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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    Is that haste pulls ahead of crit or do we just have shitloads of haste on our gear?
    At first glance I'd say Haste actually gets a bit devalued (due to the Rip buff). For the same reason Mastery should become even better while Crit is more or less unaffected. So I assume it's because of shitloads of Haste on gear...

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 11:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Haste pulls ahead of all secondaries (and AP and Str). Currently it seems the goal is to get your haste as high as you possibly can while keeping your mastery at least 1 point higher.
    Hm, ok. I haven't done any simulations yet. What change triggered this?

  2. #782
    Rune of Re-Origination is craaazy powerful and the uptime is increased by your haste (because of how RPPM works) in addition to the fact that you also have a 2nd trinket, your weapon enchant, and the legendary meta gem that all scale with haste as well. Having mastery as your highest stat is important for the proc from Rune to be so good.

    Rune of Re-Origination also has an obvious effect of (quite drastically) increasing the value of your less favorable stats as they are turned into your highest stat for a portion of the fight (at double the rate). The more haste you have, the more often that haste is mastery and not haste.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-02-21 at 10:24 AM.

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  3. #783
    The % crit we gain from gear is minimal, im almost fully bis and crit gives me about 7%, and thats with me forging haste to crit, so losing that when rune procs is more then okay, and haste doesn't affect our bleeds (and we don't need the trinket to proc when its already proced) so losing that is also fine.

    Cant wait to give it a go on the PTR now with the rip buff.

  4. #784
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    The problem with this trinket, is it makes the optimal DoC rotation, next to impossible. Was trying to get it right on PTR but I found myself, more often then not, refreshing a 12 second rip because rune trinket had procced a ton of mastery and applying a new rip would have been an obvious DPS increase.

    As much as this will most likely be BiS, in it's current state, I'm still in the state of mind that this is a badly designed trinket. I can see this been needed by warriors also (for the crit side of it) which is also awkward. Thought the days of str users needing on our items were over when they realized the fault they made with the agi polearm from spirit kings..
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  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by razorback07 View Post
    The problem with this trinket, is it makes the optimal DoC rotation, next to impossible. Was trying to get it right on PTR but I found myself, more often then not, refreshing a 12 second rip because rune trinket had procced a ton of mastery and applying a new rip would have been an obvious DPS increase.
    Uhh, what? How does getting a new piece of gear that changes the optimal rotation make the old "optimal DoC rotation, next to impossible". That old rotation is already by definition suboptimal so why are complaining about it being impossible to execute?

    The trinket in it's current incarnation will most certainly change how the spec plays, and if clipping a bleed for a DPS gain because it's the optimal thing to do feels wrong to you can either deal with it or not use the trinket.

    Quote Originally Posted by razorback07 View Post
    As much as this will most likely be BiS, in it's current state, I'm still in the state of mind that this is a badly designed trinket. I can see this been needed by warriors also (for the crit side of it) which is also awkward. Thought the days of str users needing on our items were over when they realized the fault they made with the agi polearm from spirit kings..
    They will make it only proc for agi users if it's an issue. The already made 1 caster trinket and 1 strength trinket only proc for their respective users for that exact reason.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-02-21 at 01:39 PM.

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  6. #786
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Uhh, what? How does getting a new piece of gear that changes the optimal rotation make the old "optimal DoC rotation, next to impossible". That old rotation is already by definition suboptimal so why are complaining about it being impossible to execute?
    Not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

    Think its a little ignorant to bring up the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument, considering how much of a dps gain it will most likely be.
    Last edited by Moosie; 2013-02-21 at 01:49 PM.
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  7. #787
    My point is
    Quote Originally Posted by razorback07 View Post
    but I found myself, more often then not, refreshing a 12 second rip because rune trinket had procced a ton of mastery and applying a new rip would have been an obvious DPS increase.
    you said it yourself, you did it because it was an obvious DPS increase. If you feel you're making the optimal choice why does it bother you so much?

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  8. #788
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    My point is

    you said it yourself, you did it because it was an obvious DPS increase. If you feel you're making the optimal choice why does it bother you so much?
    Because, like we have seen in the past, they add gimik items to the game, on the principle "they think it is a good idea" and not looking how it will effect, not only other classes, but whole aspects of the game.

    Take the Vial of shadows trinket that dropped in Dragon soul, a prime example of them not thinking. Anyone, could have seen that it would be overpowered, not only in PvE but as well in PvP to the point it was 1 shotting people, they later changed the trinket to proc 3 times as more but 3 times less damage, it was still overpowered. If they had stepped back for just 5 minutes, and looked at the game as a whole, and not just 1-2 specs, it would be a lot better in terms of game design. They could have easily just set it to a specific amount of damage, and not have it scale with AP as much as it did.

    I can almost be certain that this trinket was probably designed for a specific spec. There is absolutely no way clipping a 12 second dot is good game design.
    Last edited by Moosie; 2013-02-21 at 02:01 PM.
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  9. #789
    I don't see how the Vial example has anything to do with it. Vial was a trinket that was good because the damage was tuned competitvely, and in PvP because the damage was caused in a bursty fashion. Vial was completely brainless.

    Rune is a trinket that actually encourages you to think and adapt your play to get use out of that, how is that bad game design?

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  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    I don't see how the Vial example has anything to do with it. Vial was a trinket that was good because the damage was tuned competitvely, and in PvP because the damage was caused in a bursty fashion. Vial was completely brainless.

    Rune is a trinket that actually encourages you to think and adapt your play to get use out of that, how is that bad game design?
    There's no thinking in it, just press Rip when it procs. Making it let's say, a use proc imo would require much more of a brain as they you can pick and choose what to line it up with. I'm then not forced to clip freshly applied DoC rips. This is just more RNG that ferals don't need. Still annoyed about the 75% tier bonus...

    I hate use trinkets, I avoid them like the plague, but in this case, it seems like a much better option.
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  11. #791
    Having it be a use effect wouldn't involve any more thinking at all, if it was a 3 min CD you would sync it with Berserk, and if it wasn't you would sync it with TF and NS.

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  12. #792
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Having it be a use effect wouldn't involve any more thinking at all, if it was a 3 min CD you would sync it with Berserk, and if it wasn't you would sync it with TF and NS.
    Why would i sync it with berserk? I would avoid syncing it with berserk, since that's my burn, I would prefer to having them already up, and then berserk coming off CD so I can focus on getting as many FBs out as possible.
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  13. #793
    Because the amount of damage the proc nets you is directly related to how much energy you have throughout the course of the proc. If you use it without Berserk or TF you're going to get half (or even less) as many rakes off during the duration of the proc and you're just wasting damage.

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  14. #794
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    What Aggixx is on to is that the inital damage when you Rake a target is increased by Mastery if I'm not totally wrong hence why we would like to use the proc together with Berserk and TF because you'd had more Rakes during that period, I've slacked a bit so I haven't read the theorycrafting discussion on Fluiddruid.net so I'm just guessing.... I should stop do that lol.
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  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by razorback07 View Post
    Why would i sync it with berserk? I would avoid syncing it with berserk, since that's my burn, I would prefer to having them already up, and then berserk coming off CD so I can focus on getting as many FBs out as possible.
    Are you playing with DoC...?

    I think somethings going quite wrong with your rotation from reading this.

  16. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    What Aggixx is on to is that the inital damage when you Rake a target is increased by Mastery if I'm not totally wrong hence why we would like to use the proc together with Berserk and TF because you'd had more Rakes during that period, I've slacked a bit so I haven't read the theorycrafting discussion on Fluiddruid.net so I'm just guessing.... I should stop do that lol.
    Most likely as the game classes rake's straight up damage as bleed damage, that said, at the moment, rakes initial damage isn't even half that of shreds, I'm not 100% sure if the proc has been added onto the PTR yet (The 200% version) but I was only rolling about 14k (97% bleed damage) mastery when it procced.

    If your post is correct, you are saying it's better to spam rake during Berserk, then it is shred?

    On the PTR, the max crit I saw a rake do on a 10 minute dummy fight was 101k, I saw shreds in excess of 150k constantly. If the proc is still sat at 100% and needs to be upped to 200%, maybe rake would pull better, but shred will also be buffed quite a bit once we get the weapons. Am i missing something?
    Last edited by Moosie; 2013-02-21 at 07:31 PM.
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  17. #797
    If my math is correct, average damage in BiS gear without any procs:

    Shred: 74,366.13
    Rake w/ Rune active: 73,636.54
    Shred w/ Rune active: 69,880.20

    Rake costs 10% less energy.

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  18. #798
    why u thinking only about bleeds, melee white dmg is also a huge part of dps, and with this trinket it would go down not up , coz of mastery not affected it, but haste and crit is and it's going away, also reducing energy and combo points generation, also shred and fb out too
    to much disadvantage for rune trinket to be bis
    if damn rentaki doesn't give that huge expertise it could be nice one replacement
    Last edited by Zstr; 2013-02-22 at 03:45 AM.

  19. #799
    I wasn't providing numbers to prove the trinket is good, I already know that from the sims. Unless there is a massive bug in the sim, it is absolutely unquestionably BiS.

    Renataki's is already second BiS if you can use the expertise.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-02-22 at 05:33 AM.

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  20. #800
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    intresting i didnt consider shred actualy loosing value on proc


    anyway how does this work with the item upgrade system? it seems to me you can only upgrade the initial agility on it as the proc is pretty hard coded
    Last edited by Elunedra; 2013-02-22 at 12:34 PM.
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