Perhaps I should do it a few more times and you can build a house out of them
Perhaps I should do it a few more times and you can build a house out of them
Game 20 ended. At the end there was some discussion on the topic of playing for/against your own goals. Some gave up, then came back, someone else gave, then the first gave up again. And there were a few thing that annoyed both me and others. Looking at the last night. Game might still have turned Dyra's way had she decided to kill Eniah or Silkku instead of committing suicide if there hadn't been a role claim earlier. Had Silkku decided to kill Dyra instead, the town could have won by voting him out. It may seem unlikely, but then people sometimes to unlikely things. They get a hunch of something and decide to do something different and the game turns around. The thought behind is that it makes the game (at least from my p.o.v.) end in a bit of anti-climax.
On the other hand, to quote someone from the dead thread:
"it's their own fault if they don't realize they still have a chance"
Is it a problem? Should it be forbidden to role claim a scum role? Should it be forbidden to vote yourself? Should it just be clearly stated that you should always play towards your factions goal? What should be the action if such a rule is not followed? Should nothing be done?
Other things that came up is the VT activity. Personally I think it has improved a bit to what it has been, but it can also improve. There has been some suggestions and this game introduced a flaw - Blood Thirst - for VTs to "force" a lynch and make people more active. Its success could be discussed. There was a lot of thoughts in the game about the effects to meta-game. As the game progressed there was less focus in the thread about it. I do not think it was a failure to introduce the BT, but I think it could have been said before hand so that people knew about it and could do the meta-talk outside the game. For future games, I think that one BT might be enough as well, but that it should still target only town aligned players. Do you have your own idea of things that might increase activity? I have an option that I will post later in the thread.
Another thing mentioned in the dead thread that touches the same subject (of lynching) would be to have the one with the highest number of votes lynched if no one reaches a majority of votes. What do you think of this? What do you think are the advantages and drawbacks? Should there be a minimum amount of votes or is one vote sufficient?
It has to be asked - would you have NKed yourself after a Silkku lynch, Dyra? That's the only way I would have believed your "I just don't want the SK to win" stuff, otherwise, it was just a strategy to get the town to vote for him - the same strategy he used on you in the end.
To that I say WP mafia WP SK.
The last bit: What if there were two people with an equal number of votes? I can see that being possibly abused. The town lately has rarely been focusing on anyone on day one or two and the mafia could kinda influence voting just enough to where someone they want dead at the end would be lynched.
And we lost, boooooooooooooooooo
TBH the idea of suiciding didn't occur to me until after they decided to go for the No-Lynch. So yes I would have won myself the game if Silkku had been lynched.
Silkku himself can confirm that I really didn't want the SK to win after I mistakenly PMed him my plans. More than a little humiliated on that front on how I got suckered in.
BTW I really couldn't have killed Silkku. His vest was still intact. And with his kill going first I would have only 1 night to get it done. It would have been 1 v 1 v 1 going into the final day and Silkku would definitely kill me that second night to guarantee himself the win.
I agree with you that having 2 BT VTs was maybe a little too much. It definitely encouraged us (Scum) to lurk since if we had nothing to fear from the lynch then we sure as hell didn't want one going off. Just the 1 BT VT would give incentive for activity to try to hit Scum to avoid definitely losing a Town.
I still think we should maintain a majority lynch. It would be a bit ridiculous on the first day if the lynch results was something like 3-2-2-1-1-1-1 sort of thing. And the presence of a BT VT should deter that sort lynch result anyway.
As for the voting on one's self and Scum role claiming..... well. I'm guilty of both this game so I can't really say.
Last edited by Dyra; 2012-11-20 at 07:52 PM.
A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
I don't think voting yourself should be disallowed. Sure you can argue "they're not playing to win" especially if they're one vote from death anyways, but sometimes(and this is rare) you can use it to deter votes if you're near death. As for mafia/sk or anyone with nk's suiciding, that's not allowed, or wasn't when I was mod. I remember one game I think it was Firebert was on one team and someone else(can't remember who now, maybe Anakso?) was on the other and they figured they stood no chance to beat the town and wanted to kill themselves. I told em they couldn't do that so they killed each other instead lol
I'm happy with the way this game ended. Voting no lynch was the only play the town had, even if it guaranteed a SK win. It was possible Silkku wouldn't have known who the mafia was, or that he would have made a mistake and hit town, but again, Dyra ruined both of those possibilities with the role claim and all =p
To sum up my thoughts:
There should be only one BT and they should only activate if town doesn't agree on anything at the end of the night so on a majority no-lynch vote BT wouldn't activate
Actively playing against one's victory conditions shouldn't be allowed
Suicide should not be option (self voting allowed)
Umm...yea, that was pretty much all. From the Cop/Doc/Mafia/Dead I've gathered that people don't seem to like VT role for some reason. I don't actually quite understand why though. It gives you free hands and makes you "one of the many", it's not like it's some punishment and means you should go AFK.
Oh, and Dead thread, Dyra's decisions in thegame turned out like they did because I did some skulduggery with PM's and left misleading posts on purpose for the NoCooky account, it wasn't Dyra making odd decisions :S
I sort of still feel like self voting shouldn't be allowed either. Imo you agreed to play the game, so play. Killing yourself is lame.
(although I'd prefer if people would try to trick others in turn instead of just going "I lost". Kisuro and Eniah could have tried to manipulate me into NKing Dyra for example)
but as an example out of this game, Dyra actively thinking how to get Town into a better position would be disallowed
Everyone keeps saying that they "think people hate playing as a VT" and that is the reason activity has gone down (though I really question how much the activity has gone down), but at the same time I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone actually say they don't like being a VT. I think most have agreed that they enjoy the game just the same.
This all seems like some sort of projecting trying to come up with a reason others aren't as active in these games, but if you actually look at forum activity for many of these people you'll see their posting is down across the board. It's what happens when people get busier in real life or move on to other things.
I still propose we go back to a more normal game. Hell, this games setup would be fine if we hadn't had the BT VT's or a cannibal with a vest.
Just think of how interesting the end of this game could have been had it been Eniah, Kisuro, Dyra, and Silkku facing off (without a vest) at the end of it. Silkku would've had to have taken a risk that Dyra wouldn't kill him in order to guarantee a win. Dyra would've had to figure out who the SK was and then go for the night kill while also hoping she wasn't the SK's night kill target...and then even if she got her kill off she would have had to convince one of the townies to vote with her on that last day. The townies would have both had to hope they survived that night and then figure out who to vote for on the last day.
It could have been a fun last day and a half if it wasn't for the vest. It could've been a fun entire game if it wasn't for people focusing so much on BT VT's and letting that dominate the beginning of the game.
Give me simplicity.
---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 02:15 PM ----------
I agree that the SK being NK immune is too much power to also be a cannibal. Especially if you're going to rule a 1v1 during the day a scum win. Winning as SK should be really difficult, but with a vest and priority NKing he just has to keep a mafia alive and get the game down to ~5 players and he can't possibly lose unless people just get mad at him and lynch him because they prefer a mafia win. Silkku played well but I wonder if this set up was perhaps too easy for him, not to take away any credit.
Mafia were too busy killing the most active players =p
SKs always do really well, they pretty much only ever die if the mafia happen to hit them with a night kill. On the anonymous forum I was aiming for the SK every single night and I think it took me like 5 tries to finally get him. If he had a bulletproof vest he probably would've won that game.
I can't really say I find the v est OP or anything on SK since the odds are stacked against you from the very start (others have team to fall back on) and not getting told when the vest is consumed really balances it even more. Themissing NK on Worg forced me to play with the assumption that my vest was popped and drove me to start the misdirection PM campaign (you can follow my panic posts in SK thread)
There is also the little thing that often when NK fails for the scum, they will target the person again.
So if you ask me, I'd leave the vest rule as it is.
Also, who here play on mafia scum or similiar forums? I really only know this place, MS and a Finnish Pokemon forum where people play online
On the topic of the cannibal with the vest: Foxxi and I discovered if we gave only one type of sk(strongman) a vest, no one would ever choose anything else. We then removed the vest and all sk's had no vests just perks. Everyone started choosing ninja then b/c we had a jail immunity on it. We removed that and that's when other types started getting used. In other words, you either have to give all types a vest or no types a vest and make sure there aren't any op immunities as well.