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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Clarissaxoxo View Post
    Zephyr you're wrong.

    Maximising DPS is doing the most damage - it's essentially playing the risk v reward card so tightly that 1 mess up ends in death, but because of you playing this card you do absurd damage. While it's true you "do not do damage while dead", in order to maximise your DPS we're talking about losing all defenses in order to push numbers as much as possible. What you're talking about is effective DPS, and there is a difference.

    Two different thief builds (they play the same):
    build 1 - http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fYAQ...IwxijDHJOLIGZA
    build 2 - http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fYAQ...JsyalzKpVDImZA

    largely similar however, build 1 sacrifices all defense and will push out maximum DPS, build do sacrifices some DPS for toughness in order to get more backstabs (you're losing power so you need to make up for it in damage), thus has a chance at doing more effective DPS.
    No, I'm not wrong. With other typical MMOs, yes I would be wrong. With Guild Wars 2, I'm not wrong. You are still thinking along the lines that games such as WoW have taught you. In those games, speccing and gearing all pure damage with ZERO survivability works. Because you have tanks and healers to keep you alive. Such is not the case in GW2. You HAVE to bring something to keep you alive...be it skills, traits, gear, or a combination of all of them. To spec PURE damage in this game and expect anything other than a few seconds of glorious fireworks is stupidity. It just does not work in this game. Yes, in may work in a select FEW situations, but the game as a whole (and in almost any regard that can be brought up), it does not work. And to say, "I did it in X situation, therefore it's viable" does not make it viable for the other 99% of the game. In order to do your maximum dps effectively, you need to learn how to survive as well, which weapon swapping contributes GREATLY to.

    To state otherwise in this game really shows your lack of knowledge in GW2.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 12:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gisei View Post
    I'm missing the point? But you basically just said what I said. So are we both missing the point?



    Talking about damage. Not survivability or any other factors.



    Uhh...



    Yep...

    Being effective encompasses all factors.
    I did not state what you stated. If you can read and comprehend properly, you'd see that. If you can't see that, then I'm not wasting my time on simple language and communication skills with you.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 12:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    Lol? I edited the post about Elementalist stance dancing, to elaborate the point; not the post about Warrior weapon swapping

    Stop putting words in my mouth. You clearly got confused at some point, and decided to accuse me of lacking knowledge which I have already demonstrated. You stand to gain nothing from continuing this, I understand that you got mixed up, and I'm not upset
    You're arguing for the sake of arguing. I've already pointed how you were wrong in what your said. Accept it or move on.

  2. #22
    The point was you were wrong about maximising DPS, you're correct about effective DPS.

    Think of it this way:

    maximum DPS is 100k and is produced by build 1
    effective DPS is 90k and is produced by build 2

    Build 1 does more dps but build 2 is more favourable because of the survivability the traits/skill choices lends itself.

    Also, I hit rank 10 with never swapping weapons. There's no need to as a thief. Daggers reign supreme.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post

    You're arguing for the sake of arguing. I've already pointed how you were wrong in what your said. Accept it or move on.
    Except I wasn't wrong? And you're the one that started arguing in the first place, because you didn't see me explain why Melee needs a Ranged weapon

    Reality check bro
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    Except I wasn't wrong? And you're the one that started arguing in the first place, because you didn't see me explain why Melee needs a Ranged weapon

    Reality check bro
    And the example you were trying to provide to back up your statement was not correct, especially in response to the OP. So yes, you were wrong. And I'm not your bro.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 12:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarissaxoxo View Post
    The point was you were wrong about maximising DPS, you're correct about effective DPS.

    Think of it this way:

    maximum DPS is 100k and is produced by build 1
    effective DPS is 90k and is produced by build 2

    Build 1 does more dps but build 2 is more favourable because of the survivability the traits/skill choices lends itself.

    Also, I hit rank 10 with never swapping weapons. There's no need to as a thief. Daggers reign supreme.
    The sooner you realize that effective DPS IS maximizing DPS in GW2, the sooner you'll start being a better player at GW2.

    3 seconds of OMG IN YOUR FACE LASERZ and then death is not maximizing your dps in GW2. Yes, it may give you a very high number in that space of 3 seconds...but in a game like GW2 that strategy doesn't count for SHIT. Learn to play this game the way it's meant to be played and stop spreading misinformation.

    And just because thieves aren't balanced correctly atm, does not mean your example is the right way to maximize dps....especially for the other professions.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    And the example you were trying to provide to back up your statement was not correct, especially in response to the OP. So yes, you were wrong. And I'm not your bro.
    I think you're confused

    The OP asked how to optimize DPS, and multiple people have said it depends on the Class. You got really volatile, and starting telling people they're wrong, because you don't understand the difference between theoretical damage, and throughput
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  6. #26
    High Overlord shalnath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    The sooner you realize that effective DPS IS maximizing DPS in GW2, the sooner you'll start being a better player at GW2.
    Different games don't give words different definitions. Everything Clarissa said is correct and even aligns with your expectations of how GW2 needs to be played. You don't need to go around forcing your ideology on everyone in sight, games are meant to be played for fun. In this case, the OP has fun by theorycrafting about squeezing out every last ounce of DPS they can. Whether or not that works all the time in GW2 is irrelevant because that's not what the thread was about.

    Also, try to be less insulting. The personal attacks don't make what you say true, especially when no one is really disagreeing that effective DPS is what counts.
    Last edited by shalnath; 2012-09-14 at 06:11 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    Different games don't give words different definitions. Everything Clarissa said is correct and even aligns with your expectations of how GW2 needs to be played. You don't need to go around forcing your ideology on everyone in sight, games are meant to be played for fun. In this case, the OP has fun by theorycrafting about squeezing out every last ounce of DPS they can. Whether or not that works all the time in GW2 is irrelevant because that's not what the thread was about.

    Also, try to be less insulting. The personal attacks don't make what you say true, especially when no one is really disagreeing that effective DPS is what counts.
    Well, to go for maximum dps in a game like GW2 (and ignore survivability) in the way people keep describing is the wrong way to play GW2. Have fun constantly dying in explore modes and getting owned in PvP. If they find that fun, then I guess they should go for it. But that doesn't make it the right way to play. Especially if they're grouped up with me or anyone else with common sense and causing wipefests and inhibiting progression in any way.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticktox View Post
    I'm curious, not because I don't feel like it or am incapable. I've just been trying a mesmer greatsword - sword/focus setup and it becomes VERY awkward. Mainly because greatsword you want to be as far as you can, and sword you got to be right in its face. So I keep running in and out in the fight if it's not on me. And I tried scepter in mainhand but that felt weak with a crit power build since it's strongest attack is a condition.

    If we're talking Mesmer's in PvE, greatsword is just nope. It's good for people who think they can afk at max range and turreting the boss, but dw swords and staff offhand do the most damage from what I've been trying out. Prepares for everything, damage, tanking (blocking attacks, etc) and support. But for max dps, nah I don't see it as necessary, I like to have a backup support weapon just in case shit does hit the fan, which tends to happen alot in pugs.


  9. #29
    High Overlord shalnath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    Well, to go for maximum dps in a game like GW2 (and ignore survivability) in the way people keep describing is the wrong way to play GW2. Have fun constantly dying in explore modes and getting owned in PvP. If they find that fun, then I guess they should go for it. But that doesn't make it the right way to play. Especially if they're grouped up with me or anyone else with common sense and causing wipefests and inhibiting progression in any way.
    Who are you to say what the right way to play is? If someone wants to be a glass cannon and feel the rush of death every fight then that's their choice and you're probably going to have a hard time convincing them it was the wrong one. I understand where you're coming from though, as it's not fun trying to carry someone that just doesn't get it, but it certainly doesn't make them wrong. Personally I think that's more of a game design flaw that it doesn't let them play that way, but let's not go there.

    What I don't understand is this quote of yours:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    For maximum dps? Yes it's necessary.

    For having fun playing the way you want to play? No it's not necessary.
    You're advocating playing the game the way you want but for some reason you have a problem with people that like pure DPS. Why such disdain?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    You're advocating playing the game the way you want but for some reason you have a problem with people that like pure DPS. Why such disdain?
    Read his posts, he clearly was shunned in wow for not delivering on damage meters and you can clearly see how.

    He advocates attunement switching on elementalist for maximum dps => Only true for scepter which is low dps by itself.
    Stacking survivability to survive longer in PvE => Only true if your bad at avoiding damage in the first place, its a horrible tradeoff except on die hard melee classes.
    He claims that in wow you could just stack max damage and get away with it because people healed you => LOL
    Claims the same for pvp => obviously never pvped in wow.

    He was wrong on so many other things that you probably read yourself, basicly everything he ever said in this thread is plain wrong.

    On Topic:
    Some classes even have features for switching and if these theorycraft into higher dps for you, you should do it

  11. #31
    Depends on the class and situation. Ask yourself a simple question, would you do more damage if you switched weapons when they got close? If yes, switch, if no, don't.
    One cannot simply quit wow his way into Mordor.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Deafknight View Post
    Read his posts, he clearly was shunned in wow for not delivering on damage meters and you can clearly see how.

    He advocates attunement switching on elementalist for maximum dps => Only true for scepter which is low dps by itself. You've obviously never done any serious playing with an elementalist then.
    Stacking survivability to survive longer in PvE => Only true if your bad at avoiding damage in the first place, its a horrible tradeoff except on die hard melee classes.Have fun during the times when you simply just can't avoid the damage or when the boss just randomly decides to hit you with something that you literally can't dodge or don't have time to block. And yes it does happen, don't say that it doesn't. You've obviously never done any kind of explore mode seriously, especially with one of the squishier professions either.
    He claims that in wow you could just stack max damage and get away with it because people healed you => LOLAnd you could. Minus the fights where you actually HAD to move, you could quite literally stand in the same area and spam your rotation to try and achieve maximum dps. In GW2, that usually means death. And if you were speccing into survival talents as dps in WoW? Seriously, what was wrong with you? You obviously never raided in WoW if you think otherwise.
    Claims the same for pvp => obviously never pvped in wow.Oh really? Let's ignore the endless mana healers in pvp then that quite literally made it impossible to kill people at times or at least made them a BITCH to kill.

    He was wrong on so many other things that you probably read yourself, basicly everything he ever said in this thread is plain wrong.Perhaps you should read what you just typed and think on it a bit, hmm?

    On Topic:
    Some classes even have features for switching and if these theorycraft into higher dps for you, you should do it
    Yeah, try again.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 04:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    Who are you to say what the right way to play is? If someone wants to be a glass cannon and feel the rush of death every fight then that's their choice and you're probably going to have a hard time convincing them it was the wrong one. I understand where you're coming from though, as it's not fun trying to carry someone that just doesn't get it, but it certainly doesn't make them wrong. Personally I think that's more of a game design flaw that it doesn't let them play that way, but let's not go there.

    What I don't understand is this quote of yours:

    You're advocating playing the game the way you want but for some reason you have a problem with people that like pure DPS. Why such disdain?
    I guess if they're having fun then ok. But if their "fun" is inhibiting others around them, then their "fun" is making it not fun for everyone else. If you want to play a certain way (that sucks) then go ahead...just don't bring everyone else down with you. Anet claims that people can play however they want and still be effective....unfortunately with gear, stats, traits, weapons, etc still being determining factors, there will always be builds that are much more effective than others, regardless of how hard Anet tries. Stacking condition damage gear and having no conditions in your traits or weapon setup is bad. Just because you might think that setup is "fun" doesn't mean you should be doing it.

    Example: I just saw a lvl 80 guardian the other day who was geared and traited for a greatsword build. Guess what he was using? Staff and Mace/Shield. When I asked him why he was traited that way, he said for "when I feel like getting my greatsword out and using it from time to time". Did he think that build was "fun"? I'm sure he did. But he was hella subpar in the group which made the rest of us have to pick up his slack because of his sheer stupidity...I'm sorry, I mean because he was having "fun".
    Last edited by Zephyr Storm; 2012-09-14 at 09:57 AM.

  13. #33
    Pandaren Monk ZeroWashu's Avatar
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    Screw greatsword as a mesmer, its staff and sword/sword or staff and sword/focus.

    start off at range and when it requires melee then swap. that will reduce the need to swap as much as possible. If your after phantasms. well your going to have to swap. However, for regular pve encounters its meaningless, damn auto attack can kill most single targets. Groups require special work as a mesmer as our illusions/phantasms are single target only... meaning they poof after their original target dies.
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  14. #34
    Playing the thief build #1 I linked is the best way to play a thief. You don't need defensive CDs because you spend the majority of the time in stealth (making yourself untargetable in PvE/PvP) and outside of stealth you have Death Blossom to act as your evade, and using Death Blossom isn't necessarily a DPS loss due to 30% extra duration on conditions paired with the 10% extra damage on conditions (from the trickery trait).

    You're right about there being builds which are better than others, that's why I linked the best 2 DPS builds currently available. One is pure damage, the other trades damage for a bit more mitigation. The primary build will always be better in situations where you know you can survive without the extra mitigation, for those fights without then build number 2 becomes the best.

    This is basic theorycrafting.

  15. #35
    What people should comprehend is that maximum dps output =/= maximum damage output

    Let's say I do 10000 dps in 2 second and then I go into downstate from boss hits.
    My dps during that period of time is 5000 and my total damage is 10000

    After that fight I change my build to a more durable one and this time I go into downstate after 30 seconds, doing 30000 damage
    My dps during that period of time is 1000, which is 5 times lower than my previous build.
    However, my total damage output is 30000, which is 3 times higher.

    This is where most of you are getting confused.
    Your dps can be high when your total damage output is low.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Shortcut View Post
    What people should comprehend is that maximum dps output =/= maximum damage output

    Let's say I do 10000 dps in 2 second and then I go into downstate from boss hits.
    My dps during that period of time is 5000 and my total damage is 10000

    After that fight I change my build to a more durable one and this time I go into downstate after 30 seconds, doing 30000 damage
    My dps during that period of time is 1000, which is 5 times lower than my previous build.
    However, my total damage output is 30000, which is 3 times higher.

    This is where most of you are getting confused.
    Your dps can be high when your total damage output is low.
    Yes, hence the differentiation necessary between maximum DPS and effective DPS.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2789&e=2961

    My char is Clarqt and I'm playing my offspec (shadow) here. Skuggs is our resident shadow priest. Now I died in the fight because I'm a retard and alt tabbed to loop Wonderwall. However look at the figures:

    Skuggs - 52001.0
    Clarqt - 45480.7

    Those values are your MAXIMUM DPS. This takes into account the DPS you achieved before you stopped DPSing (for the case of DoT classes such as the Spriest, it's when the final DoT ticks). Now, effective DPS is the DPS measured over the course of the entire fight:

    Skuggs - 51490.6
    Clarqt - 35561.7

    People are confusing the two values. Zephyr is commenting on EFFECTIVE DPS, not MAXIMUM DPS.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticktox View Post
    I'm curious, not because I don't feel like it or am incapable. I've just been trying a mesmer greatsword - sword/focus setup and it becomes VERY awkward. Mainly because greatsword you want to be as far as you can, and sword you got to be right in its face. So I keep running in and out in the fight if it's not on me. And I tried scepter in mainhand but that felt weak with a crit power build since it's strongest attack is a condition.

    Is it ok to just do your basic 1 attack and still be doing decent damage? Or do I really want to be running in and out all day with this setup? Or is this just a terrible setup? If thats the case it doesn't seem like much of anything works well with greatsword and almost like have to run condition for mesmer.

    I mainly had the idea that I'd stay at range unless something comes after me and then switch to sword. But in dungeons it doesn't always work that way, in fact it usually doesn't. Many times the mob will just be hitting someone else and you can sit ranged all day. So is it ok to just spam 1 while everything else is on CD?
    All cooldown classes: Yes, depending on traits in combination with the selected weapon.
    Thiefs: No (assuming everyone carries a SB in the secondary slot)

    But to be more precise, I'd say that dps in this game doesn't matter (as long as enrage timers aren't introduced) and that survival is essential, in which case swapping becomes essential for all classes, because one weapon only has limited amounts of CC or evasion, thus managing those across weapons becomes a must.

    As for you, can't you go Sword/pistol + Greatsword?

    Take Blink and portal as utility skills (I'm not sure on the effect of portal, but blink should work).

    Empty CD's on greatsword, swap, use 4, 5, 3 + 3, 2 ,1 until swap CD resets, blink back, empty CD's of greatsword, repeat.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-09-14 at 11:04 AM.

  18. #38
    If you want to maximize only dps regardless of the situation, yes you swap weapons to manage its cd's. However most moves have a secondary component which can be supportive to the group or yourself and wasting it for dps instead of when you really need it will be hurtful.

    There is nothing wrong with either method.

    Empty CD's on greatsword, swap, use 4, 5, 3 + 3, 2 ,1 until swap CD resets, blink back, empty CD's of greatsword, repeat.
    This is an example if you don't need the secondary effects of greatsword, the knockback the boon removal, and the cripple.
    Last edited by zito; 2012-09-14 at 11:12 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    This is an example if you don't need the secondary effects of greatsword, the knockback the boon removal, and the cripple.
    Absolutely, it's the pure DPS variant of a rotation such as in WoW. I would personally never take such a set-up, because it leaves you vulnerable, but it does answer the question

  20. #40
    At least some people understand what I'm trying to say..

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