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  1. #101
    You seriously think Titan will be F2P? I'm sorry but Blizzard do not fuck up their games like NCsoft does.

    So you want a game that will have content but only 5% of the playerbase will ever see it? Seriously? Some guy has a nice new car. You can't get one so you go smash his. People like this piss me off.
    Signature and Avatar by ElyPop

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Ituhippi View Post
    Hope not. MoP is much more interesting than a new WoW/TBC.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-04 at 01:01 PM ----------




    No, the statistics were right. With what super powers can you prove otherwise?
    Statistics are always right, as long as they come from factual data. The fault lies with how people explain statistics.

    In other words, the fact that 5% of the population was raiding the highest possible end-game content, didn't mean that there were hardly any raiders. It simply meant that those 5% were more capable or invested more of their time and life in the game. Blizzard pulled the same thing, explaining it like "developing content is something we do for everyone, not just for the top 5%" and klabam we have ourselves new casual instances, so everyone gets to see all content at a discount.

    That's what happened. That does not mean that all other raiders have to be happy about it. Those other raiders understood their limits, our limits, and simply took one encounter at a time. When I saw someone in better gear, I knew they were better players or had a better guild. Today, not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post

    So you want a game that will have content but only 5% of the playerbase will ever see it? Seriously? Some guy has a nice new car. You can't get one so you go smash his. People like this piss me off.
    The correct comparison is:
    You own a Volkswagen Opel. Someone drives past you in the most expensive Audi available. You feel that you want that car, but sadly, you are just an average wage guy at some no-name company and that other guy is the CEO of a company with a name.

    Somehow, somewhere, your skills in life are not enough, currently, to be able to get that same salary. That's a pity, but a cold hard fact. So either you work your balls off to get that car, or you reflect and decide that your current life is a nice one without the stress it normally requires to obtain said car.

    Reflect that upon a healthy raiding environment and you get WoW vanilla/tBC.

    Currently, WoW has too much middle management. The CEO takes down Heroic challenges, but the company decided they would need more management to face the common issues, so they kept hiring more and more managers that all want a better salary and a better car, so they get the Audi minus the extra options and they get the salary without the extra healthcare options.

    If this continues, all that will be left, are managers. All on the same salary, with the same options, with the same bonusses, with the same room, chair, pc and car. None of them will feel challenged to progress, because they have the good life. Which becomes boring, when you have everything you want and there aren't any classifications anymore. You are the same as all those 2500 other managers. You are now just a number, with nothing that differentiates you from the rest.

    There's only one place to progress to and that's the position of CEO. Which is one spot, with 2500 contenders.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-10-04 at 10:43 AM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    You seriously think Titan will be F2P? I'm sorry but Blizzard do not fuck up their games like NCsoft does.

    So you want a game that will have content but only 5% of the playerbase will ever see it? Seriously? Some guy has a nice new car. You can't get one so you go smash his. People like this piss me off.
    In addition to Vespian's excellent post above you analogy fails when applied to WoW raiding, you would be the one smashing the nice car to put the other guy on equal footing because you didn't want to make the effort getting one like it.

    Edit: Mehh slightly redundant after the edit above but will leave it anyway.
    Active PoE: @MajorAsshole EvE: Redblade (Reikoku)
    Inactive D3: Armory Rift: Alyssaa @ Icewatch SWTOR: Redblade @ ToFN WoW: My graveyard of characters.
    People just do the strangest things when they believe they're entitled. But they do even stranger things when they just plain believe. - Kevin Smith

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    In addition to Vespian's excellent post above you analogy fails when applied to WoW raiding, you would be the one smashing the nice car to put the other guy on equal footing because you didn't want to make the effort getting one like it.

    Edit: Mehh slightly redundant after the edit above but will leave it anyway.
    I won't hold it against you :P

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Statistics are always right, as long as they come from factual data. The fault lies with how people explain statistics.

    In other words, the fact that 5% of the population was raiding the highest possible end-game content, didn't mean that there were hardly any raiders. It simply meant that those 5% were more capable or invested more of their time and life in the game. Blizzard pulled the same thing, explaining it like "developing content is something we do for everyone, not just for the top 5%" and klabam we have ourselves new casual instances, so everyone gets to see all content at a discount.

    That's what happened. That does not mean that all other raiders have to be happy about it. Those other raiders understood their limits, our limits, and simply took one encounter at a time. When I saw someone in better gear, I knew they were better players or had a better guild. Today, not so much.
    20% of the game's current total population cleared Dragon Soul. That's including any of the 3 LFR/Normal/Heroic modes. How many people exactly do you think were raiding even Kara or above during TBC, without even LFR available, when considering that Dragon Soul is the most cleared raid of all time?
    Last edited by Shinzai; 2012-10-04 at 11:27 AM. Reason: minor edit

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    20% of the game's current total population cleared Dragon Soul. That's including any of the 3 LFR/Normal/Heroic modes. How many people exactly do you think were raiding even Kara or above during TBC, without even LFR available, when considering that Dragon Soul is the most cleared raid of all time?
    You don't see a pattern? Easy access, easy clear? In vanilla not a single (level 60) guild wasn't a raid guild. So in short, everyone was a raider in Vanilla. Give or take a few. The same counts for tBC. You are comparing the wrong statistics.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-10-04 at 11:46 AM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post

    Well, that's subjective really. What one person calls improvement another might call a total fail. And if WoW is improving, why is it losing subs?
    Because in Cata they tried to cater for people like Alyssa. That's why its the first expansion in losing subs.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Currently they are developing for the 10% that do want and enjoy raiding while spending extra resources to balance and deal with the issues that arises from i-lvl inflation and such to push the other 90% in to content they didn't want to do in the first place
    Wow, some people ... WOW.

    You do believe that, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1
    You know when men aren't listening to you and they have erect penises whilst looking up to the sky thinking of multiple sex positions?

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    You don't see a pattern? Easy access, easy clear? In vanilla not a single (level 60) guild wasn't a raid guild. So in short, everyone was a raider in Vanilla. Give or take a few. The same counts for tBC. You are comparing the wrong statistics.
    I know for a fact that not every guild was a raid guild in TBC. Same applies for Vanilla, it's simply wrong to assume that. The raiding community was small and fairly tight-knit. Most people knew who the raid guilds were comprised of and that was that. I'm not sure what statistics you want to have compared, but the simple fact is that just over 5% of the game's population was raiding in TBC. I suppose if you're going to tack on doing Kara and the like just prior to WotLK and such, then you could say 8-10% of the population may have been raiding, even if not clearing content.

    I'm not sure why you want act as though the raiding population of the game should be (hyperbole) 50% or something, because it simply isn't and never has been. The most raided instance of all time hit 20% total. WotLK had more raiders than TBC and so on. Blizzard themselves said that 1% of players ever even saw the original Naxxramas for example.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    In addition to Vespian's excellent post above you analogy fails when applied to WoW raiding, you would be the one smashing the nice car to put the other guy on equal footing because you didn't want to make the effort getting one like it.

    Edit: Mehh slightly redundant after the edit above but will leave it anyway.
    Ok how about this. You have the nice car right? The other guy though is getting slowly behind and he too purchases a nice car. You see that and you hate him for it. So you go and smash his car because in your opinion you're the only one who can have nice cars.
    Signature and Avatar by ElyPop

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    I know for a fact that not every guild was a raid guild in TBC. Same applies for Vanilla, it's simply wrong to assume that. The raiding community was small and fairly tight-knit. Most people knew who the raid guilds were comprised of and that was that. I'm not sure what statistics you want to have compared, but the simple fact is that just over 5% of the game's population was raiding in TBC. I suppose if you're going to tack on doing Kara and the like just prior to WotLK and such, then you could say 8-10% of the population may have been raiding, even if not clearing content.

    I'm not sure why you want act as though the raiding population of the game should be (hyperbole) 50% or something, because it simply isn't and never has been. The most raided instance of all time hit 20% total. WotLK had more raiders than TBC and so on. Blizzard themselves said that 1% of players ever even saw the original Naxxramas for example.
    You have no proof to claim that the raiding community was small. It's utter bullshit you're sprouting. The only statistics you can throw at me are the ones Blizzard gave you and those only reflect cleared content margins. They have nothing to do with how many people raid or should be considered raiders. In the old days, WoW endgame was about raiding. You can not dispute that. There were no achievements, no dailies, no gear vendors for points.

    There was outdoor pvp the first 4 months, when it still meant something, but started to crash the server(s), so they were forced to introduce battle grounds and for a full year or two, PvP was about points that gave you a rank. So it was either PvP or Raiding and most did both, because there was no resilience!

    So if you really want to argue about how servers were built up, it's more in the region of 20% casual, 30% raiding, 30% PvP and 20% both, but never, ever near the fictive assumptions you have about how it used to be. If the classic raiders, like me were still feeling challenged by content (Which I personally don't due to gear inflation, Yes, I like to show off if I worked hard for something) the current content would have a 75% clear ratio of the total population. But we just don't care anymore.

    Once more, making content easier to access does not mean that you can say "See, now more people raid". It's bullshit.
    - If you make easier content, obviously more people will be able to clear it.
    - If your population is dwindling, obviously the percentage will be affected, because it's players/totalpopulation.
    - If you add the easy modes of any of the instances to the percentage, you are using statistics wrong.

    Making an easy mode BWL would have given the same netto result. "Oh see, now suddenly 20% manages to finish this content". No shit Sherlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Ok how about this. You have the nice car right? The other guy though is getting slowly behind and he too purchases a nice car. You see that and you hate him for it. So you go and smash his car because in your opinion you're the only one who can have nice cars.
    Look, if you don't get it, just don't comment.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-10-04 at 12:14 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Ok how about this. You have the nice car right? The other guy though is getting slowly behind and he too purchases a nice car. You see that and you hate him for it. So you go and smash his car because in your opinion you're the only one who can have nice cars.
    Sounds more like PvP'ers on a PvP realm camping outside of raid entrances.

  13. #113
    i said id never touch wow again but with my annual sub still running (damn u D3) the temptation was too great when i saw mists for £22 in a shop.. ive only played for a couple hours but its killing time which is the best thing about it. I just bough xcom on steam and mists (i hope) will prevent me from buying any other game till Wii U lands at the end of Nov.

    No opinions on the game atm.. ill only be doing pvp and the odd dungeon anyway.
    Dictated but not read.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    You have no proof to claim that the raiding community was small. It's utter bullshit you're sprouting. The only statistics you can throw at me are the ones Blizzard gave you and those only reflect cleared content margins. They have nothing to do with how many people raid or should be considered raiders. In the old days, WoW endgame was about raiding. You can not dispute that. There were no achievements, no dailies, no gear vendors for points.

    There was outdoor pvp the first 4 months, when it still meant something, but started to crash the server(s), so they were forced to introduce battle grounds and for a full year or two, PvP was about points that gave you a rank. So it was either PvP or Raiding and most did both, because there was no resilience!

    So if you really want to argue about how servers were built up, it's more in the region of 20% casual, 30% raiding, 30% PvP and 20% both, but never, ever near the fictive assumptions you have about how it used to be. If the classic raiders, like me were still feeling challenged by content (Which I personally don't due to gear inflation, Yes, I like to show off if I worked hard for something) the current content would have a 75% clear ratio of the total population. But we just don't care anymore.

    Once more, making content easier to access does not mean that you can say "See, now more people raid". It's bullshit.



    Look, if you don't get it, just don't comment.
    So you have the true statistics some where and can prove this? Also, if it was 30% of the population raiding at Classic, that would mean at least 2million people would have classic raid achieves. Which they don't.

    Having more people actually playing and clearing raids is proof of more people raiding. End of story. Unless you can prove otherwise, why even debate it?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Sounds more like PvP'ers on a PvP realm camping outside of raid entrances.
    lol sounds awesome
    Dictated but not read.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Look, if you don't get it, just don't comment.
    Actually I do get it. I don't raid. But I know that there are people who are casual players yet they like to raid from time to time. Guess what. They pay the same as you do. I get it, You are butthurt that in order to clear HC raids you need to put more work than those who clear LFR. No one asked you though, it was your choice.
    Signature and Avatar by ElyPop

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Insanoflex View Post
    lol sounds awesome
    I participated in it a few times myself, ridiculously scaled blood baths would quickly ensue as people brought whole guilds down on each other.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    So you have the true statistics some where and can prove this? Also, if it was 30% of the population raiding at Classic, that would mean at least 2million people would have classic raid achieves. Which they don't.

    Having more people actually playing and clearing raids is proof of more people raiding. End of story. Unless you can prove otherwise, why even debate it?
    How about me? I cleared BWL. Achievements for those instances are bugged as hell. I hardly got a few MC achievements. I was still walking around in T2 though. Achievements from that period are not reliable. You can't begin to argue that they are (because you never played Vanilla, judging by your reaction).

    Also, statistically, factually, theoretically and in practice, you are wrong about higher percentages bringing you the proof you speak of. It's impossible to claim that it definitely means more people raid.

    It could mean that instances are easier.
    It could mean that people have become more skillful
    It could mean that more people raid
    It could mean that people that left weren't raiders.
    It could mean that dungeons that wouldn't count as raids suddenly do count as raids and therefore their statistics add up.

    Whichever it is, it does not mean that all people that didn't clear endgame content, aren't raiders. It also doesn't mean that classic content had less raiders. It could, but that's what I talked about earlier, it's how you decide to explain those statistics. I swear, hands down, that the only reason that 20% could be obtained, is due to the fact that LFR and normal modes are easy to complete for the bad people out there.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-10-04 at 12:28 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    I participated in it a few times myself, ridiculously scaled blood baths would quickly ensue as people brought whole guilds down on each other.
    i remember doing similar stuff in wotlk but i never really played Cata so i guess ill have to catch up when i hit cap
    Dictated but not read.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    How about me? I cleared BWL. Achievements for those instances are bugged as hell. I hardly got a few MC achievements. I was still walking around in T2 though. Achievements from that period are not reliable. You can't begin to argue that they are (because you never played Vanilla, judging by your reaction).
    Actually, I did play during Vanilla, though I never raided in it. I was still playing FFXI at the time and couldn't be bothered playing both at a serious level. I did however participate in quite a bit of PvP. I had 3 friends who were in raiding guilds (trying to convince me to play WoW full time) and kept track of what they were upto and such though. Regardless of this, my point still stands. I was actively raiding in TBC and still I didn't see evidence of the gigantic amounts of raiders that you suggest. Most people were just doing Heroic dungeons at best.

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