1. #2081
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    The potential gain is poor though. Rune is our best in slot right now because the strength of the proc scales so well with gear; Inversely, when you scale your gear down massively the strength of the proc becomes complete trash.
    I guess I didn't downplay the proc's strength enough, but I did intend to convey that the gain is poor. I figured people were more concerned about the huge execution hindrance the trinket causes at low gear levels.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  2. #2082
    Progressing on spoils tonight HC, Would you recommend DOC or HOTW for it? also same question for Thok? cheers lads.

  3. #2083
    Quote Originally Posted by Tachyne View Post
    Progressing on spoils tonight HC, Would you recommend DOC or HOTW for it? also same question for Thok? cheers lads.
    Depends on which strategy you're using. On 25man with 2 big ones I'd go DoC. Sooner or later you'll approach a mark where aoe degenerates to whoring like on Tortos bats so the only important DPS aspect becomes the time you need to kill Big and Medium ones. For 10man HotW might be useful for a tranq on Mogu side, especially if you don't have multidotters for statues. On thok stick with DoC. Sync your 2nd berserk with bat aoe.

  4. #2084
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    The potential gain is poor though. Rune is our best in slot right now because the strength of the proc scales so well with gear; Inversely, when you scale your gear down massively the strength of the proc becomes complete trash.
    Yeah I found it to decrease my dps when it procced. The bleed damage increase was something like 5-10%, which isn't worth it at all.
    How does the CDR trinket work in proving grounds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tachyne View Post
    Progressing on spoils tonight HC, Would you recommend DOC or HOTW for it? also same question for Thok? cheers lads.
    If you are 10 man I would use HotW. The added ability to bleed cleave and react to trinkets really does help. Using HotW and throwing healing touch procs on people during the last boss is very helpful. It depends on if you open mediums during the bosses though. We didn't and I found everything besides the bosses to die before DoC was really powerful. However you should use the cooldown reduction trinket if you have it.1

    On thok I think DoC is better. I personally did not use it because we weren't really hurting for more damage, but I think that was a mistake.

  5. #2085
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Thanks for the CM/PG gearing tips. I can restore a lot of the gear you mentioned so really no need to farm it (which is always a plus). I've watched a few videos of people applying a 2-3 CP Rip on things, which I tried and seems to work but I can't do it without thinking about it...I normally get 5cps (which in most cases is a waste it seems) and then I realize. Having to change the way you play seems odd.
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

  6. #2086
    For Thok DoC is a no brainer, unless you're carrying healers and have a Devo or something, but meh.

    HotW is very good on spoils in both 10 and 25 if your healers need the boost, it does heal everyone on your side in both cases which means you tranqing = everyone living, no matter what. DoC isn't going to be super useful on anything but the larges, and during progression you're probably wiping to people dying not to the hard DPS check, and your minor contribution via going DoC for larges isn't going to fix that.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-12-16 at 02:08 AM.

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  7. #2087
    Small question.
    Was feral more/less viable in 5.3/5.2 than 5.4?
    I played very casual then.
    Last edited by mmokri; 2013-12-16 at 01:18 PM.

  8. #2088
    Trinket question: Heroic AoC sims about 10k higher than HTF Renatakis for me (I might have screwed it up somehow, Im not good with sims), but I dont know how Renatakis is modeled in Catus. Do you guys think that Renatakis might still give higher dps (the other trinket is H RoR) than AoC? I feel it might, but havent had a chance to test it in the raid yet. It would be two rppm trinkets instead of rppm+icd which means more Rakes/Rips could benefit from procs, also on most fights I found is impossible to get a proper BitW Rip out due to ICD on AoC not lining up with pretty much anything.
    Long story short: H AoC vs HTF Renatakis?

  9. #2089
    Quote Originally Posted by greez View Post
    Trinket question: Heroic AoC sims about 10k higher than HTF Renatakis for me (I might have screwed it up somehow, Im not good with sims), but I dont know how Renatakis is modeled in Catus. Do you guys think that Renatakis might still give higher dps (the other trinket is H RoR) than AoC? I feel it might, but havent had a chance to test it in the raid yet. It would be two rppm trinkets instead of rppm+icd which means more Rakes/Rips could benefit from procs, also on most fights I found is impossible to get a proper BitW Rip out due to ICD on AoC not lining up with pretty much anything.
    Long story short: H AoC vs HTF Renatakis?
    ofc it is outweight there is no reason blizzard leave ToT trinket > SoO(stupid exception RoR as it scales, Renataki not)
    no question, switch it, especially you have heroic version
    if you care about rankings then you need a multistrike trinket from Shamans it have less icd on it
    Last edited by Zstr; 2013-12-16 at 01:51 PM.

  10. #2090
    Quote Originally Posted by mmokri View Post
    Small question.
    Was feral more/less viable in 5.3/5.2 than 5.4?
    I played very casual then.
    It was viable and really good during 5.3/5.3, but being a melee and not a rogue was counting against ferals in 10 mans quite a bit. Good ferals would still top meters on those single targets. In 5.4 feral pretty much blows all other dps out of the water on single target, but I would imagine that you know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by greez View Post
    Trinket question: Heroic AoC sims about 10k higher than HTF Renatakis for me (I might have screwed it up somehow, Im not good with sims), but I dont know how Renatakis is modeled in Catus. Do you guys think that Renatakis might still give higher dps (the other trinket is H RoR) than AoC? I feel it might, but havent had a chance to test it in the raid yet. It would be two rppm trinkets instead of rppm+icd which means more Rakes/Rips could benefit from procs, also on most fights I found is impossible to get a proper BitW Rip out due to ICD on AoC not lining up with pretty much anything.
    Long story short: H AoC vs HTF Renatakis?
    H AoC is honestly quite a bit better. Your execute rip is indeed going to be lower (in general), but having TF on a lot more rips (and the synergy with 4 piece) makes up for that. It also helps target switching, aoe and bleed cleaving a lot.

    Btw Dark shaman trinket is RPPM.

  11. #2091
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    Btw Dark shaman trinket is RPPM.
    I know, but it didnt drop for us yet, 3 rogues coined WF one though, rng loves ferals.

  12. #2092
    Lads. From a Dps point of view, what bosses in SoO would you consider HOTW to be a dps increase over DOC? cheers fallers

  13. #2093
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    It was viable and really good during 5.3/5.3, but being a melee and not a rogue was counting against ferals in 10 mans quite a bit. Good ferals would still top meters on those single targets. In 5.4 feral pretty much blows all other dps out of the water on single target, but I would imagine that you know this.
    As I've seen with my guild's progression in SoO, the main reason a Feral was sat was either our strat required a certain number of ranged, and the melee spots were taken by melee with raid cooldowns. Yes, our Ferals did great damage, but if survival was our concern versus DPS checks, they were sat almost by default. Actually, if my memory serves me correctly, all our Ferals were sat for our first heroic kills from Malkorok through Garrosh. I'm not saying it's fair or this happens with everyone, but I think it's more common than not. It's less to do about Feral damage and more to do about the "raid cooldown arms race." To exemplify this mantra, for repeat kills our Ferals replace Hunters, as there is no loss of raid cooldowns.

    Again, this is just what happens with my guild, but I highly doubt this is isolated to just my guild. I'd like to see less raid cooldowns across DPSers to prevent situations like this, as I believe it's gotten a bit out of control.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  14. #2094
    Quote Originally Posted by Tachyne View Post
    Lads. From a Dps point of view, what bosses in SoO would you consider HOTW to be a dps increase over DOC? cheers fallers
    Every boss. HotW is going to be better regardless if you don't know how to use DoC properly though. Top ranks exist with both talents so it's really not as important as you seem to think judging from your past few posts. Play whatever talent you are better at but seriously look into learning DoC.

  15. #2095
    The Patient
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    Glurp's post above answered a similar question to mine, going to ask anyway though in case it's different.

    Basically i'm using DoC with a 502 rune and a 476 bottle, I'm very sloppy with DoC. Considering that i'm not properly using DoC, does it still pull ahead? By sloppy I mean some rip refreshes don't have the DoC buff as i'm not building CP fast enough, and I sometimes have to healing touch at 3cp. I'm thinking since i'm not using DoC properly hotw might be better?

  16. #2096
    Thanks for the answer glurp. next random Question. Is it worth using HOTW hurricane on the bats on HC thok? providing you can get it off without it being interrupted?

  17. #2097
    Blademaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tachyne View Post
    Thanks for the answer glurp. next random Question. Is it worth using HOTW hurricane on the bats on HC thok? providing you can get it off without it being interrupted?
    Only if you have a nice spell power weapon. Assuming you don't oneshot Thok, you can use Hurricane one attempt and see for yourself if it's worth for you. Keep in mind that you must have Rip & Rake on the boss and Thrash on the bats and use Tiger's Fury if it's available before you use Hurricane.

  18. #2098
    Quote Originally Posted by Tachyne View Post
    Thanks for the answer glurp. next random Question. Is it worth using HOTW hurricane on the bats on HC thok? providing you can get it off without it being interrupted?
    Maybe if you're wiping to bats, but DPS wise Dream of Cenarius is extraordinarily good on that fight, more so than most. If you're following the boss around like you probably should be as feral, that Dream of Cenarius buff is going to affect a significantly higher portion of your attacks and your DoTs than it would on a normal fight. It also emphasizes your execute which is a great strength for us on that fight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspectsftw View Post
    Glurp's post above answered a similar question to mine, going to ask anyway though in case it's different.

    Basically i'm using DoC with a 502 rune and a 476 bottle, I'm very sloppy with DoC. Considering that i'm not properly using DoC, does it still pull ahead? By sloppy I mean some rip refreshes don't have the DoC buff as i'm not building CP fast enough, and I sometimes have to healing touch at 3cp. I'm thinking since i'm not using DoC properly hotw might be better?
    Rip refreshes without DoC and "not building CP fast enough" will happen to you even if you're playing perfectly, it's quite possible you just aren't comfortable with what DoC is actually achieving for you at your gear level, like you're looking for some magical way to DoC buff every single finisher even though it isn't possible.

    If you can use every PS buff (don't let them expire) and get all of the DoCs onto the finisher when your CP and energy allowed you to do so then you're probably playing it decently at least. Beyond that it's just maximizing pooling so that you can make those things happen more often and that's pretty much it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Every boss. HotW is going to be better regardless if you don't know how to use DoC properly though. Top ranks exist with both talents so it's really not as important as you seem to think judging from your past few posts. Play whatever talent you are better at but seriously look into learning DoC.
    Oversimplifying things a bit much. DoC performed decently (as described above) will beat HotW pretty handily, you don't need to be perfect at it.

    DoC is also not clearcut better than HotW for DPS on every single encounter, depending on your strategy and your personal role in the encounter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    As I've seen with my guild's progression in SoO, the main reason a Feral was sat was either our strat required a certain number of ranged, and the melee spots were taken by melee with raid cooldowns. Yes, our Ferals did great damage, but if survival was our concern versus DPS checks, they were sat almost by default. Actually, if my memory serves me correctly, all our Ferals were sat for our first heroic kills from Malkorok through Garrosh. I'm not saying it's fair or this happens with everyone, but I think it's more common than not. It's less to do about Feral damage and more to do about the "raid cooldown arms race." To exemplify this mantra, for repeat kills our Ferals replace Hunters, as there is no loss of raid cooldowns.

    Again, this is just what happens with my guild, but I highly doubt this is isolated to just my guild. I'd like to see less raid cooldowns across DPSers to prevent situations like this, as I believe it's gotten a bit out of control.
    Some good points, but perhaps depending on our safe your guild is playing it, an exceptional feral can quite well earn their raid spot as a melee based on damage alone. We really don't need more raid utility than we have to be viable, if we got any more then we would automatically be the best melee DPS by far.

    Edit: To elaborate since I get the feeling someone will end up contesting this, some suggestions that on their own aren't really huge changes:

    New glyph that makes our Barkskin (or SI? either way) a passive 10% damage reduction.
    Tranquility now heals for as much as HotW Tranquility currently does as baseline and HotW no longer increases healing done.

    There, neither of those changes are particularly unreasonable on their own, but if they made them then we would clearcut be the best melee DPS, or at least good enough to never get sat for anything.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-12-17 at 06:14 AM.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
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  19. #2099
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Some good points, but perhaps depending on our safe your guild is playing it, an exceptional feral can quite well earn their raid spot as a melee based on damage alone. We really don't need more raid utility than we have to be viable, if we got any more then we would automatically be the best melee DPS by far.
    It pretty much does boil down to how the guild deals with the roster. While the utility that Ferals do bring is useful (and I personally think Ferals are awesome at personal survivability to boot), the same utility can be brought by moonkins/resto/guardians... which is likely a determining factor for bringing a Feral if you have a choice beyond pure DPS output. I still think Blizz did a disservice to the melee DPS community when they gave a DR component to Smoke Bomb for rogues, as I believe it set a bad precedent for making a class/spec more "viable." I just don't see the line where Blizz says enough is enough in terms of handing out raid CDs like candy.

    If Blizz keeps going in this direction, Ferals might need some loving as you described. Regardless, I'd rather see the whole raid utility scaled back a bit across all classes/specs to encourage bringing a player in for their ability to perform/DPS.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  20. #2100
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    As I've seen with my guild's progression in SoO, the main reason a Feral was sat was either our strat required a certain number of ranged, and the melee spots were taken by melee with raid cooldowns. Yes, our Ferals did great damage, but if survival was our concern versus DPS checks, they were sat almost by default. Actually, if my memory serves me correctly, all our Ferals were sat for our first heroic kills from Malkorok through Garrosh. I'm not saying it's fair or this happens with everyone, but I think it's more common than not. It's less to do about Feral damage and more to do about the "raid cooldown arms race." To exemplify this mantra, for repeat kills our Ferals replace Hunters, as there is no loss of raid cooldowns.

    Again, this is just what happens with my guild, but I highly doubt this is isolated to just my guild. I'd like to see less raid cooldowns across DPSers to prevent situations like this, as I believe it's gotten a bit out of control.
    As long as you don't have far too many melee I cannot imagine an additional rogue (or any other melee dps for that matter) or hunter being better than a feral for any boss past spoils besides paragons. You are far higher progressed than I and as such pure numbers should count far more?!
    Malkorok is single target and feral has a plethora of cooldowns plus dispersion/bubble, Thok is pretty much the best fights for ferals, Having a feral on blackfuse only means that a ranged needs to do belt in stead of that one dps and Garrosh is a pure single target dps race with adds and downtime. That sounds perfect for feral.

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