is retarded. This week WVW is dominated by one server to the point where the other servers don't even have keeps. Now that I think about it I'm not having fun at all.

  7. #427
    I love gw2 but honestly I have to say, WvWvW is SO BAD...its so bad. Im not a pvper so its not a big deal im just trying to get my 50 kills for my monthly achieve and its just torture. Pure zerg v zerg, looooong horrible runs from teleporters, my god do I wish this wsg or ab right now

    12 more kills to go and ill be free for a month, can't wait!

  8. #428
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoneseek View Post
    I love gw2 but honestly I have to say, WvWvW is SO BAD...its so bad. Im not a pvper so its not a big deal im just trying to get my 50 kills for my monthly achieve and its just torture. Pure zerg v zerg, looooong horrible runs from teleporters, my god do I wish this wsg or ab right now

    12 more kills to go and ill be free for a month, can't wait!
    Hopefully they switch to 2-week battles soon, with people putting up waypoints everywhere. Or else Arena Net finds a way to lessen how much running you have to do (maybe boost out-of-combat speed?)

    I refuse to touch WvW until they switch to the longer battles, but I'd personally rather avoid the zergs and find some small skirmishes to participate in at smaller objectives.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Hopefully they switch to 2-week battles soon, with people putting up waypoints everywhere. Or else Arena Net finds a way to lessen how much running you have to do (maybe boost out-of-combat speed?)

    I refuse to touch WvW until they switch to the longer battles, but I'd personally rather avoid the zergs and find some small skirmishes to participate in at smaller objectives.
    I agree

    As it is now, it's pretty pointless to break off from the main group, because if you move out with a group of 5-10 people, and end up running into an enemy group of 30+ people, that's a no-win situation. Most people aren't dumb, so basically everyone just ends up in one or two massive groups running around in circles, and the combat is mostly a clusterfuck

    WvWvW is one thing I'm willing to give NCSoft some extra time on, though. It's not a common feature, so as a cost of innovation, there's naturally going to be some stuff they have to work out over time
    Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
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  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Asseymcgee View Post
    Source please?

    I remember them stating that it will take hard work to get the nice skins, never nothing about grinding. That was against their "philosophy".

    And hard work does not = mind numbing grind.

    Btw, your sig is fucking awesome lol.
    Hard work is what I should have used, so bad choice of words on my part. As for their philosophy I've only been able to find stuff that points more towards "no forced grind" rather than no grind whatsoever, which is true as the dungeon gear/T3 cultural gear isn't absolutely necessary and the karma greens from Orr can be earned in ~3 level 80 DEs for one piece with gold participation. I can't speak for the 42k karma exotics as I haven't taken much of a look at them (only have 1 piece and I've been farming for gold so I haven't been caring much about my gear).

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    I agree

    As it is now, it's pretty pointless to break off from the main group, because if you move out with a group of 5-10 people, and end up running into an enemy group of 30+ people, that's a no-win situation. Most people aren't dumb, so basically everyone just ends up in one or two massive groups running around in circles, and the combat is mostly a clusterfuck

    WvWvW is one thing I'm willing to give NCSoft some extra time on, though. It's not a common feature, so as a cost of innovation, there's naturally going to be some stuff they have to work out over time
    This is a different kind of PvP but one that does have its own merits. Yes it is zergy, it will work like that. The metagame is moved from solo or small engagements (common to battlegrounds in WoW and similar, which you also have in GW2 btw in sPvP) to overall strategic planning. As an individual you are just a pawn and everything depends from people who will lead that zerg of pawns into battle. This requires some sort of leadership and people who will be followed by others. But it works and I have seen examples in my current weekly match. Good planning can bring results. You will not steamroll everything but you will gain a map advantage if your squad commanders know what the hell they are doing. I know a similar type of PvP from EvE Online where warring power blocks deploy fleets with hundreds of players. And all that those players do is mechanically following orders of a fleet commander. Some people hate this kind of PvP and call it blobfests. But some people still see some merits in it. It is where sense of unity and cooperation overshadows personal skill or gear epeen.

    As for long corpse runs and repair costs. Honestly, I die very rarely. Perhaps once every 30 minutes while I am active in WvWvW, sometimes even less when we are on the steamroll rampage. You just need to always be aware of your surroundings and position yourself so that you always have a way to retreat. I also very often open a map to try and anticipate when and from where an enemy zerg may come from. If you feel vulnerable just GTFO. Honestly I very often see enemy players going down in a very stupid way. Like the entire enemy zerg is charging at them and they just stand there trying to shoot or start to run when they are already swarmed. Honestly, if such people will complain that they die often then all I can say is "learn to play WvWvW", sorry for that. I may agree however that perhaps WvWvW might be a bit harder for melee. I dont play a melee atm so I dont know. But then again, every profession in GW2 has access to ranged options.

  12. #432
    If they don't fix diminishing returns then its a no. sPvP is fine. In my opinion, WvW should not have repair costs for fighting other players. Mobs yes, players no. Other than that WvW is fine as is. PvE needs serious work.

  13. #433
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Hopefully they switch to 2-week battles soon, with people putting up waypoints everywhere. Or else Arena Net finds a way to lessen how much running you have to do (maybe boost out-of-combat speed?)
    Unless I've been misinformed (which I very well might be), they'll have 1-week battles as a betwixt before moving on to 2-week sessions.

  14. #434
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    It's unfortunate that so many players in all mmos today are so focused on racing to max level asap. They miss a lot of the game. With GW2 especially it's the journey...not the destination.
    There is nothing to miss. I don't need to stand ad every spot for 5 minutes and take in the scenery. I can do that very well while walking to my destination. I pretty much race to max level, because I hate the leveling process and want to get it over with. It's a useless "fill the bar 80 times lol" thing that, especially in a game like GW2, is totally unnecessary. Once I'm 80 then I can take it slow. Though to be honest, with the almost nonexistent story in GW2 there really isn't much to miss. A heart NPC usually has 2 sentences to say to you, which mostly just explain what you have to do and don't really tell a story. Yeah NPC I get it: Centaurs - bad. Svanir-bad. Nightmare Court - bad. Undead - SUPERBAD.

    The story in GW2 is as dull as they come. "Woo dragons awoke, aah the entire world is filled with mad dragon worshipping cultists omg omg". (Kinda reminds me of WoW Cataclysm, that story was equally bland).

    Lets see how I leveled: I went into a zone, did all the hearts, did almost every event that presented itself, gathered, tried to level the crafting skill as close to my level as I could, collected all the vistas (some are quite nice) and PoIs, teleporter nodes and moved on to the next zone. Rinse repeat woo I'm 80. Please do tell, how is that "rushing to 80" in any way?

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  15. #435
    Herald of the Titans Ravenblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    There is nothing to miss. I don't need to stand ad every spot for 5 minutes and take in the scenery. I can do that very well while walking to my destination. I pretty much race to max level, because I hate the leveling process and want to get it over with. It's a useless "fill the bar 80 times lol" thing that, especially in a game like GW2, is totally unnecessary. Once I'm 80 then I can take it slow. Though to be honest, with the almost nonexistent story in GW2 there really isn't much to miss. A heart NPC usually has 2 sentences to say to you, which mostly just explain what you have to do and don't really tell a story. Yeah NPC I get it: Centaurs - bad. Svanir-bad. Nightmare Court - bad. Undead - SUPERBAD.

    The story in GW2 is as dull as they come. "Woo dragons awoke, aah the entire world is filled with mad dragon worshipping cultists omg omg". (Kinda reminds me of WoW Cataclysm, that story was equally bland).
    That does sound a tad that you do not like the RPG aspect in a MMORPG besides in GW2 the levelling does not end at maximum level you still earn XP and skillpts. in addition there are many side quests and tiny things and hints in dialogues giving directions to a location often overlooked. I am also sometimes surprised how often people quit right after the first step of a quest chain except for the popular ones.

    Lets see how I leveled: I went into a zone, did all the hearts, did almost every event that presented itself, gathered, tried to level the crafting skill as close to my level as I could, collected all the vistas (some are quite nice) and PoIs, teleporter nodes and moved on to the next zone. Rinse repeat woo I'm 80. Please do tell, how is that "rushing to 80" in any way?
    Well, with a bias against levelling as a whole you are not going to find any approach pleasing. The best it will do is probably not moaning too much about it.
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  16. #436
    The Patient Lannden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I agree with this quite a lot.

    The concepts of the dungeons is pretty neat, some are fun. But for us [my guild] the dungeons are pretty low on the game's feature list. A lot of them are boring or sorta gimmicky/random. The fact we still encounter massive bugs and disconnects only makes the dungeons less desirable.

    All during the betas, the game performed flawlessly. First couple of weeks- massive bugs with entering/leaving, grouping, bugged encounters, unending DEs, invisible walls, mobs firing through floors/walls, etc. We couldn't reliably get all 5 players in the guild groups zoned into the same dungeon.

    The problems still persist too. We spent about 30 mins waiting for a friend to zone into CM the other day. Having to break party several times, re-zone and so on.

    Couple of nights ago we tried CoE. I DC'd midway. Reconnect... I am in a new dungeon and can not rejoin my party. Not okay as we near almost a month of the game.

    Most of my guild mates [myself included] are dedicated progression raiders going as far back as Scars of Velious. Many GW1 vets that broke content like DOA/UW and Urgoz too. We get like 3 "Ehhh. I'll run it." replies to dungeon calls if we are lucky.

    As it stands now, dungeons are seen as mostly a poor return for time invested, dull and sloppily designed by a lot of our guildies. Whom I would say are very much skewed toward the hardcore/nolife raid & dungeon gridner stereotypes.

    There isn't a lot of incentive to do dungeons in my POV unless I really desired those armor sets. Which I personally do not [too ugly for me]. The karma sets look nicer.
    This post basically sums up my biggest problem. No one in my guild wants to do dungeons, most of them being raiders from many games. They say they are boring and not worth the time investment. Yes the bosses can kill you and you die a lot, but its not because they have interesting and challenging mechanics, but because they hit hard and have a lot of HP. Yes there are a few that are really fun and interesting but I guess not enough to make it worth it for my guild.

    When I actually get a guild group about half the time we cannot agree on which dungeon to run. Bob wants the weapon from here but Sue wants the armor set from there, and Larry wants to do this dungeon because it is faster. This usually results in arguing for an hour and disbanding because no one agrees and or wants to run more than one.

    I tried pugging them but many groups want ranged only. I don't like playing ranged not to mention Guardian has the most boring ranged options in the game. I would try to explain to them that I had done almost every dungeon in the game without being 100% ranged but just got written off. I even joined a guild that did dungeons often but found out they wanted ranged and grudgingly took melee if they could not find a 5th member.

    So for PvE I was left with running DE's and 100%ing my map. Both are very repetitive. The DE's are basically all the same to me and became grindy around level 40 for me. Orr might be different but its just 1 big zerg and I don't care enough about karma gear to join, what is to me, a mindless grind. Some people love it and that's great for them, but its not for me.

    I don't care about MMORPG PVP, I never have and probably never will. I have tried both WvW and spvp and just was bored. If I want MMOPVP I will play Planetside 2, if I don't need the MMO part there are so many other games and genres that are more fun and a lot more balanced. For people who like MMORPG PvP it seems perfect though.

    So no, I'm not having fun with endgame. I kind of had a feeling it would be this way and had many post on this forum about this topic. I'm kind of sad since I just want a fun, challenging, and rewarding (not in the gear way) group PvE content. I was really hopping this game would be it and maybe after some tweaking it will be, but for now its not. I really hope a game will come out with this, I'm tired of the WoW model and couldn't return if I wanted to, (most of my friends no longer play WoW and I no longer trust blizz as a company) its time for PvE endgame to evolve. I have no idea if this mythical MMO will ever appear or what the, for lack of a better word, endgame will look like but I'm holding my breath for now. Maybe I will check out FFXIV REBORN, I have heard good things about it and I loved FFXI.

    On the not "endgame" side though, I am having A LOT of fun playing low levels with my girlfriend. This is the first MMO she has had interest in and plays very casually. Its a lot of fun popping on with her and just playing around once or twice a week. I don't think the game is bad, hell it is great and worth the $60. It is just not what I'm looking for in a main MMO, and that is okay.
    Last edited by Lannden; 2012-09-20 at 09:36 AM.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    There is nothing to miss. I don't need to stand ad every spot for 5 minutes and take in the scenery. I can do that very well while walking to my destination. I pretty much race to max level, because I hate the leveling process and want to get it over with. It's a useless "fill the bar 80 times lol" thing that, especially in a game like GW2, is totally unnecessary. Once I'm 80 then I can take it slow. Though to be honest, with the almost nonexistent story in GW2 there really isn't much to miss. A heart NPC usually has 2 sentences to say to you, which mostly just explain what you have to do and don't really tell a story. Yeah NPC I get it: Centaurs - bad. Svanir-bad. Nightmare Court - bad. Undead - SUPERBAD.

    The story in GW2 is as dull as they come. "Woo dragons awoke, aah the entire world is filled with mad dragon worshipping cultists omg omg". (Kinda reminds me of WoW Cataclysm, that story was equally bland).

    Lets see how I leveled: I went into a zone, did all the hearts, did almost every event that presented itself, gathered, tried to level the crafting skill as close to my level as I could, collected all the vistas (some are quite nice) and PoIs, teleporter nodes and moved on to the next zone. Rinse repeat woo I'm 80. Please do tell, how is that "rushing to 80" in any way?
    I agree with you 100%. Leveling has always been "fill the bar XYZ times lol" to me as well, and you're absolutely right about the state of Guild Wars 2's story as well

    I leveled up almost the same way as you, except I bounced between two zones at a time sometimes, and I didn't bother with crafting for very long. This wasn't done in a hurry at all, not even a "fast pace", I took it at a medium pace, and it only took 69 hours to go from 1-80. But now apparently, everyone who's level 80 "rushed", and "skipped" and "missed everything"

    Fans of SWTOR said the exact same thing, and it was infuriating, though at least with that game, there were arguments to be made for taking a little longer to level up because of the story. In Guild Wars 2, there's nothing to see along the way that would slow you down. Nothing

    To me, it seems like just another case of the players blaming other players, instead of holding the developer responsible. "Hey, I think this game lacks endgame content" "NO U RUSHED 2 80"
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  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Definitely the crux of the issue. How many people find endgame in ANY game fun anymore?
    A lot of people for sure, else there would not be the millions of people still playing games such as WoW, Aion, EQ/EQ2 and so on, those games all have a wide variety of end game things to do, many carrots to chase, always some way you can improve yourself, competative ladders for both pve and pvp. In GW2 there just is hardly any reason to keep doing stuff at max level since it just does not matter, my character will be the same as the next guy who pretty much just recently dinged. You never feel your character really grow any more powerful, in any way, not even the graphics on your spells become more flashy and such, just the armor look more or less.

  19. #439
    Herald of the Titans Ravenblade's Avatar
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    Maybe the endgame PVE part is not right there yet. Consider this a new approach really. No new idea or approach is ever perfect from the get-go even adopted and established paradigms can be flawed by implementation first because every idea, old or new, works out differently in every game's context. I'd probably be unhappy if all I did was PVE only but I am not so my endgame is broader and less stringent.

    Some people do rush though but others seem to really skip things in the meaning of not really caring for or getting distracted by the details because all they want to be is being maximum level while not caring for PVP. I think maybe if GW2 had a PVE equivalent to sPVP it would offer some unique way of enjoying things more. I am not talking about yet another horde adaptation, or tower defense adaptation but some sort of strategical conquest of areas - like a RTS just from a FPS perspective or some dungeon crawler adaptation.
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  20. #440
    Yes it's always a good time to catch up on old achievements

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