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  1. #1861
    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    blame tanks to not keep aggro and don't rush, or don't pop cd till you sure it's tanked - simple rules
    It's quite the dps check so waiting much doesn't work. As for cd's they are being used on the big box which is pulled right after. My initial tiger's fury and procs should never be able to grant me aggro as much as happened yesterday. That's why I figured their aggro is weird.

  2. #1862
    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    blame tanks to not keep aggro and don't rush, or don't pop cd till you sure it's tanked - simple rules
    We normally have someone else open the 2nd box and have a hunter or rogue MD it to the other Tank so that the tank can keep agro on the one people open on and get trinket procs on.

  3. #1863
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    We normally have someone else open the 2nd box and have a hunter or rogue MD it to the other Tank so that the tank can keep agro on the one people open on and get trinket procs on.
    I do opened 2nd buff box myself, and helping tank opening boxes so he can just taunt and hold aggro,
    but I don't start attacking them, running back to other box add and let tank charge it after he opened first,
    as I'm no suicide kitty, dead dps don't do damage at all
    even if it's hurt my dps a very little,then others can safety do their job
    Last edited by Zstr; 2013-11-05 at 03:43 AM.

  4. #1864
    Anyone got any tips for doing the MOST damage on the heroic black fuse belt? I went trents and NV but is there a better alternative? My only job in this fight is belts so I don't care about sustained damage

    Logs: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...e&target=134.3

    my armory:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lfahoof/simple
    Last edited by Kitty Claws; 2013-11-07 at 04:23 AM.

  5. #1865
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Go DoC and SotF

    FoN bugs out with range issues and ends up doing less damage. If you have a Haromm's or TED, it would be better to use then AoC.

  6. #1866
    I was also tasked with blackfuse belt on heroic. I ended up with SotF and NV. Reason was that quite often our hunters whom were up on every belt needed that healing. Felines swiftness also provides an edge.

  7. #1867
    Alrighty there lads. Re guarding DOC, im sort of doing ok with it. However im finding it difficult to line up both charges so that i can use them on a rake and rip every time. ideally are you suppose to use both charges on a rip and a rake? or is it ok to use say 1 charge on rake then a filler or 1 charge on rip then a filler ect? i hope that makes sense. thanks lads

  8. #1868
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    You don't have to use every charge on Rip/Rake. As long as you have you last charge affected by either DoC or a trinket proc (assuming that proc is now gone) you shouldn't have to re-write it. Remember though, Thrash is really good for our single target, so if you can get a DoC Thrash out instead of a filler you will see a gain there.

  9. #1869
    Quote Originally Posted by Paloro View Post
    Remember though, Thrash is really good for our single target, so if you can get a DoC Thrash out instead of a filler you will see a gain there.
    Hmm, really good? Surely not. I sim ~3k DPS less with no Thrash use at all which is less than a percent. It is a slight DPS upgrade even in single target IF you use it correctly and not ending up delaying rips etc.

  10. #1870
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Hmm, really good? Surely not. I sim ~3k DPS less with no Thrash use at all which is less than a percent. It is a slight DPS upgrade even in single target IF you use it correctly and not ending up delaying rips etc.


    I need an update... How is SoO guys? How are we holding up to the other melee?

    Edit: Anything that is really crucial that i should add/remove to/from the first post?
    Last edited by Etapicx; 2013-11-07 at 08:26 PM.
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
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  11. #1871
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Hmm, really good? Surely not. I sim ~3k DPS less with no Thrash use at all which is less than a percent. It is a slight DPS upgrade even in single target IF you use it correctly and not ending up delaying rips etc.
    Thrash does about double my Mangle damage on a completely single target fight. 9% overall damage vs 4.5%

  12. #1872
    Quote Originally Posted by Paloro View Post
    Thrash does about double my Mangle damage on a completely single target fight. 9% overall damage vs 4.5%
    So? What matters is dps without thrash vs dps with thrash. There is of course an oppertunity cost for all that energy you spend on thrash.

    For you with thrash (these sims have around 84% uptime on thrash):


    Code:
    [DPS] = 414.2K
        Mean:   416018 +/- 684.51 (21646)
      Median:   414166
     25%/75%:   401.0K - 429.6K
     10%/90%:   390.2K - 444.5K
     Min/Max:   363.4K - 497.7K
    
    [Dense Damage Distribution]
    Name                                    #      Avg    Crit%     All%
    Rip                                 175.0   243427   49.89%   28.54%
    Rake                                175.1   210152   49.73%   24.66%
    Melee                               475.2    46028   52.05%   14.66%
    Thrash/Cat                          124.1    79796   51.92%    6.63%
    Multistrike                         232.7    36112    0.00%    5.63%
    Mangle                               44.4   151967   52.27%    4.52%
    Lightning Strike                     53.9   103855   51.84%    3.75%
    Flurry of Xuen                      200.9    27101   51.73%    3.65%
    Shred                                25.3   208719   53.58%    3.54%
    Ferocious Bite                       14.5   358130   77.95%    3.49%
    Stormlash                            10.8    86904   11.56%    0.63%
    Ravage                                1.0   430125  100.00%    0.29%
    and without thrash:

    Code:
    [DPS] = 408.9K
        Mean:   410895 +/- 662.57 (20952)
      Median:   408881
     25%/75%:   396.8K - 422.6K
     10%/90%:   386.1K - 438.6K
     Min/Max:   355.8K - 495.8K
    
    [Dense Damage Distribution]
    Name                                    #      Avg    Crit%     All%
    Rip                                 175.0   255937   49.73%   30.31%
    Rake                                176.6   213274   49.58%   25.49%
    Melee                               476.6    45959   51.92%   14.82%
    Mangle                               60.3   149341   52.06%    6.09%
    Multistrike                         215.2    38551    0.00%    5.61%
    Ferocious Bite                       19.8   373873   77.41%    5.01%
    Shred                                30.1   209416   53.42%    4.27%
    Lightning Strike                     54.0   103987   52.06%    3.80%
    Flurry of Xuen                      201.6    27045   51.83%    3.69%
    Stormlash                            10.5    87094   12.07%    0.62%
    Ravage                                1.0   430000  100.00%   0.29%
    for a difference of about 6k dps or 1.4%. But yes it is a slight dps increase if you can use it well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    What matters is dps not DPET. Link dps with thrash and without it instead.

    I mean, I agree with you. I try to keep thrash up myself: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ifufr...11038#Inferior
    It is a slight dps upgrade on single target if you use it well and not fuck up anything else due to spending your energy on thrash. That is a pretty big if though in my opinion especially if you are a bit new. But calling it a big damage poster just sticks a bit in my eyes. It is less of a damage boost than treants are over Sotf and a lot of people still chose to go sotf.
    Last edited by inferior2; 2013-11-07 at 09:39 PM.

  13. #1873
    As long as you have you last charge affected by either DoC or a trinket proc
    Hi paloro, thanks very much for trying to help me, and so quickly too, i'm really sorry and dont mean to sound stupid or rude but what do you mean by what i quoted above? i dont quiet understand it, do you mean that as long as 1 of the charges of DOC are used on a rip/rake or thrash, then thats ok? once again thanks you.

  14. #1874
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antefex View Post
    Hi paloro, thanks very much for trying to help me, and so quickly too, i'm really sorry and dont mean to sound stupid or rude but what do you mean by what i quoted above? i dont quiet understand it, do you mean that as long as 1 of the charges of DOC are used on a rip/rake or thrash, then thats ok? once again thanks you.
    I would imagine that your first question stemmed from the following situation:
    A trinket proc's and you cast HT from a PS proc. From there you proceed to apply a Rip/Rake. You just went from 2 DoC charges to 0, but now have another PS proc from using a finisher that consumed 5 cp. You cast HT again and are back up to 2 DoC charges. Where do you spend these charges? Well because your Rip was just cast with trinkets and DoC and your last Rake also contains DoC you have a bit of flexibility. If your trinkets are still up and you still are under TF, feel free to refresh Rake b/c you will be extending the amount of time this higher damaging ability will be up. If you don't have trinkets up though, I would typically spend these charges with 1 on Thrash and 1 on Mangle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    So? What matters is dps without thrash vs dps with thrash. There is of course an oppertunity cost for all that energy you spend on thrash.

    For you with thrash (these sims have around 84% uptime on thrash):

    But calling it a big damage poster just sticks a bit in my eyes. It is less of a damage boost than treants are over Sotf and a lot of people still chose to go sotf.
    What is the DoC uptime of Thrash in those sims? I'd venture to say that it is lower then what I regularly obtain in a raid.

    Being the #3 casted damage ability is pretty big. I'd rather mess up on a casted Mangle then a casted Thrash.
    Last I checked FoN was a 7k increase for myself in single target over SotF. So it is significant bonus to the rotation.

  15. #1875
    Quote Originally Posted by Paloro View Post

    Being the #3 casted damage ability is pretty big. I'd rather mess up on a casted Mangle then a casted Thrash.
    Last I checked FoN was a 7k increase for myself in single target over SotF. So it is significant bonus to the rotation.
    Maybe it is higher but that means your DoC uptime on rake/rip is lower. It wouldn't DoC a Mangle if it was more benefitial to DoC a Thrash. Being #3 of your casted spells doesn't say much since we basically got no other casted spell other than Rip and Rake that does any significant damage.

    The sim doesn't waste a single PS proc. There's been a lot of work on the action script for the sims by smart people. If I would chose between your feeling of how much extra dps thrash gives you and the sim, I must chose the sim. I feel like I have to say this again. I agree thrash is a dps win if you use it correctly. It just isn't such a big one I felt you made it be. However, everything add up in the end.

  16. #1876
    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Maybe it is higher but that means your DoC uptime on rake/rip is lower. It wouldn't DoC a Mangle if it was more benefitial to DoC a Thrash. Being #3 of your casted spells doesn't say much since we basically got no other casted spell other than Rip and Rake that does any significant damage.

    The sim doesn't waste a single PS proc. There's been a lot of work on the action script for the sims by smart people. If I would chose between your feeling of how much extra dps thrash gives you and the sim, I must chose the sim. I feel like I have to say this again. I agree thrash is a dps win if you use it correctly. It just isn't such a big one I felt you made it be. However, everything add up in the end.
    buffed trash with DoC and RoR trinket is huge and much more then mangle/shred attack, so it's even better to use without Omen proc meanwhile instead of mangle if your energy/cp allow you to do it without hurting rip/rake uptime

  17. #1877
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Maybe it is higher but that means your DoC uptime on rake/rip is lower. It wouldn't DoC a Mangle if it was more benefitial to DoC a Thrash. Being #3 of your casted spells doesn't say much since we basically got no other casted spell other than Rip and Rake that does any significant damage.

    The sim doesn't waste a single PS proc. There's been a lot of work on the action script for the sims by smart people. If I would chose between your feeling of how much extra dps thrash gives you and the sim, I must chose the sim. I feel like I have to say this again. I agree thrash is a dps win if you use it correctly. It just isn't such a big one I felt you made it be. However, everything add up in the end.
    Wasting a DoC proc....that would imply that you have downtime for 30 seconds (the duration of the proc). Of course it is not wasted, but the question at hand is what skills in your rotation do you want to buff with it. There are many fights in this tier that have more then 1 target. This amplifies the DPE of Thrash, but also doesn't detract from its single target capabilities.

    How does that mean that my DoC uptime on Rake/Rip is lower? If I use a DoC proc on Thrash after a Rip, I will still have another 2 DoC charges before my next finisher. Would you really choose to use both on Mangle instead of 1 on Thrash?

  18. #1878
    Quote Originally Posted by Paloro View Post
    Wasting a DoC proc....that would imply that you have downtime for 30 seconds (the duration of the proc). Of course it is not wasted, but the question at hand is what skills in your rotation do you want to buff with it. There are many fights in this tier that have more then 1 target. This amplifies the DPE of Thrash, but also doesn't detract from its single target capabilities.

    How does that mean that my DoC uptime on Rake/Rip is lower? If I use a DoC proc on Thrash after a Rip, I will still have another 2 DoC charges before my next finisher. Would you really choose to use both on Mangle instead of 1 on Thrash?
    First, I always said this was single target. Second, I never disagreed that I would rather DoC a Thrash over a Mangle. However, it might be worth overwriting a non DoC Rake with a DoC Rake instead of using the DoC on a Thrash.

    This discussion is moving away from what it was meant to be. You said thrash was a large single target boost. I showed with sim that it is about a 1.5% increase if you use it correctly. Whether that is large may of course vary who you ask.

  19. #1879
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    it might be worth overwriting a non DoC Rake with a DoC Rake instead of using the DoC on a Thrash.
    Who said it wouldn't be worth it? Obviously clipping a Rake stronger in single target is better then to use DoC charge on Thrash when Rake isn't DoC buffed. However how many rakes aren't DoC buffed nowadays? (if not stronger e.i buffed with everything else)
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  20. #1880
    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    Who said it wouldn't be worth it? Obviously clipping a Rake stronger in single target is better then to use DoC charge on Thrash when Rake isn't DoC buffed. However how many rakes aren't DoC buffed nowadays? (if not stronger e.i buffed with everything else)
    He seemed to imply that the only choice was between buffing a mangle and a thrash. I just said that overwriting the rake is also a possibility. How many rakes that aren't buffed? Happens often if you get a strong rake that falls off when you are at low CP. Of course it will be replaced quite soon by a buffed one.

    Anyway, I am not disagreeing with what is being said. If everything is good (i.e good SR dur, good Rip dur, strong rake up) then using your DoC charge on a Thrash is better than on a Mangle.

    However, none of this really matters. The "only" thing that matters for your end dps is if you happen to get a double trinket proc at 25%. Rest is just noise.

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