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  1. #681
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    That would depend on how many ticks of the unbuffed Rake will go off before being reapplied with a buffed Rake.

    Or are you starting to get into a discussion of using Rake as a quicker CP gain?

  2. #682
    I was just attempting to clarify what I thought was a misunderstanding. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.


    It seems he's wondering if refreshing at 9 seconds is a gain or loss? And if it would be better to wait longer? Maybe I'm the confused / confusing one.

  3. #683
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    I was just attempting to clarify what I thought was a misunderstanding. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.
    It seems he's wondering if refreshing at 9 seconds is a gain or loss? And if it would be better to wait longer? Maybe I'm the confused / confusing one.
    If you are simply refreshing just to refresh....it is a dps loss.
    There are deeper thoughts behind this though. Why are you trying to refresh with 9 seconds remaining? Is PS about to run out and you need more CP? Are you trying to desync with SR or Thrash? To give a complete answer, we/I need to know the entire situation behind it to more deeply analyze what is going on.

  4. #684
    I have no idea. A guy a few posts above my first one was asking. I guess we'll wait for him to chime back in.

  5. #685
    I know back during Dragon Soul it was a DPS increase to refresh a Rake with a duration of 9 seconds or less with a Tiger's Fury Rake. I'm curious if that is still the same thought process if your Rake only has a Savage Roar buff.

    So to line it out.

    Case 1: I apply a Rake that is only buffed with Savage Roar Six seconds later Tiger's Fury comes off Cool Down, do I reapply Rake now that I have the Tiger's Fury buff or do i let it continue to tick for the next 9 seconds?

    Case 2: I apply a Rake only buffed with Savage Roar six seconds Later I have 4 CP and use a HT to gain the DoC buff do I refresh rake before I use Rip?

    Case 3: I apply a Rake that is only buffed with Savage Roar six seconds later I have 4 CP and use a HT to gain the DoC and pop TF buff do I refresh rake with the three buffs or do I shred before applying the obvious Rip?

    I'm basically wondering if it is still the right thing to do to clip your rake with a buffed version of the rake 6 seconds into the duration. Also I believe it was Mihir that came up with that number back during Cata, I could be wrong but I do remember reading about it here.

  6. #686
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cayssaris View Post
    Case 1: I apply a Rake that is only buffed with Savage Roar Six seconds later Tiger's Fury comes off Cool Down, do I reapply Rake now that I have the Tiger's Fury buff or do i let it continue to tick for the next 9 seconds?.
    Yes, It would be a DPS lost having Rake down waiting for TF and it will be a DPS lost not refreshing it with TF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cayssaris View Post
    Case 2: I apply a Rake only buffed with Savage Roar six seconds Later I have 4 CP and use a HT to gain the DoC buff do I refresh rake before I use Rip?
    Yes it will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cayssaris View Post
    Case 3: I apply a Rake that is only buffed with Savage Roar six seconds later I have 4 CP and use a HT to gain the DoC and pop TF buff do I refresh rake with the three buffs or do I shred before applying the obvious Rip?
    You would obviously Rake as well.


    This is for you and others understand the strength of Rake. It is when you'll increase the damage by 15% or more just reapplying... Now you may wonder How do i know how much % i'll increase the damage with? Here you got a thread from Fluiddruid.net where it is a really good guy that shares a WeakAura export he made for Bleed Ratios. http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4446
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  7. #687
    There are two reasons why you'd want to clip a rake early (outside of obvious encounter scenarios):
    1. The difference between the damage of your current rake and then damage of a new rake (over the total of the dot's duration) would be larger than the damage of a shred that could be executed in it's place.
    2. The amount of damage your rake will do is far greater than the damage it would do if you were to refresh it in the near future.

    These two things can be boiled down more simply to:
    1. You have more damage buffs up than when you applied the rake that is already on the target.
    2. You have many more damage buffs up than you will when you have to refresh your rake in the near future.

    The first concept is relatively straight forward, since Rake does such a high amount of damage over it's duration (see the graph Etapicx posted above), as a rule of thumb, it's a DPS gain to refresh your Rake if you have 1 proc more than you did when you last applied your Rake (of course they need to be powerful enough procs for it to be justifiable). The exact threshold that Leaf and I used for the SimulationCraft script over at Fluid Druid as well as the Ovale script is 12%, but technically this value will variable depending on your gear (especially on how much mastery you have more than anything) but not enough for it to matter much.

    The second concept is a bit more complex, but there's two main scenarios where it's worth keeping it in mind:
    • Since Dream of Cenarius is a buff that is not on-demand and of limited availability, it's ok to refresh your rake if you have a DoC charge as long as it's not making the Rake weaker than it already is. This is because you're generally not able to guarantee that you'll have a DoC charge available for a Rake when the Rake is about to fall off.
    • If your rake isn't far from expiring and you're about to go from a large amount of procs to a small amount or no procs. Threshold varies depending on how drastic the difference is between the before and after. This is pretty straightforward, but hard to catch. For example, you'll probably want to do this at the end of your opener when all of your procs are about to wear off, regardless of the duration left on Rake.


    These are the SimulationCraft action list conditionals we use to represent these 2 ideas:
    Code:
    actions.doc+=/rake,if=target.time_to_die-dot.rake.remains>3&dot.rake.remains<6.0&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.up&dot.rake.multiplier<=tick_multiplier
    actions.doc+=/rake,if=target.time_to_die-dot.rake.remains>3&tick_multiplier%dot.rake.multiplier>1.12
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-01-25 at 01:45 PM.

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  8. #688
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    For those whom have been looking at my Power Auras i'll be fixing them tonight and make abit more, I'll also give an whole export and one for each. I'll be using Pastebin because apperently they break when you just write them within the CODE []
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
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  9. #689
    Putting them in code tags works just fine but the code tags on MMO-C make really really long text strings very hard to copy so the errors you hear people complain about are probably them (understandably) failing to copy and paste them correctly. That said pastebin is still probably the better choice.

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  10. #690
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    I never had someone complaining more them stupid me imported same aura twice... However i was probably failing to import them myself since i made a reinstallation of my pc to get windows 8 so i've been fixing my UI the last couple of days and i knew something was missing.
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
    Why?
    He will find an easy way to do it.


    I'm schizophrenic and alone... at least I got each other

  11. #691
    Nice little update for us:
    Druid
    - We are reverting Cyclone having shared diminishing returns with other forms of crowd control. While we are keeping the cooldown of Cyclone cast by Feral druids in order to make Predatory Swiftness CC less dominant, we are lowering the cooldown to 20 sec from 30 sec.

  12. #692
    How could they get the nerf THIS wrong?! o.O

    Edit: yes I do realize that it's a test realm. But I just wonder why they go to the opposite extreme before they actually try to find a sweetspot.
    Last edited by Karlzone; 2013-01-26 at 03:15 AM.

  13. #693
    Because they test whatever they want on PTR because it's a test realm?

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  14. #694
    Constant Insta-Clone was out of control. It's the only CC in the game that you must trinket to get out of. Something had to give. With the lack of PS interacting w/ Cyclone we can now use it for more heals and roots, which isn't a bad thing. Cutting our 'old' CD to 20 seconds is a decent middle ground. The lack of DR with almost every CC in the game gives us our options back in terms of comp. We can't have the burst *and* control, in most cases it is one or the other. They are letting us now have a decent amount of both instead of removing it like the old solution seemed. We will still have an instant clone w/ Nature's Swiftness, if you take the talent.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    The first concept is relatively straight forward, since Rake does such a high amount of damage over it's duration (see the graph Etapicx posted above), as a rule of thumb, it's a DPS gain to refresh your Rake if you have 1 proc more than you did when you last applied your Rake (of course they need to be powerful enough procs for it to be justifiable). The exact threshold that Leaf and I used for the SimulationCraft script over at Fluid Druid as well as the Ovale script is 12%, but technically this value will variable depending on your gear (especially on how much mastery you have more than anything) but not enough for it to matter much.
    Would you recommend the script and ovale for new ferals?
    Or would good ol' learning be better?

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Would you recommend the script and ovale for new ferals?
    Or would good ol' learning be better?
    As feral OS I find that the combination of DroodFocus with FeralByNight to be the best. I dislike that Ovale has no "next predicted move" and DF is pretty good after you customise it and disable the bloat you don't need.

    As a side note I would like to ask if Rake x5 then FB is better than Rake x1, Mangle x4 then FB for HotW (in Boomkin spec) for: a) With agility weapon and b)Without

  17. #697
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    I think mangle is better becase you dont have mastery buffing your bleeds
    Last edited by Elunedra; 2013-02-03 at 06:11 PM.
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  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Would you recommend the script and ovale for new ferals?
    Or would good ol' learning be better?
    Yes, highly recommended. You don't have to keep it forever if you don't want but I guarantee it will help you learn some of the subtleties of the rotation far more than trying to learn it on your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    As feral OS I find that the combination of DroodFocus with FeralByNight to be the best. I dislike that Ovale has no "next predicted move" and DF is pretty good after you customise it and disable the bloat you don't need.
    Leafkiller's script has a "predictive rotation" box (not sure if it's enabled by default) that's quite helpful, but it's not as simple as "press this button next", that's a lot harder to calculate when you've got a zillion conditionals in the action list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    As a side note I would like to ask if Rake x5 then FB is better than Rake x1, Mangle x4 then FB for HotW (in Boomkin spec) for: a) With agility weapon and b)Without
    Elunedra is correct, direct damage of Rake is nothing compared to Mangle if you don't have mastery. A feral has anywhere up to 90% increased bleed damage which increases the direct damage of the Rake.

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  19. #699
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    an other question about mastery, i currently got like 72% raid buffed
    and i began to wonder with mastery increasing the DPE of our Rake, Rip and Trash

    There should also be a poin where Trash is worth keeping up even if you dont proc a OOC, i gues this is when the DPE of Trash get higher then Shred, but then shred also gives a combo ponit wich Tash doesnt

    so at what % of mastery is it worth keeping trash up even if you dontget an OOC proc,
    and or what what % of mastery is it worth to use Rake as a combo point generator move

    i gues those levels of mastery wont be reachable but it i got me wondering
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  20. #700
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    an other question about mastery, i currently got like 72% raid buffed
    and i began to wonder with mastery increasing the DPE of our Rake, Rip and Trash

    There should also be a poin where Trash is worth keeping up even if you dont proc a OOC, i gues this is when the DPE of Trash get higher then Shred, but then shred also gives a combo ponit wich Tash doesnt

    so at what % of mastery is it worth keeping trash up even if you dontget an OOC proc,
    and or what what % of mastery is it worth to use Rake as a combo point generator move

    i gues those levels of mastery wont be reachable but it i got me wondering
    What gear are you in? I'm at 86% mastery raid buffed and I do notice a DPS increase when keeping thrash up. Would be nice to know though at what point does it become a flat out dps increase to use it at 50 energy. I can't imagine my mastery would get too much higher, 90% seems around the max you could get.
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