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  1. #281
    Stood in the Fire Centerra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Not by any other company than Blizzard, and why should they go back when they want to move their game forward?
    I must take argument to this, since wrath the game has become locked to a single tier at any one point model (which is what I believe the OP is getting at), and with badges and points it hasn't budged since then. And that killed it for a lot of us. Since wrath blizzard has just added more of the same style content (although I admit challenge modes look reasonably meaty) and haven't pushed the game in any direction at all.
    Last edited by Centerra; 2012-10-06 at 07:26 AM.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    Tell me, tell me now: what was so good about tbc? I don't get it.
    Nostalgia mostly. The grass is always greener on the other side sort of thing.

    However, I suppose if someone enjoyed the raiding that was back in TBC (besides the numerous bugs the raids had, at least when they were released) then I can see why people want to go back to that (stack shamans what?). Although I have to admit, I thought Karazhan was pretty brilliant (until the 30% across the board nerf).

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    However, I suppose if someone enjoyed the raiding that was back in TBC (besides the numerous bugs the raids had, at least when they were released) then I can see why people want to go back to that (stack shamans what?). Although I have to admit, I thought Karazhan was pretty brilliant (until the 30% across the board nerf).
    I doubt anyone wants to go back to that exact version of WoW, a common assumption in discussions like these, think the same frame but with todays technology like for example account bound attunements, todays class balance and so on, no one is arguing the game was perfect back then either but the basic concept and direction was better than todays version.
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  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Nostalgia mostly. The grass is always greener on the other side sort of thing.
    While nostalgia probably is about 60% right, what made tbc great for me was pre-badge system raiding. You had a whole pyramid of raids above you, and you worked your way up it, without skipping forwards when a new patch was released.

    It meant something! We DID something! AGGH i miss the past.

  5. #285
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    The problem with tiered raiding is that the game continues to grow. While still in TBC, this wasn't a problem, but if you would roll an alt now you'd have to go through Vanilla raids first, then BC, then WoTLK, then Cata, then MoP. That's just madness and wouldn't make anyone want to level alts. Because at some point you simply don't WANT to do a specific kind of raid tier or instance anymore, and also won't find enough players for it.
    I guess it only kind of worked in Classic or TBC because there were few raids, and the system was new.
    And even if you limit it to the current expansion content only, it would still be a lot to ask of alts to go through like T11 first then T12 again then T13 finally. At some point you just can't see a certain raid content anymore. Personally I'm always looking forward to the next thing because it's fresh and new, and I'm not that fond of the idea that my alts would be forced to go through all the past stuff first.

    But besides that, WoW still offers enough challenging content for hardcore players. It always has. With MoP we even have one more thing. Currently we have:
    - Hardmode raids (pre-nerf)
    - Challenge mode dungeon time runs
    - PvP of course

    In all of that, you can be either really exceptionally good or really exceptionally bad.
    If you want to be good you can:
    - clear HC Raids pre-nerf before most or everyone else does it (wowprogress.com)
    - get insane Challenge Mode times and of course the full gold transmog set
    - get Gladiator or even tournament-level PvP skills

    These are three big goals for hardcore players. No casual will ever, EVER, *** EVER *** achieve that.

    And about the issue of nerfing content. First off, this doesn't apply to PvP. If you want the purest form of competitiveness, go play PvP.
    For PvE content, it's a matter of time. The better you are, the faster you are clearing stuff and this also means of course you're clearing it before any nerfs are applied.
    Nerfs are not there for the most hardcore players. These players are just smashing their way through the hard content before most other players and then that earns them their place at the top. The nerfs are for like medium skilled players or guilds who want to do Heroic raids because they're bored with Normal but don't want to wipe hundreds of times on one boss. Blizzard said they have actual statistics about semi-hardcore guilds who simply stop trying after enough wipes, get frustrated, whine on forums, and maybe even quit the game. That's the kind of demographic the nerfs are for.
    And for casual players? Well it's quite simple: wait until the next expansion / level-cap, then you can do all past heroic raids with ease. Or just stick to Normal Modes. Or even LFR, although the social experience within LFR is not something I'd consider great.

    WoW's PvE competitiveness is (and has been) all about time. If you want to be good, do it fast and pre-nerf. If you want to be bad, do it slow.
    A guild who finally did 8/8 HC with a 35% buff is simply no match for Paragon even though both have 8/8 HC and the same gear. It doesn't really matter how you spin it - it's just not a comparison.

    And for the PvP side, there's also no comparison between a common 1400-1800 player and a Gladiator or even tournament-experienced player. Sure the 1400-1800 guy can also get ALMOST the best gear, but he's still shit.

    I think people generally should stop paying so much attention to which kind of gear someone has or not, and pay more attention to skill and effort done.

    Also: Nostalgia is a bitch.
    Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2012-10-06 at 08:27 AM.

  6. #286
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    And for the PvP side, there's also no comparison between a common 1400-1800 player and a Gladiator or even tournament-experienced player. Sure the 1400-1800 guy can also get ALMOST the best gear, but he's still shit.
    Playing WoW's PvP in a competitive sense has been a joke since... well, since people tried to take it seriously back with season 1. It's not a game where you can have a balanced system, because it's designed around an entirely different sort of play (players versus dragons) and then kind of beat with a wrench until it roughly resembles something else.

    Shit, I think they'd be better off if they just started ignoring "competitive" PvP and just started balancing PvP around what's the most fun for the most people - random BGs, 2v2 arenas, etc. Probably the only way they'd ever convince me to buy MoP and resub, anyway.
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  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post

    Shit, I think they'd be better off if they just started ignoring "competitive" PvP and just started balancing PvP around what's the most fun for the most people - random BGs, 2v2 arenas, etc. Probably the only way they'd ever convince me to buy MoP and resub, anyway.
    Sounds alot like what they tried to do with rated BGs in cata. People were really hyped for a while.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Playing WoW's PvP in a competitive sense has been a joke since... well, since people tried to take it seriously back with season 1. It's not a game where you can have a balanced system, because it's designed around an entirely different sort of play (players versus dragons) and then kind of beat with a wrench until it roughly resembles something else.

    Shit, I think they'd be better off if they just started ignoring "competitive" PvP and just started balancing PvP around what's the most fun for the most people - random BGs, 2v2 arenas, etc. Probably the only way they'd ever convince me to buy MoP and resub, anyway.
    I don't take people seriously who don't take PvP seriously.
    You obviously don't know too much about it and assume that everything is based on luck or comp or class you play. Which is 90% wrong. I'm not saying 100% wrong because there always exist some specs who simply can't reach the highest level because of balance issues (think of resto druids in Cataclysm), but aside from that (which is a small percentage), we've seen almost every class play at the highest level in tournaments, and often times a comp wins a tournament which was not "supposed" to win it based on widespread balancing claims.
    Meaning that the PvP is more balanced than most people think. And there are truly godlike players of every class who are capable of getting Gladiator and tournament invites every season.

    Why don't you take that seriously, again?

    Plus, Blizzard stated that they balance for both PvE and PvP. It maybe was an afterthought in the early days because the original game didn't ship with PvP, but from some point on they want to make sure that every change they make respects both PvE and PvP aspects. So it's not anymore.
    Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2012-10-06 at 08:46 AM.

  9. #289
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centerra View Post
    Sounds alot like what they tried to do with rated BGs in cata. People were really hyped for a while.
    Yeah, and I think that's the biggest reason I don't have any faith left in Blizzard anymore. I had high hopes for Cata, and for just a little while, it actually sounded like they were gonna follow through... but, nope.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 03:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    I don't take people seriously who don't take PvP seriously.
    You obviously don't know too much about it and assume that everything is based on luck or comp or class you play. Which is 90% wrong. I'm not saying 100% wrong because there always exist some specs who simply can't reach the highest level because of balance issues (think of resto druids in Cataclysm), but aside from that (which is a small percentage), we've seen almost every class play at the highest level in tournaments, and often times a comp wins a tournament which was not "supposed" to win it based on widespread balancing claims.
    Meaning that the PvP is more balanced than most people think. And there are truly godlike players of every class who are capable of getting Gladiator and tournament invites every season.

    Why don't you take that seriously, again?
    Because it's not fun. I don't want to play a healer and basically be a punching bag with legs because I'm not allowed to do damage. But I don't want to play against healers that never run out of mana and can't be killed without a ludicrous amount of coordination between strangers in a game without VoIP.

    I quit playing because it wasn't fun. Getting globaled by frost mages or rogues wasn't that big of a deal, but ending up in a game of capture the flag with both teams having three healers and no one dies... man, that's boring as hell. Lots of other games I can play that are fun, so why waste time on one that isn't?

    Plus, Blizzard stated that they balance for both PvE and PvP. It maybe was an afterthought in the early days because the original game didn't ship with PvP, but from some point on they want to make sure that every change they make respects both PvE and PvP aspects. So it's not anymore.
    Which is why healers are still completely broken, right?
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  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    And even if you limit it to the current expansion content only, it would still be a lot to ask of alts to go through like T11 first then T12 again then T13 finally. At some point you just can't see a certain raid content anymore. Personally I'm always looking forward to the next thing because it's fresh and new, and I'm not that fond of the idea that my alts would be forced to go through all the past stuff first.
    Yet it worked just fine for vanilla and TBC, and TBC had the most boss fights out of all expansions, if you had a guild high enough up the content pyramid you didn't need to go through it all as you could get booster through mid level content, most guilds had late night runs or alt runs going already.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    But besides that, WoW still offers enough challenging content for hardcore players. It always has. With MoP we even have one more thing. Currently we have:
    - Hardmode raids (pre-nerf)
    - Challenge mode dungeon time runs
    - PvP of course
    Why does it have to be pre-nerf, why does there have to be a expire date on the hardest content? Why should people seeking a challenge be forced to raid more than everyone else in favor of the once not wanting to put in the time or effort getting access? It's awfully backwards if you ask me.

    Challenge mode dungeons might be fine if you enjoy that but it still has nothing to do with challenging raids, two very different types of content with different target groups.

    Far from everyone PvP and again has nothing to do with challenging PvE content. Basically you are saying that if you are a PvE player that seeks a challenge you have to raid X hours a week to beat the nerfs and do 5 man timed runs, any other content is simply reserved for the people not seeking a challenge, even the heroic raids that are aimed at the players seeking a challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    And about the issue of nerfing content. First off, this doesn't apply to PvP. If you want the purest form of competitiveness, go play PvP.
    Horrible argument...just horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    For PvE content, it's a matter of time. The better you are, the faster you are clearing stuff and this also means of course you're clearing it before any nerfs are applied.
    How fast you clear have little to do with skill and much more to do with how much time you spend doing it, by your logic my guild who didn't beat the nerfs with 2 days a week was less skilled than a guild raiding 5 days a week that cleared it the day before the nerfs. Would you support removal of LFR and Normal content after X amount of time as well? I mean if you didn't beat it fast enough you clearly shouldn't have the content available to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    Nerfs are not there for the most hardcore players. These players are just smashing their way through the hard content before most other players and then that earns them their place at the top. The nerfs are for like medium skilled players or guilds who want to do Heroic raids because they're bored with Normal but don't want to wipe hundreds of times on one boss.
    You do realize that the nerfs letting them access heroic modes and it's gear just compounds this issue right? The content isn't aimed at them in the first place so what happens when hey get access to the gear from it thought nerfs is that they beat normal of the next tier much faster than they would have otherwise and again stands around in heroic where they don't belong as it's not aimed for them.

    No one forces anyone to wipe hundreds of times on a boss, if you don't want to do it then don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    I think people generally should stop paying so much attention to which kind of gear someone has or not, and pay more attention to skill and effort done.
    Yet you promote nerfs that removes the need for skill and effort to get the same rewards thus making skill and effort indistinguishable outside of inspecting dates of achievements.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 09:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    we've seen almost every class play at the highest level in tournaments, and often times a comp wins a tournament which was not "supposed" to win it based on widespread balancing claims.
    Meaning that the PvP is more balanced than most people think. And there are truly godlike players of every class who are capable of getting Gladiator and tournament invites every season.
    So top 100 arena teams world wide had a even spread of classes then? I'd love to see those stats as I'm quite sure they would prove you wrong.
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  11. #291
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Point being no one really looks at timestamps hence why it's a shit argument, especially if everyone gets all achievements in the end.
    You seem to be under the false impression that people care about other player's progress in the game at all, outside of the people they directly interact with to run raids or do arenas/RBGs with. Your statements seem to be based entirely upon the asumption that some sort of peanut gallery looked upon you with favor, and now doesn't anymore. This was never the case.

    Case in point, if I see a player with a cool mount, I think "that's a cool mount," not "that's a good player."

    I have been playing this game for about five years. Not since the beginning, granted, but long enough to have rolled around quite a bit. Not once have I ever been substantially impressed by another player. Not once have I aspired to be another player. Nor have I ever met another player, in a guild, passing comments in trade chat, or anywhere else over those five years that have expressed anything approaching a serious want to do either of those things.

    Like I said, people play the game the way THEY want. If the way YOU want to play is to make OTHERS care about what you do, I believe an old saying put it quite eloquently... you can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2012-10-06 at 09:16 AM.
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  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    You seem to be under the false impression that people care about other player's progress in the game at all, outside of the people they directly interact with to run raids or do arenas/RBGs with.

    If I see a player with a cool mount, I think "that's a cool mount," not "that's a good player."
    You might not care, that doesn't mean that people in general are the same as you though, progression sites, streams, players transferring to get boosts, and so on clearly says that there are people who care. Having played since vanilla in all kinda of guilds from casual low skill to realm first I can say that far more people care about rankings and realm status than you seem to think.
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  13. #293
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    You might not care, that doesn't mean that people in general are the same as you though, progression sites, streams, players transferring to get boosts, and so on clearly says that there are people who care. Having played since vanilla in all kinda of guilds from casual low skill to realm first I can say that far more people care about rankings and realm status than you seem to think.
    But these people that "care" as you say and have described, are raiders, hardcore PvPers, etc. I'm of fair conviction that your standard heroic dungeon runner WoW player does not follow cutting edge progression and bite their nails raw over server firsts. One of my toons is in a casual guild-- I could probably ask any of the 500 individual people in it who the leading guild on our server is, and I don't think I would get very many answers. Not because any of them are ignorant, but because none of them care. It is irrelevant to how they play the game, as it is to me.

    In this situation, it'd be like major league players only playing to impress other major league players. And if this is the case, they, or you, all know the "reality" of achievements and time stamps, and what truly "matters" about them. It seems to me you're worried that Johnny Blue Weapon wont think you're cool because your achievement looks kinda like this other guy's achievement, but you know the other guy didn't put in as much effort as you/
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  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Not because any of them are ignorant, but because none of them care. It is irrelevant to how they play the game, as it is to me.
    And I have a totally opposite experience, most people would know who was the leading guild for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    In this situation, it'd be like major league players only playing to impress other major league players. And if this is the case, they, or you, all know the "reality" of achievements and time stamps, and what truly "matters" about them. It seems to me you're worried that Johnny Blue Weapon wont think you're cool because your achievement looks kinda like this other guy's achievement, but you know the other guy didn't put in as much effort as you/
    You seem to think that somehow people behave differently than other aspects of life just because it's an MMO, your average guy that likes hockey will watch it and keep him self informed about it because it interests him, same goes for an MMO people that raid in it will be interested in raiding and keep them selfs informed about raiding, people who don't raid have nothing to do with the discussion at hand as they are not affected in any way shape or form.
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  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    And I have a totally opposite experience, most people would know who was the leading guild for example.



    You seem to think that somehow people behave differently than other aspects of life just because it's an MMO, your average guy that likes hockey will watch it and keep him self informed about it because it interests him, same goes for an MMO people that raid in it will be interested in raiding and keep them selfs informed about raiding, people who don't raid have nothing to do with the discussion at hand as they are not affected in any way shape or form.
    i can assure you and anyone who played on the day before mists launch that a huge amount of the playerbase doesnt even know about things like realm firsts or even mmo champion simply on the basis of tons of people every 10 minutes asking "when does mists come out"

    the majority of wow players dont even know about mmochampion or go on the forums the amount of people on here are the minority
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  16. #296
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    And I have a totally opposite experience, most people would know who was the leading guild for example.



    You seem to think that somehow people behave differently than other aspects of life just because it's an MMO, your average guy that likes hockey will watch it and keep him self informed about it because it interests him, same goes for an MMO people that raid in it will be interested in raiding and keep them selfs informed about raiding, people who don't raid have nothing to do with the discussion at hand as they are not affected in any way shape or form.
    But if you aren't concerned about non raiders, then who exactly are you afraid wont properly "appreciate" your achievement?
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  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Why does it have to be pre-nerf, why does there have to be a expire date on the hardest content? Why should people seeking a challenge be forced to raid more than everyone else in favor of the once not wanting to put in the time or effort getting access? It's awfully backwards if you ask me.
    Because there's an "expiry date" on everything, namely when the next raid tier, level cap or expansion hits. So it doesn't matter much. If you can't do content at all even with progressive nerfs, you can wait until the next expansion and steamroll the content then. So it's always about who is the fastest. Now I'm not saying you should raid 6 evenings a week and aim for world-first, but it's entirely possible if you're decent enough that you are able to clear the current HC content before nerfs are rolling in. And that is what you should aim for if you consider yourself a good player. Because why bother doing something on easy mode?

    How fast you clear have little to do with skill and much more to do with how much time you spend doing it, by your logic my guild who didn't beat the nerfs with 2 days a week was less skilled than a guild raiding 5 days a week that cleared it the day before the nerfs.
    Yes and no.
    My guild is able to clear current content pre-nerf, but we only raid 3 times a week, not 4 or even 5. Maybe it would even work with just two days, but then we'd be very slow.
    Spend any less time and you probably won't be able to beat the content anymore before the nerfs are coming.
    But that's not too much of a time investment to ask, is it?

    Would you support removal of LFR and Normal content after X amount of time as well? I mean if you didn't beat it fast enough you clearly shouldn't have the content available to you.
    What does this have to do with availability? Besides, LFR/Normal isn't for hardcore players anyway (well, besides the fact that they have to progress through Normal once).

    You do realize that the nerfs letting them access heroic modes and it's gear just compounds this issue right? The content isn't aimed at them in the first place so what happens when hey get access to the gear from it thought nerfs is that they beat normal of the next tier much faster than they would have otherwise and again stands around in heroic where they don't belong as it's not aimed for them.
    True, but that's almost a non-issue because the items from the next-tier heroic dungeons are almost as good. Not that good, but close.

    No one forces anyone to wipe hundreds of times on a boss, if you don't want to do it then don't.
    Yes, but it becomes a problem when players quit the game because they get overly frustrated when they always wipe at like 10% Boss HP, or whine on forums about perceived class imbalances.

    Yet you promote nerfs that removes the need for skill and effort to get the same rewards thus making skill and effort indistinguishable outside of inspecting dates of achievements.
    Skill and effort is almost indistinguishable *anyway* unless you inspect the player (achievements, dates) and also test them in-game. That's really the only way to be sure. Three examples where you can't simply tell if someone is good or not although it might appear so:
    - Some Gladiator level PvPers run around with the title "the Patient" just for fun, so that others may view them as newbies, which isn't true of course.
    - There are guilds boosting players to get their HC title and mount and what have you. But to really be sure that the player is good, you have to inspect him more closely or test him.
    - Account selling.

    So top 100 arena teams world wide had a even spread of classes then? I'd love to see those stats as I'm quite sure they would prove you wrong.
    Doesn't say much, because as long as there are a few other classes doing great as well, it can be considered balanced enough. I know that RLS, RMP and so on were very popular and strong, but it's not the only option to play at high levels. If you think you'd have to play one of the most popular classes or comps in order to be competitive, you're fooling yourself.
    You will of course never get 100% perfect balance, but as long as each class (ideally, every spec as well, but that's probably utopian) is capable of joining the highest ranks, it can be considered FINE.
    Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2012-10-06 at 10:18 AM.

  18. #298
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    Doesn't say much, because as long as there are a few other classes doing great as well, it can be considered balanced enough. I know that RLS, RMP and so on were very popular and strong, but it's not the only option to play at high levels. If you think you'd have to play one of the most popular classes or comps in order to be competitive, you're fooling yourself.
    You will of course never get 100% perfect balance, but as long as each class (ideally, every spec as well, but that's probably utopian) is capable of joining the highest ranks, it can be considered FINE.
    No, just being capable of appearing in the highest ranks isn't enough - the skill demand for each class also needs to be as close to equal as possible. Rogues were doing simple algebra while Warriors were doing fucking calculus in the last PvP season. Sure, if you were very talented and had good partners you could've made it as a Warrior, but you'd have to work a lot harder than the Rogue with the same skill level and quality of teammates would.

    That's not balanced, and it's why competitive PvP in WoW is and always has been a joke.

    There's no eSport demand for WoW (because people know it's garbage as a competitive game), so why even care about what the "pro" players say? In a game like WoW, you want to pander to the masses, and not the small sub-set of "hardcore" players. Millions of players play tons of random BGs every week, but very few play arena with the intention of being competitive.

    So why balance around arena when balancing around random BGs would result in a much more fun game for more people? I'd still be playing if random BGs didn't feel like such an exercise in futility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    i can assure you and anyone who played on the day before mists launch that a huge amount of the playerbase doesnt even know about things like realm firsts or even mmo champion simply on the basis of tons of people every 10 minutes asking "when does mists come out"

    the majority of wow players dont even know about mmochampion or go on the forums the amount of people on here are the minority
    And the majority don't raid either so what's you point? In fact it's around 20% of the player base if we are to trust Blizzards statement about DS clears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    But if you aren't concerned about non raiders, then who exactly are you afraid wont properly "appreciate" your achievement?
    You think just because players raid that they go inspect achievement dates? This is a discussion about raid progression, rewards from it and achievements, why do you think non raiders where of any relevance to the discussion in the first place.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 10:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    Because there's an "expiry date" on everything, namely when the next raid tier, level cap or expansion hits.
    Which is fine, there is a huge difference between full tier lifespan and the nerf to DS rolleing out after 2 months though, which was the shortest time span of un-nerfed heroics ever, especially considering it was launched a few weeks before Christmas which removed a couple of weeks of proper raiding.

    Linear raiding in BC didn't have this issue as the nerfs didn't come until new content was out.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    Yes and no.
    My guild is able to clear current content pre-nerf, but we only raid 3 times a week, not 4 or even 5. Maybe it would even work with just two days, but then we'd be very slow.
    Spend any less time and you probably won't be able to beat the content anymore before the nerfs are coming.
    But that's not too much of a time investment to ask, is it?
    So why is it ok that others dont' have to invest time/effort and skill in to it if the once seeking a challenge have to, we where at 6/8 hc in the 6 weeks we got to raid DS before the nerfs with 2 days a week, how could it possibly be considered ok that we got deprived of our content at that point with 7 months more to go of the tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    What does this have to do with availability? Besides, LFR/Normal isn't for hardcore players anyway (well, besides the fact that they have to progress through Normal once).
    Well if it's ok to remove the heroic content through nerfs then logically it must be equally ok to remove the bottom end of the spectrum no?

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    True, but that's almost a non-issue because the items from the next-tier heroic dungeons are almost as good. Not that good, but close.
    Which they are due to the huge i-lvl inflation we get due to it not being linear raiding, as I said it compounds the issue more than it already is.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    Yes, but it becomes a problem when players quit the game because they get overly frustrated when they always wipe at like 10% Boss HP, or whine on forums about perceived class imbalances.
    That's only an issue because Blizzard has held their hand to the point where they expect to down content that is out of their league in the first place, this instead of creating more content aimed for them in the first place. It's an entitlement issue nothing more, besides the system we have now is hemorrhaging players on the other end of the spectrum instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    Skill and effort is almost indistinguishable *anyway* unless you inspect the player (achievements, dates) and also test them in-game. That's really the only way to be sure. Three examples where you can't simply tell if someone is good or not although it might appear so:
    - Some Gladiator level PvPers run around with the title "the Patient" just for fun, so that others may view them as newbies, which isn't true of course.
    - There are guilds boosting players to get their HC title and mount and what have you. But to really be sure that the player is good, you have to inspect him more closely or test him.
    - Account selling.
    Sure but that's the issue with the system the way it is now, while some will buy their way through accounts or boosts that's a minor issue overall, not to mention much more viable for high end guilds if they dont' feel the rewards hold any real value, mostly you would be able to see if a player had good progression at a glance back in the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    Doesn't say much, because as long as there are a few other classes doing great as well, it can be considered balanced enough. I know that RLS, RMP and so on were very popular and strong, but it's not the only option to play at high levels. If you think you'd have to play one of the most popular classes or comps in order to be competitive, you're fooling yourself.
    You will of course never get 100% perfect balance, but as long as each class (ideally, every spec as well, but that's probably utopian) is capable of joining the highest ranks, it can be considered FINE.
    My point was that if lets say for argument sake that 50% is RMP then it is quite obviously the better choice, and while it is the better choice in a general sense it doesn't exclude that some exceptional players can beat all of them with another comp, it does however clearly indicate that composition plays a huge part in if you are successful or not.

    Now I'm no expert on WoW PvP nor do I care much about it so take my comments on that for what they are.
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  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    And the majority don't raid either so what's you point? In fact it's around 20% of the player base if we are to trust Blizzards statement about DS clears.



    You think just because players raid that they go inspect achievement dates? This is a discussion about raid progression, rewards from it and achievements, why do you think non raiders where of any relevance to the discussion in the first place.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 10:46 AM ----------



    Which is fine, there is a huge difference between full tier lifespan and the nerf to DS rolleing out after 2 months though, which was the shortest time span of un-nerfed heroics ever, especially considering it was launched a few weeks before Christmas which removed a couple of weeks of proper raiding.

    Linear raiding in BC didn't have this issue as the nerfs didn't come until new content was out.



    So why is it ok that others dont' have to invest time/effort and skill in to it if the once seeking a challenge have to, we where at 6/8 hc in the 6 weeks we got to raid DS before the nerfs with 2 days a week, how could it possibly be considered ok that we got deprived of our content at that point with 7 months more to go of the tier.



    Well if it's ok to remove the heroic content through nerfs then logically it must be equally ok to remove the bottom end of the spectrum no?



    Which they are due to the huge i-lvl inflation we get due to it not being linear raiding, as I said it compounds the issue more than it already is.



    That's only an issue because Blizzard has held their hand to the point where they expect to down content that is out of their league in the first place, this instead of creating more content aimed for them in the first place. It's an entitlement issue nothing more, besides the system we have now is hemorrhaging players on the other end of the spectrum instead.



    Sure but that's the issue with the system the way it is now, while some will buy their way through accounts or boosts that's a minor issue overall, not to mention much more viable for high end guilds if they dont' feel the rewards hold any real value, mostly you would be able to see if a player had good progression at a glance back in the day.



    My point was that if lets say for argument sake that 50% is RMP then it is quite obviously the better choice, and while it is the better choice in a general sense it doesn't exclude that some exceptional players can beat all of them with another comp, it does however clearly indicate that composition plays a huge part in if you are successful or not.

    Now I'm no expert on WoW PvP nor do I care much about it so take my comments on that for what they are.
    your reward is getting to be one of the strongest people in the game for a short while and titles for doing raids pre nerf. thats your reward plus the 100% mounts regular titles ect ect.

    if you're looking for recognition or respect from your peers you're playing this game for the wrong reasons
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