Mage Rant /and/ How would you nerf Mages?

[Lolretadin]

Mages, for years, have been completely overpowered compared to every class, and this expansion seems as though it will be no different. Being someone who has played a Ret, a Warrior, a Warlock, and an Ele Shaman since the patch dropped, I can say that they are a hardcounter to basically everything. Warriors have never actually stood a chance against a good mage, nor have Ele Shaman. But Warlocks, who were at least able to compete, and Ret Paladin, with whos plethora of anti-cc abilities one would think they would have the edge to at least make a good fight, both fall horribly short in comparison to Mages.

On my Ret Paladin, for example, I get absolutely nowhere against a Mage. I cannot move at all. I use Hand of Freedom, they Spellsteal spam and then root me. If I talent Clemency, it is gone again. Spamming Emancipate doesn't help, either, as the GCD I use to get a Judgement off or use a CD other than one to stop their roots and slows, I get slowed again. Even then, I cannot do it indefinitly as I will run OOM quickly by spamming it. Toting a respectable 60% PvP Resilience, one would think Mage damage would at least be mitigated. This does not seem to be the case either. With you either being killed in, quite literally from a recount log I looked at from a BG, 7 seconds by just a Mage chaining Pyroblast and Inferno Blast. And when they are Frost, then they at least give up some mobility. But, no, their CC does not diminish. In fact, they stun you with Deep Freeze and then Icelance and Frostbolt spam to victory.

On my Warlock, things are not much better. As Destruction, no Mage is stupid enough to someone get off a Chaos Bolt, so your damage is terrible. You flat out cannot beat a competent Mage as Destro. But what about Affliction? Surely they would do better? Sure. They do a little better, but they still aren't much of a threat to Mages. As you are forced to Channel for most of your damage, you're more susceptable to CC and Silences hurting your damage than ever before, as most of your DoT damage is caused by the Maelfic Grasp proc. Sure, if they're Frost there's a chance. A small chance. But as Fire, the burst is far too high for an Affliction Warlock to heal through at current. And the current survivability CD for Warlocks do nothing but delay the inevitable loss against the Fire Mage. Sacrificial Pact essentially means you're just killed your demon, and Soul Link essentially means that you're taking almost full DoT damage as your pet will probably at least have Living Bomb on it.

TL;DR
Mages are overpowered, and nothing on the beta has done anything to belay this. In fact, the things I have seen on the Beta have done nothing but reassured me that Mages will, again, be king as they have been the past few years of Cataclysm.

Moving onwards, if I were to nerf Mages, I would reduce their critical strike damage from 200% down to about 150% to counteract their massive burst damage against everyone. In conjunction I would be decreasing the effectiveness of their slows by 40%, lowing their slows from 50% down to 30% as their ability to kite is, honestly, sickeningly good.

[jimmy valmer]

I have globaled many players on my fire mage since this patch. However nothing will happen until 90. That is what changes are for and that is when blizzard will monitor pvp closely to see if pvp is still out of wack.

Or mages will just stay op anyway. I have 10 85s so ill just cling onto the best one xD

[Illunis]

Good ele can shear/purge train a mage.
Good ret can keep themselves alive, and abuse LOS to get the upper hand. Plus with the new wings talent, 3s CD hammer of wrath.
I'll agree with the point about warriors not standing a chance usually.
And warlocks, honestly, find yourself a rogue and shaman and go faceroll 3s. Instant fear + dot spam > Any mage spec in 3v3

Game isn't balanced around 1v1, don't cry nerf before you realize that.

Lets be honest though, the game isn't balanced period right now. Values and scaling are mostly scaled to 90 values. We're just in that awkward stage of imbalance before the values reach the point they were designed for.

[Munjica]

I have Obliterated mage both fire and frost with my retri pala. I guess I found right talents, but it was due to the healing of retri pala. Mage did 3-4 times more damage then me for sure.

[Tullkas]

I have globaled many players on my fire mage since this patch. However nothing will happen until 90. That is what changes are for and that is when blizzard will monitor pvp closely to see if pvp is still out of wack.

Or mages will just stay op anyway. I have 10 85s so ill just cling onto the best one xD

as If they dont have beta running for half a year.... jeez why is pvp balance always left as last and during the 1st season on live. Again OP classes and comps will skyrocket high while they can and they will sit there stupidly to wait for their Gladiator rank...

[Lolretadin]

Good ele can shear/purge train a mage.
Good ret can keep themselves alive, and abuse LOS to get the upper hand. Plus with the new wings talent, 3s CD hammer of wrath.
I'll agree with the point about warriors not standing a chance usually.
And warlocks, honestly, find yourself a rogue and shaman and go faceroll 3s. Instant fear + dot spam > Any mage spec in 3v3

Game isn't balanced around 1v1, don't cry nerf before you realize that.

Lets be honest though, the game isn't balanced period right now. Values and scaling are mostly scaled to 90 values. We're just in that awkward stage of imbalance before the values reach the point they were designed for.

Ele damage output is too low to pressure a good Fire Mage.
And keeping myself alive on my Ret for a period of time isn't a problem unless the Mage decides to use Silence or Deep Freeze while my Divine Shield is on CD, I generally have to use WoG every 3 HPow either way, as well as FoL every Selfless Healer 3stack.

Also, it's based around the fact that they were ridiculous on both the Beta and now on live. Being able to almost kill a class within an opener on the Beta should have been a red-light to Blizzard. I think Hogmanlolz did a video on his Fire Mage at 90; where he complained about Warlock self heals while outputting a lot more damage and winning every duel against said Warlock.

Also, with the homoginization already in game it is not unrealistic to want the game to be based around 1v1 in at least a limited sense.

[Deleted]

I think Hogmanlolz did a video on his Fire Mage at 90; where he complained about Warlock self heals while outputting a lot more damage and winning every duel against said Warlock.

Also, with the homoginization already in game it is not unrealistic to want the game to be based around 1v1 in at least a limited sense.

Cartoonz videos isnt "facts". He has consistently been editing out every lost duel in his uploads - the duels against the Warlock for example; his opponent was uploading the videos he won. Wich was a little less than half of them, despite the fact that those duels was before the nerf to the hillarious op combustion. Cartoonz is just, like most youtubers these days, going for alot of views - he knows that "oneshot" macros and huge crits will give his videos alot of attention (note how his videos is some of the most linked too, on the forums).
Firemages might be op in MOp but Cartoonz videos is not evidence - go watch some lvl 90 arena streams instead.
One thing i personaly think is stupid is Spellsteal spam. Using it as a spamable ghetto HOT cant be intended gameplay.

[WaitingforMoP]

Nerf them by upping the damage absorbed by ice bubble by 999%, allowing them to have 10 permanent elemental minions out (4 of which are overpowered healers, 2 are tank, the others are dps, all as strong and smart as fully geared/real players) and a new passive ability that regenerates 15% of max hp/mp every second, oh and the ability to fly without a mount and even during combat

.......... what? I'm against nerfs....

[ipoststuff]

Ret paladin here. Im with you on the mages are OP things but i dont think there should be any nerfs before lvl 90. We dont know how lvl 90 will play out yet.

We rets have been nerfed because of our overpoweredness during pre-TBC patch. For the rest of the TBC we sucked for it. It wasnt fun.

[Lolretadin]

Cartoonz videos isnt "facts". He has consistently been editing out every lost duel in his uploads - the duels against the Warlock for example; his opponent was uploading the videos he won. Wich was a little less than half of them, despite the fact that those duels was before the nerf to the hillarious op combustion. Cartoonz is just, like most youtubers these days, going for alot of views - he knows that "oneshot" macros and huge crits will give his videos alot of attention (note how his videos is some of the most linked too, on the forums).
Firemages might be op in MOp but Cartoonz videos is not evidence - go watch some lvl 90 arena streams instead.
One thing i personaly think is stupid is Spellsteal spam. Using it as a spamable ghetto HOT cant be intended gameplay.

In the context that it was used in, it was a good example. It was used as an example of how high the burst of a Fire Mage is - nothing more.

[a little Kappa]

I can tell you I just love to play my mage now. I crit SO much more than before and my damage is just insane + I can't really die. I also love how retarded SP's are since my mate who started the game last month is now full cata geared with stamina gems and he beats me in duel by clicking

[silchas1]

they dont need nerfing just roll hunter and mage dies simples

[Hand Banana]

Yes mages are amazing at 1v1 and everywhere and very good players are damn dominant with them.

However literally everything in your post is contrary to what ive seen right now. My warrior has lost to only 2 mages so far after dueling 25+ and never lost a 1v1 in bgs (the mage has to be at least 2000+ to even make me burn cds), my friends ret destroys mages right now as they are unkiteable and have rediculous self-healing. Ele's have always destroyed mages, i havent seen any ele/mage duels in 5.0 yet but before then it wasnt even a challenge. Lock/mage (afflic) duels can really go either way, im confused at locks dependance on channeling you mention, if your talking about maleific the damage is less than spamming fel flame. With 80k+ shield gained from our petsac and instant fears/stuns and silence while cc'd its a pretty even fight most of the time.

The way I look at it is this: Frost is too strong because mastery is way too high, hell with mage armor and BoM they get like 1800 more mastery just from buffs. Fire is too strong because they have deep freeze (which I would remove) and crit is too high. The mastery and crit problems will most likely go away at lvl 90 but I dunno.

[Deleted]

they dont need nerfing just roll hunter and mage dies simples

thumbs up to that comment

[Requital]

< snip >

Hyperbole much? I remember last expansion when Ret abilities were designed for level 85 but they were so OP @ 80 that they nerfed the piss out of them Mages at this point need the same treatment they can re-examine them at 90 but there is no reason the game should be so absurdly out of balance and accepted for Mages.

[Gratlim]

I would nerf they dmg scaling by 50% under 90. Then I would put a real CD on blink and nova.

[Lolretadin]

Yes mages are amazing at 1v1 and everywhere and very good players are damn dominant with them.

However literally everything in your post is contrary to what ive seen right now. My warrior has lost to only 2 mages so far after dueling 25+ and never lost a 1v1 in bgs (the mage has to be at least 2000+ to even make me burn cds), my friends ret destroys mages right now as they are unkiteable and have rediculous self-healing. Ele's have always destroyed mages, i havent seen any ele/mage duels in 5.0 yet but before then it wasnt even a challenge. Lock/mage (afflic) duels can really go either way, im confused at locks dependance on channeling you mention, if your talking about maleific the damage is less than spamming fel flame. With 80k+ shield gained from our petsac and instant fears/stuns and silence while cc'd its a pretty even fight most of the time.

The way I look at it is this: Frost is too strong because mastery is way too high, hell with mage armor and BoM they get like 1800 more mastery just from buffs. Fire is too strong because they have deep freeze (which I would remove) and crit is too high. The mastery and crit problems will most likely go away at lvl 90 but I dunno.

1) It is an uphill fight for Warriors when they fight Mages. A good Mage should NEVER lose to an equally geared or skilled Warrior.

2) As a Ret I have a chance against a Mage if I pop all my CD and I have defensives still up. Keep in mind that Mages don't have to pop any long offensive CD to be competative dps in BGs now. Ret healing is nice as long as you can stay in melee, which a good Mage can mitigate better than anyone else. Even then, spamming heals causes the fight to drag on, which is also good for the Mage as their numbers are more consistent than Ret in PvP (Given they are Fire; Frost is rather bursty but can still do decent sustained).

3) I have both an Ele Shaman and a Mage. Prior to 5.0, I would almost never beat a Mage on my Ele nor lose to an Ele on my Mage. Now, with the damage changes to Ele (Which are a huge buff in PvP), Mages still have a bit of an edge with the amount of CC and utility they have, Ele is a little weak in regards to defensives.

4) The Warlock class' Maelfic Grasp does a LOT more damage than Felfire spam. Maelfic Grasp has a mechanic that causes your DoTs to tick for 50% of their normal periodic damage. Hence why it is the main ability for Warlocks. Without it, Warlock DoTs are probably weaker than even DK diseases when compared DoT to DoT.

5) The problem is that petsac spec causes a loss in survivability overall, even though with a healer it is amazing. Petsac spec also causes you to lose your pet utility which is a hard hit in PvP. Realistically your toolbox for CC as petsac spec is an instant Fear and then your choice between a 3 sec AoE stun, a 3 sec Horror effect, and an AoE fear with 30 sec, 45 sec, and 40 sec CDs respectively.

6) Frost is powerful, but not that hard to deal with when compared to Fire. Frost you can at the very least partially counter by trinketing the Deep Freeze, at which point the Mage is going to be suffering from the lack of frozen target damage, albeit the damage will still be significant. Fire, however, does not have this constraint. You could take 3 Pyroblasts in a row if the Mage gets first cast on you, and if they all crit, which they usually will, you're looking at somewhere between 90k - 135k damage total from just the Pyroblasts (not including the DoT and Inferno Blast confim crits).

[Spirion]

Mages, for years, have been completely overpowered compared to every class, and this expansion seems as though it will be no different. Being someone who has played a Ret, a Warrior, a Warlock, and an Ele Shaman since the patch dropped, I can say that they are a hardcounter to basically everything. Warriors have never actually stood a chance against a good mage, nor have Ele Shaman. But Warlocks, who were at least able to compete, and Ret Paladin, with whos plethora of anti-cc abilities one would think they would have the edge to at least make a good fight, both fall horribly short in comparison to Mages.

On my Ret Paladin, for example, I get absolutely nowhere against a Mage. I cannot move at all. I use Hand of Freedom, they Spellsteal spam and then root me. If I talent Clemency, it is gone again. Spamming Emancipate doesn't help, either, as the GCD I use to get a Judgement off or use a CD other than one to stop their roots and slows, I get slowed again. Even then, I cannot do it indefinitly as I will run OOM quickly by spamming it. Toting a respectable 60% PvP Resilience, one would think Mage damage would at least be mitigated. This does not seem to be the case either. With you either being killed in, quite literally from a recount log I looked at from a BG, 7 seconds by just a Mage chaining Pyroblast and Inferno Blast. And when they are Frost, then they at least give up some mobility. But, no, their CC does not diminish. In fact, they stun you with Deep Freeze and then Icelance and Frostbolt spam to victory.

On my Warlock, things are not much better. As Destruction, no Mage is stupid enough to someone get off a Chaos Bolt, so your damage is terrible. You flat out cannot beat a competent Mage as Destro. But what about Affliction? Surely they would do better? Sure. They do a little better, but they still aren't much of a threat to Mages. As you are forced to Channel for most of your damage, you're more susceptable to CC and Silences hurting your damage than ever before, as most of your DoT damage is caused by the Maelfic Grasp proc. Sure, if they're Frost there's a chance. A small chance. But as Fire, the burst is far too high for an Affliction Warlock to heal through at current. And the current survivability CD for Warlocks do nothing but delay the inevitable loss against the Fire Mage. Sacrificial Pact essentially means you're just killed your demon, and Soul Link essentially means that you're taking almost full DoT damage as your pet will probably at least have Living Bomb on it.

TL;DR
Mages are overpowered, and nothing on the beta has done anything to belay this. In fact, the things I have seen on the Beta have done nothing but reassured me that Mages will, again, be king as they have been the past few years of Cataclysm.

Moving onwards, if I were to nerf Mages, I would reduce their critical strike damage from 200% down to about 150% to counteract their massive burst damage against everyone. In conjunction I would be decreasing the effectiveness of their slows by 40%, lowing their slows from 50% down to 30% as their ability to kite is, honestly, sickeningly good.

Mages are fine. Quit crying. You know what they say... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

[Sunslayer]

Mages are fine. Quit crying. You know what they say... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

This is my plan come MoP. I am done waiting for nerfs and balance that never come to Mages. Undead Mage will be my main for MoP. Godmode for both PvE and PvP, cant gop wrong with the chosen class of WoW.