Last edited by Centerra; 2012-10-06 at 07:26 AM.
However, I suppose if someone enjoyed the raiding that was back in TBC (besides the numerous bugs the raids had, at least when they were released) then I can see why people want to go back to that (stack shamans what?). Although I have to admit, I thought Karazhan was pretty brilliant (until the 30% across the board nerf).
It meant something! We DID something! AGGH i miss the past.
The problem with tiered raiding is that the game continues to grow. While still in TBC, this wasn't a problem, but if you would roll an alt now you'd have to go through Vanilla raids first, then BC, then WoTLK, then Cata, then MoP. That's just madness and wouldn't make anyone want to level alts. Because at some point you simply don't WANT to do a specific kind of raid tier or instance anymore, and also won't find enough players for it.
I guess it only kind of worked in Classic or TBC because there were few raids, and the system was new.
And even if you limit it to the current expansion content only, it would still be a lot to ask of alts to go through like T11 first then T12 again then T13 finally. At some point you just can't see a certain raid content anymore. Personally I'm always looking forward to the next thing because it's fresh and new, and I'm not that fond of the idea that my alts would be forced to go through all the past stuff first.
But besides that, WoW still offers enough challenging content for hardcore players. It always has. With MoP we even have one more thing. Currently we have:
- Hardmode raids (pre-nerf)
- Challenge mode dungeon time runs
- PvP of course
In all of that, you can be either really exceptionally good or really exceptionally bad.
If you want to be good you can:
- clear HC Raids pre-nerf before most or everyone else does it (wowprogress.com)
- get insane Challenge Mode times and of course the full gold transmog set
- get Gladiator or even tournament-level PvP skills
These are three big goals for hardcore players. No casual will ever, EVER, *** EVER *** achieve that.
And about the issue of nerfing content. First off, this doesn't apply to PvP. If you want the purest form of competitiveness, go play PvP.
For PvE content, it's a matter of time. The better you are, the faster you are clearing stuff and this also means of course you're clearing it before any nerfs are applied.
Nerfs are not there for the most hardcore players. These players are just smashing their way through the hard content before most other players and then that earns them their place at the top. The nerfs are for like medium skilled players or guilds who want to do Heroic raids because they're bored with Normal but don't want to wipe hundreds of times on one boss. Blizzard said they have actual statistics about semi-hardcore guilds who simply stop trying after enough wipes, get frustrated, whine on forums, and maybe even quit the game. That's the kind of demographic the nerfs are for.
And for casual players? Well it's quite simple: wait until the next expansion / level-cap, then you can do all past heroic raids with ease. Or just stick to Normal Modes. Or even LFR, although the social experience within LFR is not something I'd consider great.
WoW's PvE competitiveness is (and has been) all about time. If you want to be good, do it fast and pre-nerf. If you want to be bad, do it slow.
A guild who finally did 8/8 HC with a 35% buff is simply no match for Paragon even though both have 8/8 HC and the same gear. It doesn't really matter how you spin it - it's just not a comparison.
And for the PvP side, there's also no comparison between a common 1400-1800 player and a Gladiator or even tournament-experienced player. Sure the 1400-1800 guy can also get ALMOST the best gear, but he's still shit.
I think people generally should stop paying so much attention to which kind of gear someone has or not, and pay more attention to skill and effort done.
Also: Nostalgia is a bitch.
Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2012-10-06 at 08:27 AM.
Shit, I think they'd be better off if they just started ignoring "competitive" PvP and just started balancing PvP around what's the most fun for the most people - random BGs, 2v2 arenas, etc. Probably the only way they'd ever convince me to buy MoP and resub, anyway.
You obviously don't know too much about it and assume that everything is based on luck or comp or class you play. Which is 90% wrong. I'm not saying 100% wrong because there always exist some specs who simply can't reach the highest level because of balance issues (think of resto druids in Cataclysm), but aside from that (which is a small percentage), we've seen almost every class play at the highest level in tournaments, and often times a comp wins a tournament which was not "supposed" to win it based on widespread balancing claims.
Meaning that the PvP is more balanced than most people think. And there are truly godlike players of every class who are capable of getting Gladiator and tournament invites every season.
Why don't you take that seriously, again?
Plus, Blizzard stated that they balance for both PvE and PvP. It maybe was an afterthought in the early days because the original game didn't ship with PvP, but from some point on they want to make sure that every change they make respects both PvE and PvP aspects. So it's not anymore.
Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2012-10-06 at 08:46 AM.
---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 03:53 AM ----------
I quit playing because it wasn't fun. Getting globaled by frost mages or rogues wasn't that big of a deal, but ending up in a game of capture the flag with both teams having three healers and no one dies... man, that's boring as hell. Lots of other games I can play that are fun, so why waste time on one that isn't?
Which is why healers are still completely broken, right?Plus, Blizzard stated that they balance for both PvE and PvP. It maybe was an afterthought in the early days because the original game didn't ship with PvP, but from some point on they want to make sure that every change they make respects both PvE and PvP aspects. So it's not anymore.
Challenge mode dungeons might be fine if you enjoy that but it still has nothing to do with challenging raids, two very different types of content with different target groups.
Far from everyone PvP and again has nothing to do with challenging PvE content. Basically you are saying that if you are a PvE player that seeks a challenge you have to raid X hours a week to beat the nerfs and do 5 man timed runs, any other content is simply reserved for the people not seeking a challenge, even the heroic raids that are aimed at the players seeking a challenge.
No one forces anyone to wipe hundreds of times on a boss, if you don't want to do it then don't.
---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 09:02 AM ----------
Case in point, if I see a player with a cool mount, I think "that's a cool mount," not "that's a good player."
I have been playing this game for about five years. Not since the beginning, granted, but long enough to have rolled around quite a bit. Not once have I ever been substantially impressed by another player. Not once have I aspired to be another player. Nor have I ever met another player, in a guild, passing comments in trade chat, or anywhere else over those five years that have expressed anything approaching a serious want to do either of those things.
Like I said, people play the game the way THEY want. If the way YOU want to play is to make OTHERS care about what you do, I believe an old saying put it quite eloquently... you can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
Last edited by Kaleredar; 2012-10-06 at 09:16 AM.
In this situation, it'd be like major league players only playing to impress other major league players. And if this is the case, they, or you, all know the "reality" of achievements and time stamps, and what truly "matters" about them. It seems to me you're worried that Johnny Blue Weapon wont think you're cool because your achievement looks kinda like this other guy's achievement, but you know the other guy didn't put in as much effort as you/
the majority of wow players dont even know about mmochampion or go on the forums the amount of people on here are the minority
"I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
Yes and no.How fast you clear have little to do with skill and much more to do with how much time you spend doing it, by your logic my guild who didn't beat the nerfs with 2 days a week was less skilled than a guild raiding 5 days a week that cleared it the day before the nerfs.
My guild is able to clear current content pre-nerf, but we only raid 3 times a week, not 4 or even 5. Maybe it would even work with just two days, but then we'd be very slow.
Spend any less time and you probably won't be able to beat the content anymore before the nerfs are coming.
But that's not too much of a time investment to ask, is it?
What does this have to do with availability? Besides, LFR/Normal isn't for hardcore players anyway (well, besides the fact that they have to progress through Normal once).Would you support removal of LFR and Normal content after X amount of time as well? I mean if you didn't beat it fast enough you clearly shouldn't have the content available to you.
True, but that's almost a non-issue because the items from the next-tier heroic dungeons are almost as good. Not that good, but close.You do realize that the nerfs letting them access heroic modes and it's gear just compounds this issue right? The content isn't aimed at them in the first place so what happens when hey get access to the gear from it thought nerfs is that they beat normal of the next tier much faster than they would have otherwise and again stands around in heroic where they don't belong as it's not aimed for them.
Yes, but it becomes a problem when players quit the game because they get overly frustrated when they always wipe at like 10% Boss HP, or whine on forums about perceived class imbalances.No one forces anyone to wipe hundreds of times on a boss, if you don't want to do it then don't.
Skill and effort is almost indistinguishable *anyway* unless you inspect the player (achievements, dates) and also test them in-game. That's really the only way to be sure. Three examples where you can't simply tell if someone is good or not although it might appear so:Yet you promote nerfs that removes the need for skill and effort to get the same rewards thus making skill and effort indistinguishable outside of inspecting dates of achievements.
- Some Gladiator level PvPers run around with the title "the Patient" just for fun, so that others may view them as newbies, which isn't true of course.
- There are guilds boosting players to get their HC title and mount and what have you. But to really be sure that the player is good, you have to inspect him more closely or test him.
- Account selling.
Doesn't say much, because as long as there are a few other classes doing great as well, it can be considered balanced enough. I know that RLS, RMP and so on were very popular and strong, but it's not the only option to play at high levels. If you think you'd have to play one of the most popular classes or comps in order to be competitive, you're fooling yourself.So top 100 arena teams world wide had a even spread of classes then? I'd love to see those stats as I'm quite sure they would prove you wrong.
You will of course never get 100% perfect balance, but as long as each class (ideally, every spec as well, but that's probably utopian) is capable of joining the highest ranks, it can be considered FINE.
Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2012-10-06 at 10:18 AM.
That's not balanced, and it's why competitive PvP in WoW is and always has been a joke.
There's no eSport demand for WoW (because people know it's garbage as a competitive game), so why even care about what the "pro" players say? In a game like WoW, you want to pander to the masses, and not the small sub-set of "hardcore" players. Millions of players play tons of random BGs every week, but very few play arena with the intention of being competitive.
So why balance around arena when balancing around random BGs would result in a much more fun game for more people? I'd still be playing if random BGs didn't feel like such an exercise in futility.
---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 10:46 AM ----------
Linear raiding in BC didn't have this issue as the nerfs didn't come until new content was out.
Now I'm no expert on WoW PvP nor do I care much about it so take my comments on that for what they are.
if you're looking for recognition or respect from your peers you're playing this game for the wrong reasons
"I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool