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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    No it had the highest percentage of players clear it, that's not the same as amount of players, something several people have tried to explain to you now.
    Exactly, a higher percentage of the players that played wow cleared that instance. It says nothing over more/less. Just percentages. Not to mention that I already showed you (the other guy, not the quotee) how easy it is to manipulate such a percentage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    1.8 million people cleared it. How many exactly do you believe cleared Kara?
    You're still missing the point....

    A greater percentage of the playerbase have cleared DS NOT IS EQUAL TO Cata has more raiders.

    That's all I personally want you to understand, but I feel like I'm explaining poetry to a 5 year old.

    And just so we get this straight.

    20% DS include LFR, normal mode and Heroic.
    Karazhan had one mode and it was NOT as easy as LFR, and quite frankly a little bit above DS normal mode.

    LFR = falling asleep
    Karazhan = be on the ball.

    Due to this difference in difficulty, you cannot compare statistics from that period with the current one. 5% sunwell means some people were really fucking good. 20% DS simply means a lot of people are capable of sleeping with their eyes open.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-10-04 at 05:29 PM.

  2. #182
    Take WoW for what it is and nothing more, please stop living in the past.. there's a reason WoW is where it is today.. maybe you should stop playing video games.. because all these whine threads is just nostalgia feelings.. god wow would be boring if we were back at TBC with the same mindset as today.. back then we DIDNT KNOW ANY BETTER..

    why the hell do you think Pacman was fun

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Exactly, a higher percentage of the players that played wow cleared that instance. It says nothing over more/less. Just percentages. Not to mention that I already showed you (the other guy, not the quotee) how easy it is to manipulate such a percentage.



    You're still missing the point....

    A greater percentage of the playerbase have cleared DS NOT IS EQUAL TO Cata has more raiders.

    That's all I personally want you to understand, but I feel like I'm explaining poetry to a 5 year old.

    And just so we get this straight.

    20% DS include LFR, normal mode and Heroic.
    Karazhan had one mode and it was NOT as easy as LFR, and quite frankly a little bit above DS normal mode.

    LFR = falling asleep
    Karazhan = be on the ball.

    Due to this difference in difficulty, you cannot compare statistics from that period with the current one. 5% sunwell means some people were really fucking good. 20% DS simply means a lot of people are capable of sleeping with their eyes open.
    Exactly. And yet, it's still only 20%. Considering Kara was far harder than LFR DS, how many people do you realistically think would have even gotten past that?
    Last edited by Shinzai; 2012-10-04 at 05:40 PM.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Exactly. And yet, it's still only 20%. Considering Kara was far harder than LFR DS, how many people do you realistically would have even gotten past that?
    Irrelevant to the point I've been trying to get across. You claimed, based on the 5 versus 20%, that cata has more raiders. Those statistics do not imply that. It may be derived from it, but only if all other options have been eliminated. Proof through exclusion, in a way.

    That said, I pray to god that all raiders eventually got Karazhan down (notice the all raiders part, that makes it easier to determine which group we are talking about) and it had better be 100% of all raiders in DS LFR as well. Anything else would be shameful.

    The thing is, there's 3 instances between Sunwell and Karazhan. If Karazhan equals DS normal+, wouldn't you consider that SW having a 5% finish and DS having a 20% finish, means that DS, comparatively speaking, actually has less of a completion rate than the, considered by some, ridiculously difficult, SWP?

    Edit: By which I purely mean, that if DS had been equally difficult to SW, it's likely to consider that far less than 5% in the current player base would have completed it.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-10-04 at 05:43 PM.

  5. #185
    The thing I loved most about WoW was the community. Being able to have fun with people you actually know and even care about.


    I feel like the WoW community has just gone down hill over time. Dead / Dying servers, and no guild loyalties...


    Now I don't blame blizzard for all of this, everyone is partly to blame.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    The thing I loved most about WoW was the community. Being able to have fun with people you actually know and even care about.


    I feel like the WoW community has just gone down hill over time. Dead / Dying servers, and no guild loyalties...


    Now I don't blame blizzard for all of this, everyone is partly to blame.
    Attunements have been touched on already, but to be honest, I think things like attunements were one of the best ways to find new friends. I'd take people along with me to instances, and they'd ask nicely (nicely!) if we can help with their attunement to whatever. I'd of course oblige, they'd thank me, and often enough, it would lead to further instances together. Sure, it may have been harder to find groups in the days before LFD and such, but I preferred it to the silent dungeon runs of modern WoW.

  7. #187
    The problem is that you have become jaded and will most probably never be able to get that feeling from WoW again. Same have happened to me. I still enjoy this game a great deal, but the feeling I got from seeing a kodo in Mulgore for the first time, or wiping on Lucifron for hours (lol) will sadly never come back.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    1.8 million people cleared it. How many exactly do you believe cleared Kara?
    I have no idea but I do know that if 19% of the players cleared Kara then 2.6 million players cleared it which is many more than 1.8 million clearing DS, the clear ration on Kara could be as low as 14% and still be above 1.8 million, this is why your assumptions based of the 20% clearing DS are faulty.
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Different game, different rules. By rule of thumb, if you didn't play a game on ultra hard, you suck. that said, it's the gear inflation that is such a turn-off, not several difficulties. I have a problem with the fact that 2 months from now, people will be running around in the gear that I actually had to put up a fight for and they didn't even lift a finger.

    Removal of attunements is not making a game more casual. It's taking the tedious out. It doesn't do anything with the gameplay.

    Improving class mechanics is not making the game more casual, it's improving the quality of the game.

    Did you do ICC HC 25 man before the buffs? I wonder.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-04 at 03:31 PM ----------



    Personally found it easier. ZG was released later on, but it's a 10 man instance with doable tactics. I could have placed it on par with MC, if that better suits your taste, but it's arguing over semantics. Quite a waste of time.

    [edit] could have been a 20 man instance now I mention it :P Oh how times change.
    ZG was always 20man MC was always easier than ZG tactics wise. There is no question about it. All of the fights were tank and spank with decursing. That was it. Major domo was a bit trickier as you had teleports shields and what not and rag was a good fight for the time. ZG on the other hand had lots of bosses with more than just tank and spank it really was.

    As for icc25 no, sadly I missed this I quit the game after totc which was just horrible. 10man heroic was easy 25 was easy until you hit anub and he was a brick wall. ulduar by comparison was a great raid on both 10man and 25man. The raiding in wrath 1st tier was easier than catas 1st tier by a mile. which is the best comparison for me to make. (Non heroic as there was only 3drake that was a hardmode in that tier for wrath)

    Also its not a different game different rules scenario it really isnt. Most games have difficulty levels for content this should be no different. Your problem is other people getting gear you feel they do not deserve. That really is sad im afraid. I don't care if someone has got a heroic piece of loot that I had to strive to get months later. Do you get angry when people go into MC/BWL when the content isnt current and get gear you used to wipe for all those years ago? It really is a silly argument.

  10. #190
    Can we stop with the TBC threads ? This is nostalgia plain and simple ..

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    ZG was always 20man MC was always easier than ZG tactics wise. There is no question about it. All of the fights were tank and spank with decursing. That was it. Major domo was a bit trickier as you had teleports shields and what not and rag was a good fight for the time. ZG on the other hand had lots of bosses with more than just tank and spank it really was.

    As for icc25 no, sadly I missed this I quit the game after totc which was just horrible. 10man heroic was easy 25 was easy until you hit anub and he was a brick wall. ulduar by comparison was a great raid on both 10man and 25man. The raiding in wrath 1st tier was easier than catas 1st tier by a mile. which is the best comparison for me to make. (Non heroic as there was only 3drake that was a hardmode in that tier for wrath)

    Also its not a different game different rules scenario it really isnt. Most games have difficulty levels for content this should be no different. Your problem is other people getting gear you feel they do not deserve. That really is sad im afraid. I don't care if someone has got a heroic piece of loot that I had to strive to get months later. Do you get angry when people go into MC/BWL when the content isnt current and get gear you used to wipe for all those years ago? It really is a silly argument.
    Aye ZG was 20 man, I was being retorical in my edit.

    As I said, from my point of view, MC and ZG are pretty much tied in difficulty, if only due to the fact that 20 out of 40 raidmembers were slackers, while 20 out of 20 weren't. I'm not argueing tacticwise, but as far as I recall;

    Batlady - tank and spank
    Venomsnake - tank and spank
    Mandokir - tank and spank
    spider - tank and spank
    panther - tank and spank

    Hell, none of the encounters were special. ZG was visually more appealing, had a better sense of humor, the encounters themselves were better designed, but in the end they still were tank and spank.

    And damn straight, I have a problem with other people getting my gear if they did nothing to get it That's a given.
    - Not from old expansion of course, although I never completed my Thunderfury. That still sort of hurts

  12. #192
    You didnt do much on boss movement (for sure)

    but you had far more concerning issues. like mandokir you had the watching debuff meaning people had to be careful not to do anything (including tanks sometimes unless you cheesed the encounter by bugging it out on the stairs)
    Spider boss you had the webbing and adds to deal with at parts of the fight wasnt really diffcult but harder than magmadar!
    Panther you had the phase changes where you had to pick her up fast or someone was getting gibbed.
    Batlady had the silences and bombs to deal with was not tank and spank as you had to move quite a bit.
    Vemon had a bit of movement was tank and spank.
    Tiger boss - far from tank and spank 3 adds all doing moves that had to be silenced phase 2 with the heavy damage pretty much a burn phase.
    The end boss it self really good fight with the mindcontrols and blood control.

    MC by comparison - luci tank and spank with decurse, magmadar avoid fire spank. gehennas tank and spank avoid reign of fire decurse. Garr tank /banish adds kill garr. Baron - wasnt really tank and spank to be fair avoiding aoe and bombs moving out of raid think you had to decurse ignite mana. shazz tank and spank decurse purge. sulfuron tank and spank with adds separated and dps'd down. golemag tank and spank. domo and rag are not really tank and spank fights.

    You really need to get over the fact people will go back and get gear from outdated raids. Personally I would like it so you have to clear 1 raid to move onto the next as a progression thing (which in mop has appeared again) not sure if it will continue with the next tier.

    Besides ZG for me was more fun as 40people like you say a lot could slack and get away with it, with only 20 players it was easier to wipe (with aq20 release that was quite hard for the first few weeks tbh great place buru was a brillaint encounter!)

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    You really need to get over the fact people will go back and get gear from outdated raids. Personally I would like it so you have to clear 1 raid to move onto the next as a progression thing (which in mop has appeared again) not sure if it will continue with the next tier.
    Doubt there are many that take issue with people getting gear from past tiers, the current design hands the gear out through nerfs while it's current though, something that reduces the reward for playing well.

    As far as clearing one raid before the next, that's linear raiding which we had in vanilla and BC, current design is segmented and as such can't require that.
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  14. #194
    Well at present it isnt segmented its linear. You need to clear mogu then fear then terrace. If they have that in place now it could be possible they will put it in for the next tier. I like it from a progression stance but if its not there I won't lose sleep over it as it may cause problems for guilds trying to get new members in that require x raid cleared etc.

    I have no issue with people clearing content and getting gear on current content through nerfs. It is part of the game im afraid. If you cleared the content and have it on farm and have the achievements to prove it then it is not an issue. I saw the same issues prop up in vanilla and tbc when people whined when guilds only clearing ZG could then clear MC in less time than they originally took as there were better gear upgrades available to them. In TBC same thing happened with badge gear and removal of attunements people could skip most of TK/SSC and jump into BT in the late part of the expansion.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Well at present it isnt segmented its linear. You need to clear mogu then fear then terrace. If they have that in place now it could be possible they will put it in for the next tier. I like it from a progression stance but if its not there I won't lose sleep over it as it may cause problems for guilds trying to get new members in that require x raid cleared etc.
    It's still segmented until they change how the different tiers interact.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I have no issue with people clearing content and getting gear on current content through nerfs. It is part of the game im afraid. If you cleared the content and have it on farm and have the achievements to prove it then it is not an issue.
    What's the point in it then? No one will run around looking at your achievement dates, as such it becomes less rewarding to try and accomplish things in the game same as it provides less motivation to try and beat it when all you need to do is wait for the nerfs, personally I think that is a big contributor to the subscription loss, people simply ask them self why bother to make the effort and as a consequence of that start to question why they subscribe in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    In TBC same thing happened with badge gear and removal of attunements people could skip most of TK/SSC and jump into BT in the late part of the expansion.
    That was one method to help people overcome old tiers, something that I don't see many complain about, I think they could have done it better than what they did and today it's even easier to solve those issues but as Blizzard moved away from linear progression and started with the mantra of, everyone must be able to see every bit of content and every difficulty setting through our help if they can't do it for them selfs, those solutions won't be implemented.
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  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It did happen. It's called Rift.

    I know you said Rift isn't as "smooth" but you are wrong. Rift is one the most complete and robust games currently running. The problem with Rift is twofold: 1. massive grind 2. very high system reqs.

    Rift doesn't run well on middle of the road PCs. Heck, it sorta doesn't run well on higher end PCs depending on the environment. Sometimes I get like 60fps on Ultra. Other times, I get like 12fsp on low settings...

    World of Warcraft can run on like an ipad. It's meant to service the lowest common denominator of PC gamers.

    If you have a top end PC, there is no doubt in my mind Rift is not bettered by any MMO on the market currently.
    As is common when I read Fencers’ comments, I completely agree with them.

    If you’re looking for the more traditional MMO experience that WoW moved away from at the launch of WotLK, then Rift is what you’re looking for assuming you have the specs to run it. WoW is simply aimed at too many people for all of them to be truly satisfied, and Trion aren’t hamstrung by such diverse demands.

    Don’t listen to naysayers who complain about Rift. It’s a great game, if that’s the type of game you’re looking for – easily the best of its type. What it doesn’t do is provide all the time killing activities that fit nicely into small chunks of down time and don’t really have any impact on your character, but can be fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  17. #197
    wow you really are hard to please?

    Future tiers MAY or maynot be linear. Going by cata and wrath it will probably go back to segmented. but at present it is linear for MOP which is nice.

    On point two its just an asumption, the big subscriber loss as you call it. There is no real hard numbers of the exact amount of people raiding. I doubt its as high as you think. The point of doing content when its released is the challenge. If you cant do it while its current and can only do it while it was nerfed thats not my problem. Get motivated or wait/get out tbh.

    Ill explain something to you which you seem to not even realise. You have only true linear progression in TBC, vanilla only had partial linear progression (forced progression) its a bit weird ill explain.

    TBC had quests forcing you to clear raids before you could move to the next.
    Vanilla/cata/wrath (with the exception of malygos) required no raids before to be cleared before you could clear the next. Only dungeon attunements for some raids.

    Vanilla had no real way of gearing a character outside of a raid that could enable you to complete later tiers (so if you quit and came back you had to be carried or work your way up) TBC added the badge system for heroics which helped with this. ZG/aq20 were designed as side raids but were proved to be very popular and they also helped some guilds clear some content as it provided some upgrades. So as you can see your "linear progression obsession" is flawed.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    When I saw someone in better gear, I knew they were better players or had a better guild. Today, not so much.

    Bluntly put, who cares? I rather take more content for me, than know that other random people get to do some super hardcore content I'll probably never bother with and have some special shinies to show for it.

    I don't admire WoW players (which is something you more or less imply with the gear and better guild comment), it's a game. Only a form of entertainment. There are plenty to people to admire in real life.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 01:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    wow you really are hard to please?

    Future tiers MAY or maynot be linear. Going by cata and wrath it will probably go back to segmented. but at present it is linear for MOP which is nice.

    On point two its just an asumption, the big subscriber loss as you call it. There is no real hard numbers of the exact amount of people raiding. I doubt its as high as you think. The point of doing content when its released is the challenge. If you cant do it while its current and can only do it while it was nerfed thats not my problem. Get motivated or wait/get out tbh.

    Ill explain something to you which you seem to not even realise. You have only true linear progression in TBC, vanilla only had partial linear progression (forced progression) its a bit weird ill explain.

    TBC had quests forcing you to clear raids before you could move to the next.
    Vanilla/cata/wrath (with the exception of malygos) required no raids before to be cleared before you could clear the next. Only dungeon attunements for some raids.

    Vanilla had no real way of gearing a character outside of a raid that could enable you to complete later tiers (so if you quit and came back you had to be carried or work your way up) TBC added the badge system for heroics which helped with this. ZG/aq20 were designed as side raids but were proved to be very popular and they also helped some guilds clear some content as it provided some upgrades. So as you can see your "linear progression obsession" is flawed.
    Indeed. I'd rather cut my balls with a razor than be forced to go back to vanilla WoW.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Ituhippi View Post
    Bluntly put, who cares? I rather take more content for me, than know that other random people get to do some super hardcore content I'll probably never bother with and have some special shinies to show for it.

    I don't admire WoW players (which is something you more or less imply with the gear and better guild comment), it's a game. Only a form of entertainment. There are plenty to people to admire in real life.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 01:40 PM ----------



    Indeed. I'd rather cut my balls with a razor than be forced to go back to vanilla WoW.
    I agree with you 100% People need to get over this "idolise people with epics" attitude. The only way to get an idea of someone is through an application (can tell you a bit about them on how they present them selves in their app) The other one is playing with them. they could have had the best GEAR in vanilla but turned out to be a really bad player who got carried or could be a GREAT player but was a total ass who was no good for your team.

  20. #200
    No, and that's a good thing. Just like we never will have another World/The 50's no matter how much old people spew their nostalgia and why it was SO much better and why people living back then were SO much smarter or harder workers or whatever.

    Get over it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 10:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ituhippi View Post
    Bluntly put, who cares? I rather take more content for me, than know that other random people get to do some super hardcore content I'll probably never bother with and have some special shinies to show for it.

    I don't admire WoW players (which is something you more or less imply with the gear and better guild comment), it's a game. Only a form of entertainment. There are plenty to people to admire in real life.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 01:40 PM ----------



    Indeed. I'd rather cut my balls with a razor than be forced to go back to vanilla WoW.
    Amen to this. And this is actually the attitude I believe that MOST WoW-players have. The ones with different views can be found here on forums, crying and whinging.

    I admire a lot of people...gamers playing a 12+ game and beating content in it are NOT included in that crowd, including myself. I'd never allow anyone to "admire" me for what epics my toon is wearing if they spoke to me about it.
    Last edited by Rorcanna; 2012-10-05 at 10:51 AM.

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