1. #401
    based on my sim it's Agi > Str > AP > Mastery = Crit = Haste = Exp = Hit, should I then reforge hit/exp out into Mastery?

  2. #402
    well sims shouldnt be telling you that your stat weights are all equal, for one thing.

    Mastery usually comes out ahead of hit/exp capping, but that's for a computer. For a human being, the stability of hit/exp cap often affords more dps in practice.

  3. #403
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zolakt View Post
    based on my sim it's Agi > Str > AP > Mastery = Crit = Haste = Exp = Hit, should I then reforge hit/exp out into Mastery?
    To look good on paper yes, what you need to take in consideration is that our dps can vary ALOT depending on RNG especially when using DoC since you do lose 1 stack when you miss a spell for example. I'd say in practice that Hit & Exp cap is something to "go for" for an more stable and good dps. Yes you would probably with some luck do better on some pulls with more Mastery and Crit then Hit & Exp cap but in a length it is not stable.

    However without DoC it would be arguable that Mastery and Crit would pull ahead because we don't have alot of big hitting abilities and we don't have a DoC stack to wipe off, and we do get energy back from missing a spell.
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  4. #404
    mast crit and haste are actually slightly ahead of hit/exp in my sim with mastery being the highest. so i guess i would reforge out of hit/exp into mastery then

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by zolakt View Post
    mast crit and haste are actually slightly ahead of hit/exp in my sim with mastery being the highest. so i guess i would reforge out of hit/exp into mastery then
    I advise against it, from someone who min-maxes and generally does well on rankings whatever I happen to be playing, it really just isn't worth it. Give me 20 more ilvls so I have similar gear to the top rankers and I guarantee you I'd be front page on every fight - and I hit/exp cap. Your mileage may vary but honestly I've seen so many people fall prey to the false hope of "if i follow simcraft I'll pull the best dps" its just not true in practice a lot of the time.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    I advise against it, from someone who min-maxes and generally does well on rankings whatever I happen to be playing, it really just isn't worth it. Give me 20 more ilvls so I have similar gear to the top rankers and I guarantee you I'd be front page on every fight - and I hit/exp cap. Your mileage may vary but honestly I've seen so many people fall prey to the false hope of "if i follow simcraft I'll pull the best dps" its just not true in practice a lot of the time.
    thanks for the advice, was almost gonna do it

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by zolakt View Post
    thanks for the advice, was almost gonna do it
    no problem, i actually was about to delete my post and rephrase it :P

    What I said applies but a better way to put it is that you should do what you're comfortable with. Once you're completely accustomed to the feral rotation, to DoC etc, then you definitely can consider dropping some hit/exp for mastery. Especially as your gear improves so that you're near-capped anyway. From what I've seen the top ferals are favoring mastery then as near hit/exp cap as they can get, and reforging out of crit and haste. Personally I hit/exp cap but it definitely is a matter of preference.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by zolakt View Post
    mast crit and haste are actually slightly ahead of hit/exp in my sim with mastery being the highest. so i guess i would reforge out of hit/exp into mastery then
    Most top ferals are taking the hit and exp caps over stacking mastery (myself included)

  9. #409
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    I wouldn't reforge Mastery to Hit & Exp but everything else.

    Edit: Updated! 5.1 is only tooltip changes the playstyle itself is not changed!
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
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  10. #410
    Adding my 2 cents, if you don't Hit & Expertise cap you're gimping your target swaps by not being able reliable refresh bleeds as you leave a target, and you're massively gimping your AoE because Hit and Expertise are by far the best secondary stat for that.

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  11. #411
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Adding my 2 cents, if you don't Hit & Expertise cap you're gimping your target swaps by not being able reliable refresh bleeds as you leave a target, and you're massively gimping your AoE because Hit and Expertise are by far the best secondary stat for that.
    Well said^^^

    I would also like to add that if you aren't capped, you do run a chance, albeit low, that you will miss on a finisher. If you are running DoC, that means losing 1 charge and potentially ruining that Rip.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paloro View Post
    Well said^^^

    I would also like to add that if you aren't capped, you do run a chance, albeit low, that you will miss on a finisher. If you are running DoC, that means losing 1 charge and potentially ruining that Rip.
    Lining up both trinkets TF DoC and a Pot when boss are at 29% missing the Rip twice with NS... Never again...
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
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  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    @Arctagon: It has been for a while and still is that you want to use them both at the same time 99% of the time. The only time that is not the case is when the waiting for TF to come off cooldown would clip your Berserk from the boss dying.
    So if Berserk has, say, 7 seconds left on its cooldown as TF comes off cooldown, I'll just pop TF right away and wait for it to come off cooldown again before I use Berserk, seeing that the boss survives long enough for Berserk to finish?

    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    If you have an equal item level weapon it is a small gain if you can do it at a time that will minimally impact your cooldown usage and bleed uptimes.
    Sounds very inconvenient to swap to a caster weapon, spam Wrath or whatever it is you're supposed to do, swap back to main weapon, refresh bleeds, back to caster weapon, continue spamming, back to main weapon, refresh bleeds, use TF etc. How much of an increase are we talking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    Most top ferals are taking the hit and exp caps over stacking mastery (myself included)
    You're not hit capped at the moment, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Adding my 2 cents, if you don't Hit & Expertise cap you're gimping your target swaps by not being able reliable refresh bleeds as you leave a target, and you're massively gimping your AoE because Hit and Expertise are by far the best secondary stat for that.
    Not to mention whenever we're cleaving. On Stone Guards we're cleaving the entire fight. Nice not being hit and expertise capped there. Regarding that, I'm still not sure whether or not it's worth using Shred to extend Rip while cleaving. Anyone?

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Arctagon View Post
    So if Berserk has, say, 7 seconds left on its cooldown as TF comes off cooldown, I'll just pop TF right away and wait for it to come off cooldown again before I use Berserk, seeing that the boss survives long enough for Berserk to finish?


    Sounds very inconvenient to swap to a caster weapon, spam Wrath or whatever it is you're supposed to do, swap back to main weapon, refresh bleeds, back to caster weapon, continue spamming, back to main weapon, refresh bleeds, use TF etc. How much of an increase are we talking?
    If you somehow get yourself into the stated situation, it depends, but the short answer is that you have to either choose to delay berserk by 23 seconds or choose to delays TF by 7 seconds so that you can use the 2 together. Which one you should do depends on the situation, if you know your raid team will be popping Bloodlust or the boss is going to be taking increased damage then you should wait for Berserk to come off cooldown (or the boss won't be alive for another TF), otherwise you should probably use TF and then use your berserk with your next TF.

    The golden rule of cooldown management is you always want do whatever will give you the most usages of both across the encounter. If holding your Tiger's Fury to use it with your Berserk that's about to come of cooldown will mean that you're casting 1 less Tiger's Fury during the encounter, you shouldn't do it. If holding your Berserk because it was going to come off cooldown 10 seconds after when you should use Tiger's Fury would cause you to cast 1 less Berserk during the encounter, you shouldn't do it.

    However, Berserk has a 180 second cooldown and TF has a 30 second cooldown, so you would've had to have delayed your TF by a cumulative total of 23 seconds over 3 minutes for that situation to happen, and it shouldn't unless you're specifically holding your TFs for burst (ex: making sure your TF is up for bloods on Madness of Deathwing) or the fight has extensive amounts of downtime (ex: P1 Blade Lord Ta'yak). On more straightforward encounters (Gara'jal, Feng, or even something like Vizier) you should be aiming to have cumulatively delayed your TF by no more than a couple seconds over that 3 minute period so that you can use your Berserk the moment it comes off cooldown.

    --

    I don't know anything about switching back and forth between casting and feral-ing between Heart of the Wild, I meant that you would want use the entirety of your Heart of the Wild in a way that minimally impacts your cooldowns and bleeds. For example, you would want to make sure that your Berserk would not come off cooldown, your TF would be delayed as few seconds as possible, and you had just put up a fresh Rip and Rake.

    To do that, you would probably want to activate a TF that refreshes your Rip and Rake, make sure you've dumped all of your energy, and then use your Heart of the Wild immediately after.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2012-12-01 at 04:47 AM.

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  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    The golden rule of cooldown management is you always want do whatever will give you the most usages of both across the encounter. If holding your Tiger's Fury to use it with your Berserk that's about to come of cooldown will mean that you're casting 1 less Tiger's Fury during the encounter, you shouldn't do it. If holding your Berserk because it was going to come off cooldown 10 seconds after when you should use Tiger's Fury would cause you to cast 1 less Berserk during the encounter, you shouldn't do it.
    If, for example, your bleeds are about to fall off, you have TF available and berserk has 10 seconds left, that to me is a no-brainer. Refresh bleeds with TF, wait for energy to get high and berserk without TF seems like the optimal choice for me. Sure if you know that the fight is going to end soon enough that theres no way you'll be able to berserk again, holding that berserk for the next TF is *slightly* better. That's only really relevant for farm content to get the best possible dps though; for progression if it does similar overall damage, its better NOT to backload that damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    I don't know anything about switching back and forth between casting and feral-ing between Heart of the Wild, I meant that you would want use the entirety of your Heart of the Wild in a way that minimally impacts your cooldowns and bleeds. For example, you would want to make sure that your Berserk would not come off cooldown, your TF would be delayed as few seconds as possible, and you had just put up a fresh Rip and Rake.
    Last time I tried it, HOTW wrathing gave me a minor but noticeable dps increase over staying in cat, something in the vicinity of 15% more if I had to ballpark it. 15% more dps for 45 seconds in a 6 minute fight is only a couple percent increase overall, so you definitely have to make full use of the cooldown for it to be worth it. If you pop it and then have to move around (and therefore do no dps because wrath is the ONLY thing worth casting) it'll have been a waste.

  16. #416
    I have 1500+ VP and I got Bottle of Infinite Stars and Relic of Xuen. I'm just wondering which one I should upgrade first. I'm not going be able to get the any better bottle for a long time.
    Last edited by Cruit; 2012-12-01 at 11:09 PM.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruit View Post
    I have 1500+ VP and I got Bottle of Infinite Stars and Relic of Xuen. I'm just wondering which one I should upgrade first. I'm not going be able to get the any better bottle for a long time.
    Relic is BIS

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigzumzah View Post
    Relic is BIS
    Relic is not BiS in full Heroic gear, heroic bottle, and heroic lei shi trinket are.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Conatzer View Post
    Relic is not BiS in full Heroic gear, heroic bottle, and heroic lei shi trinket are.
    He linked normal bottle, not heroic captain correction.

    No need to insult someone for trying to help.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2012-12-02 at 05:15 AM.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigzumzah View Post
    He linked normal bottle, not heroic captain correction.
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc...sults_doc.html assuming you're using DoC, bottle is still better, so relic is still wrong, regardless.

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