View Poll Results: Are you enjoying the "Endgame"?

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  • Yes

    474 47.12%
  • No

    532 52.88%
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  1. #721
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    In the end it just takes time to get gold to get item(s) & upgrades. Does it matter if I am paying 100g to Paris Pilton in Shattrah [sp? whatever] or the Black Lion NPC?
    It takes time in games like WoW, in GW2 it takes either time or a credit card.

  2. #722
    Stood in the Fire Arkkitehti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    It takes time in games like WoW, in GW2 it takes either time or a credit card.
    But they have to monetize in some way. Unless you are suggesting that they shouldn't allow people to get those things with using time, only with money, (akin to WoW's cash shop) then wouldn't the situation be much worse for the consumer?

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    GW2 has things that affect the way of your in game life, so to speak.
    The only thing I can think that fits this claim is the karma booster. And I do agree that Karma grind is somewhat required and repulsive. It may have been in another thread where I said this though. All blurs together.

    But really, what advantage is one to gain otherwise? They don't sell anything else that has an impact on other player's enjoyment. Just your own convenience- which is as it should be. No sub and all that.

    There is no power or player advantage to be bought. Just time to do this or that menial task.

  4. #724
    Dreadlord Widow Maker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkkitehti View Post
    But they have to monetize in some way. Unless you are suggesting that they shouldn't allow people to get those things with using time, only with money, (akin to WoW's cash shop) then wouldn't the situation be much worse for the consumer?
    I would honestly prefer them going over to a P2P model. A small fee, something like 5 bucks a month. Would bring in a decent amount of money for them to be able to keep things running and push out good content without the cash shop being their main income of money after players have purchased the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The only thing I can think that fits this claim is the karma booster. And I do agree that Karma grind is somewhat required and repulsive. It may have been in another thread where I said this though. All blurs together.

    But really, what advantage is one to gain otherwise? They don't sell anything else that has an impact on other player's enjoyment. Just your own convenience- which is as it should be. No sub and all that.

    There is no power or player advantage to be bought. Just time to do this or that menial task.
    There is nothing that makes players better than you while playing the game, but there are things in the cash shop that makes it easier for others to play. The boosters, buying gold etc.

  5. #725
    What endgame?

    No seriously, what endgame?

  6. #726
    They likely make a lot more money via cash shop than charging everyone $5 a month. Almost certain they do. The publisher I worked for at one point had users who would spend up to 10x the cost of a sub in a given month. To say nothing of spike sales and new customers who put down their first $50-100 daily.

    There were some customers who basically bought the equivalent of a small car [$10-15k] over 8 months in the cash shop. They were easily the worth of a few hundred sub paying customers.

    Cash shops make loads of cash over sub fees.

    Speaking personally, I spent way more in cash shops than in many multi-year subs I paid. And I know for a fact those companies viewed me more valuable than the sub based game companies did. Because it was my job for a while too.


    /off-topic but somewhat relevant to the supposed reqs/structure of GW2 "endgame". If GW2 had an actual endgame, which it doesn't.

  7. #727
    Dreadlord Widow Maker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    They likely make a lot more money via cash shop than charging everyone $5 a month. Almost certain they do. The publisher I worked for at one point had users who would spend up to 10x the cost of a sub in a given month. To say nothing of spike sales and new customers who put down their first $50-100 daily.

    There were some customers who basically bought the equivalent of a small car [$10-15k] over 8 months in the cash shop. They were easily the worth of a few hundred sub paying customers.

    Cash shops make loads of cash over sub fees.

    Speaking personally, I spent way more in cash shops than in many multi-year subs I paid. And I know for a fact those companies viewed me more valuable than the sub based game companies did. Because it was my job for a while too.


    /off-topic but somewhat relevant to the supposed reqs/structure of GW2 "endgame". If GW2 had an actual endgame, which it doesn't.
    I'm not saying to completely eliminate the cash shop. Take down some of the things that give an economic advantage or ease of gameplay for players and ONLY keep cosmetics, account essentials (bank/character slots), maybe the trans stones etc. And add a monthly fee so they aren't completely reliant on the cash shop as an income which would most likely solve a couple of problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blimey View Post
    What endgame?

    No seriously, what endgame?
    Didn't you hear? Endgame starts at lvl 1, you explore, jump puzzles and play for shits and gigs after 80!
    Last edited by Widow Maker; 2012-10-07 at 08:37 PM.

  8. #728
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The only thing I can think that fits this claim is the karma booster. And I do agree that Karma grind is somewhat required and repulsive. It may have been in another thread where I said this though. All blurs together.

    But really, what advantage is one to gain otherwise? They don't sell anything else that has an impact on other player's enjoyment. Just your own convenience- which is as it should be. No sub and all that.

    There is no power or player advantage to be bought. Just time to do this or that menial task.
    I was meaning character slots, bag slots, bank slots (30 slot is terribly tiny). Such things that are something that should be in game but are then forced upon you by real money purchases.
    By the way, all those unlock for 8 character slots / full bank slots = $82.50.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    They likely make a lot more money via cash shop than charging everyone $5 a month. Almost certain they do. The publisher I worked for at one point had users who would spend up to 10x the cost of a sub in a given month. To say nothing of spike sales and new customers who put down their first $50-100 daily.

    There were some customers who basically bought the equivalent of a small car [$10-15k] over 8 months in the cash shop. They were easily the worth of a few hundred sub paying customers.

    Cash shops make loads of cash over sub fees.

    Speaking personally, I spent way more in cash shops than in many multi-year subs I paid. And I know for a fact those companies viewed me more valuable than the sub based game companies did. Because it was my job for a while too.


    /off-topic but somewhat relevant to the supposed reqs/structure of GW2 "endgame". If GW2 had an actual endgame, which it doesn't.
    And doesn't this make subscription based games sound better and better.

  10. #730
    Bloodsail Admiral Ms Andry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    And doesn't this make subscription based games sound better and better.
    no it does not. at all. If you wanna keep throwing your money at a game every month go ahead, but this kind of blind spending is just terrible.
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  11. #731
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    I was meaning character slots, bag slots, bank slots (30 slot is terribly tiny). Such things that are something that should be in game but are then forced upon you by real money purchases.
    By the way, all those unlock for 8 character slots / full bank slots = $82.50.
    Maybe you missed the part where you can purchase those items with IN GAME GOLD!

    So far I've spent -0- RL $ on the game and purchased 3 extra bank tabs, 2 extra bag slots, 1 additional character slot plus a number of vanity items with in-game gold. I'm loving it
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  12. #732
    Mechagnome Hjalmtyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    And doesn't this make subscription based games sound better and better.
    No. The difference is the option.

    What I disliked about WoW's business model was the 'premium.' kind of stuff. It had a sub fee AND a cash shop. That was kind of irritating and the only time it didn't bug me was when there was the Japan Tsunami relief fund pet.

    I'm paying to play the game, yet people who pay for mounts inside the game get something people can't get without spending more money? That right there is stupidity.

    I'm already paying so I should be equal to everyone else, right? No. Because people throw even more money at the game and get more stuff than I can actually get. That's denial of content and it's wrong because it means that development money that I am paying for (Don't forget that in subscription MMOs, you are paying for the development of new content) is being withdrew from my grasp unless I pay even more money.

    Now in GW2 the payment is optional. That's good, I'm not paying for constant release of content. Bought it once, not paying more unless I want to unlock that content that's out of my reach. The people buying gems are paying for the cash shop development, so they're the ones who can access it.

    That's a fair business model. WoW doesn't have a fair business model which, as someone who likes to collect pets and mounts and isn't a massive fan of throwing £18 at a mount that's just +1 to my achievement on top of the, what? £115 I paid a year just to play the game? Dick move that I'm restricted from content I'm paying for.

    So no, subscription based games aren't better and I'd go as far as saying they have no place in today's market, ESPECIALLY not with premium+ models. The modern day is about choosing what you want to do. It's about optional access. There are so many good free games that subscription based games are just dying out. They're nowhere near as prominent anymore and using a sub fee is actually a gamble in today's market due to the popularity of WoW. Who wants to spend money on months of another game and risk being in an underpopulated or crap game when you have a stable game like WoW sitting there? Not many people do. GW2? Fuck it why not, spend £50, is it any good? Yeah but I wouldn't pay a sub fee for it. Good - Money hasn't been wasted, you've permanently got a game you can go on for 2 hours a week without wasting money.

    Just to add to this: B2P and F2P models attract customers you would not have otherwise had. HoN was B2P, I didn't buy it. Tried it when it went F2P, not a massive fan but I bet there are people who spent money on it. TF2 was B2P. I didn't buy it. Went F2P, thought 'Fuck it, why not?' Spent about £100 on it. If GW2 was sub based I would not have bought it. Instead, I did. They have £50 of mine now and I've got about 130 hours out of it so far. Fair trade.
    Last edited by Hjalmtyr; 2012-10-07 at 10:36 PM.
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  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    And doesn't this make subscription based games sound better and better.
    Nope, I've spent hundreds of dollars in subscription and 0 in cash shops, works both ways.

  14. #734
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Maybe you missed the part where you can purchase those items with IN GAME GOLD!

    So far I've spent -0- RL $ on the game and purchased 3 extra bank tabs, 2 extra bag slots, 1 additional character slot plus a number of vanity items with in-game gold. I'm loving it
    To quote myself.
    There's a significant difference.
    Remember, someone has to buy the gems.
    Then someone has to sell the gems.
    If no one buys gems, then no one will be able to get the gems via gold. Thus no one will be getting any bank / bag slot / character expansions.
    The listed example (except Rift I don't remember much about it), are bought through in game gold, period. There is no real money transaction anywhere in the process.

  15. #735
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parcus View Post
    Nope, I've spent hundreds of dollars in subscription and 0 in cash shops, works both ways.
    Lucky. Between subscription fees, pet and mount purchases, server and faction changes I spent over $1000 in a subscription game. Never again, my friend.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 03:46 PM ----------

    I also purchased a set of Mystic Forge Stones to make the 250 stack Salvage Kits and a set of Fine Transmutation stones to sport my new look.
    All with in game gold
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  16. #736
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    People are not talking about the same thing here. No one is criticizing the fact that everyone has access to everything. That is fantastic and absolutely necessary for a cash shop of this magnitude to be tolerated by western costumers. The exact same identical cash shop has been in many FTP asian MMO's like PWI/Jade Dynasty for many years and it works great. No one is arguing that.

    The issue is not the cash shop itself, it is the conversion of real dollars into gold and visa versa. In GW2 gold=dollars, there is no arguing that.

    Now that would not be a big issue in a game like WoW where gold will not get you very far at all, however in GW2 you can do nearly everything relying purely on gold. That does not sit well with some people, no arguing that either.

    It does not sit well with some people either that some others get instantly what they farm weeks and weeks for.


    Now, the person above me said that the cash shop is optional in GW2. That is false. Gold=dollars in GW2. The moment you have gold in your bags, you have cash shop currency in your bags. It is the exact same thing. Whether you use it to shop in the cash shop or not, all the gold you generate is part of the economy.

    WoW does have a cash shop, but it is very much separated from the in-game economy. You can have a cool sparkly pony to ride on if that makes your boat float with real cash, or you can farm ashes of alar with real effort if that is what you like. You have the freedom to choose between the two, but in no way can you get ashes with cash, or a pony with gold.

    On top of that, gold in WoW does not even get you remotely close to BiS gear, contrary to GW2.


    GW2 is a fantastic beautiful game, but the D3-esque economy certainly takes it's toll on it's quality.
    Last edited by Thelxi; 2012-10-07 at 11:24 PM.

  17. #737
    Like in Rift, for example, you DO need to grind/farm to progress. To some degree you even have to grind XP for weeks to have some parity due to the AA system ala EQ/AOC. By design that game has massive brick walls that can only be overcome by meeting X, Y or Z threshold.

    That's a required grind. And it's bullshit.
    It's not required in those games either, if all you want to do is farm, explore, do achievements, pop into some 5-mans now and then...all the things that people say are "endgame" in GW2.

    It goes back to one of my original points...all GW2 did is remove the content that those other games had. It's hard to give them credit for "removing grinds", because the content normally associated with those grinds is gone. If they had removed the grinds AND had the depth of content other MMO's have, I'd be more impressed.

    It's kinda like saying you fixed a skipping cylinder in your car by simply removing the entire engine and throwing it out. Hard to give the mechanic credit for "fixing" that. I would have rather just had the problem fixed AND keep the engine.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    And doesn't this make subscription based games sound better and better.
    No. Ala carte spending is a lot better to customers than paying for a full sub whether or not they enjoy the entirety of the game over that sub period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    I was meaning character slots, bag slots, bank slots (30 slot is terribly tiny). Such things that are something that should be in game but are then forced upon you by real money purchases.
    By the way, all those unlock for 8 character slots / full bank slots = $82.50.
    How can those things be forced on you when they can be bought for gold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It's not required in those games either, if all you want to do is farm, explore, do achievements, pop into some 5-mans now and then...all the things that people say are "endgame" in GW2.
    It is required in those games.

    I can not run ID unless I have minimum threshold of Hit/Focus/Toughness. As a collective group we could can not pass areas without meeting a specific gear threshold.

    This was the same for TOR and Tera. And to a degree, TSW. It was true in WOW during the time I played it as well. If Blizzard changed something then I admit ignorance of the current World of Warcraft structure.

    That stuff was required to continue progressing &/or completion of content in many other MMOs. GW2 doesn't really have that- even level appropriate green gear is acceptable for expo modes & over world content.

    Didn't quote the rest of your post for the sake of formatting. But there is no endgame in GW2. The assertion is false by both the developers and fans. Marketing BS one should rightly dismiss.

  19. #739
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    On top of that, gold in WoW does not even get you remotely close to BiS gear, contrary to GW2.
    BMAH anyone? lol
    Otoh, in GW2 you can only get the most prestigious dungeon gear from the dungeons. Can't buy it anywhichway.
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  20. #740
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    How can those things be forced on you when they can be bought for gold?
    To quote myself again.
    There's a significant difference.
    Remember, someone has to buy the gems.
    Then someone has to sell the gems.
    If no one buys gems, then no one will be able to get the gems via gold. Thus no one will be getting any bank / bag slot / character expansions.
    The listed example (except Rift I don't remember much about it), are bought through in game gold, period. There is no real money transaction anywhere in the process.
    It's a game mechanic that should've been given to you to begin with, not something you should be limited by.

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