RNG has no place in PvP!!!

[Senathor]

They removed resists from PvP, albeit, not completely. But, resists are now only based off a possible racial resist of 1%. Classes with a high dodge are running around upwards of 25% or more and classes without a high dodge have 5% or greater. This, really has zero place in a skill-based gaming environment. If Blizzard really wants WoW to have a serious, E-sport following they need to stop making PvP, so RNG-based. It makes no sense at all why you would remove resists and spell-pen while keeping dodge and parries.

Making Hunter shots dodgeable in MoP is honestly, inexcusable. They should really hire people with experience creating balanced PvP. Currently, it seems like Blizzard is just throwing darts at a board. Here is a simple fact. Hunters have a horrible arena representation over 2200 with an average of 2-3%, barring season 5 where they reached an all time high of 8% before being nerfed into the ground (21 nerfs in a single patches following season 5.)

Why should a match in a skill-based environment ever be based off a roll of the RNG dice? How is this even considered fine by an intelligent human being?
If you miss a scatter you can easily lose a match because you failed to peel a rogue or "insert class here" buying time for your healer to land a heal or you can easily miss a kill because the healer dodged your scatter, messing your teams entire CC chain costing your team a possible kill opportunity?

I am flabbergasted at some of the design decisions that they make. MoP is headed in a good direction as far as PvP is concerned, but why would you take 10 steps forward and 7 steps back? I cannot ration this out. Removal of RNG from PvP would catapult WoW into a serious contender for E-sports.

I assume that everyone should play the same comp, with the same gear, with the same spec, with the same connection etc as well right?

---------- Post added 2012-09-16 at 09:05 PM ----------

just reforge expertise and stop bitching.

they fixed the agi/dodge scaling by making str/parry scaling the same. str classes now parry just as much as rogues/ferals used to dodge.

and hunters, who are btw, casters who can't be interrupted. can no longer be countered by sitting in their melee range. spending a tiny bit of itemization, for a HUGE quality of life change ( one i personally think wasn't needed) seems pretty fair to me.

Indeed. /10 chars

[Joey Ray III]

this is an rpg (well, whatever). don't want random numbers? go play an fps.

[Deleted]

this is an rpg (well, whatever). don't want random numbers? go play an fps.

Bad attitude if WoW PvP wants to be taken seriously.

[Dazzy]

Hunter shots should have ALWAYS been dodgeable/parryable, just because it took 8 years to fix doesn't mean it's not right.

[Rizendragon]

TWhy should a match in a skill-based environment ever be based off a roll of the RNG dice? How is this even considered fine by an intelligent human being?
If you miss a scatter you can easily lose a match because you failed to peel a rogue or "insert class here" buying time for your healer to land a heal or you can easily miss a kill because the healer dodged your scatter, messing your teams entire CC chain costing your team a possible kill opportunity?

Again this shit? Really, hunters need to adapt and stop whining.
PvP in WoW always was RNG-based (at least matchmaking, you can be matched against OPed comp, or UPed)

All classes need to gain stats to land an attack. Hunters now just come in line with all the other classes. Along with this "nerf" Hunters now have no minimum range, a serious "buff". Give and take guys.

By the way, as far as I know, Hunters are one of those Agi classes. You can attain the dreaded 25-30% avoidance as well. All while increasing your DPS output. That sounds totally terrible, while you're avoiding (dodge/parry) other players attacks, someone might be avoiding yours. That just isn't fair now, is it?

I think this pretty much sums it all up. Stop whining about needing expertise and adapt. Your class can also acquire the high dodge rate of all other agility classes, and if you're being dodged by healers that simply means you aren't expertise capped. Your ranged attacks cannot be parried (check your expertise stat under "ranged" next time you're on WoW) but they can be blocked (you've always been able to be blocked), so if you're being dodged by a plate or intel class then you simply need more expertise. Welcome to the world of all other physical classes this is how it should have been from the beginning.

[Sunslayer]

just reforge expertise and stop bitching.

Can you tell me how much expertise one might need to overcome 20% chance to dodge? I'm wondering at this very moment if you have even the most infinitesimal amount of knowledge regarding expertise/dodge and PvP. Please, I invite you to prove me wrong.

[Gandrake]

just reforge expertise and stop bitching.

you make so many great suggestions

I play DK, ENhancement Shaman... Because I think RNG and making Hunter shots dodgeable is moronic, I play a Hunter?

the point is that there had to be some kind of penalty for the removal of the deadzone. Hunters are the only ranged physical class, and believe me, I feel like that is stretching the definition a bit when a Hunter's pet is actually doing DoT equivalent damage on a swing timer.

you got shadowburned.

That's the (destruction)warlock equivalent to execute.

You're telling me that Warlocks are OP because you dipped below 20% and he finished you off?

You can even see second wind ticking in your combat log.

People bitched about Hammer of Wrath for years. ranged execute! ranged execute! nerf!

1 Burning Ember is not high enough cost for a ranged execute with 100% cs tacked onto it.

Welcome to being melee. You get the close range, you get the avoidance table. If you want to spam giant instant crits through armor and avoidance at any range, then play a mage.

word

[kail]

Would u consider crits RNG? And Parry? Hell lets fix those as well.
If u want a game that's free of RNG, play an FPS game or chess. There will always be some form of luck played into MMO/RPGs/DotA games, and frankly I welcome it (I don't even like the changes they made to resists).

Take it you don't enjoy Texas Hold'em.

1 Burning Ember is not high enough cost for a ranged execute with 100% cs tacked onto it.

100% CS? Crit? Shadowburn doesn't have that. You must be thinking Chaos Bolt.

[Gandrake]

It's a spell, it ignores armor.

edit: CS = Colossus Smash

[Kraenen]

just because RPGs typically have RNG, doesn't mean that makes it a good mechanic for skill. more randomization = less control = less skill factor.

[kosechi]

Can you tell me how much expertise one might need to overcome 20% chance to dodge? I'm wondering at this very moment if you have even the most infinitesimal amount of knowledge regarding expertise/dodge and PvP. Please, I invite you to prove me wrong.

loooool

right now you need 3% expertise to push dodges off the table against casters. thats not a lot of rating.
if you want more protection against dodge/parry from agi and str users then get more expertise.

last season no one was more punished by dodges then rets were due to our resource generation mechanics. i did fine. if you are blaming your own lack of success on dodges you might want to consider getting better.

[Nyaldee]

Removal of RNG from PvP would catapult WoW into a serious contender for E-sports.

No it won't becouse:
1. WoW gameplay is too stale - often you're watching games for quite some time and nothing happens. There's barely anything to comment on other then cd's being poped.
2. WoW gameplay isn't entertaining for viewers, you can barely tell anything about ppls micro unless you watch them 1st person. And even then 90% of the time you see players repeatedly spaming few buttons.
3. Game involve almost zero strategy - you're going in with fixed class composition against fixed class composition. There's no variability exept changing tactics depending on other team composition (and it's almost always smth like: ok we train X and if what switch to Y).
4. Last but not least - Blizzard doesn't support PvP in its games. Even SC 2 pvp scene is living of different organizations sponsorship mostly. Just compare Blizz support for WoW/SC2 to Valve support for Dota 2: 10+ times less prize fund, worse organization (starting from streams and ending with players accomodation). If you watched recent Dota 2 International you know what i'm talking about. And even thought i dislike LoL i must admit that Riot support for their game is miles above Blizzard. Hilarious how company with most financial resources does next to nothing for promoting competitions in it's games, but spend serious cash on TV/Net adds. Just shows that Blizz cares about it's games as long as they sells or keep subscription base.

Atm MOBA games (especially Dota 2) are probably most serious esports out there - they involve strategy/tactics/economy/micro, there's always action you can comment, ppls always comming with new lineups and new heroes are being pumped out further improving gameplay diversity. I really enjoy watching Dota2, even thought i haven't played MOBA games after HoN - it's simply fun to watch. And guess what - there's RNG in Dota2: crits, dodges, some skills being % based, even stun durations being rng based for some heroes.

So if you're blaming WoW failure as esport on RNG you're doing it wrong, it's Blizzard fault for not supporting its own creation enough and a simple fact that WoW wasn't designed with PvP in mind. Imo to make MMO a viable esport you've to intergrate fighting gameplay (Tekken, Soul Calibur, MK etc.) into MMO, but no1 is even close to it.

[Deleted]

Welcome to being melee. You get the close range, you get the avoidance table. If you want to spam giant instant crits through armor and avoidance at any range, then play a mage.

This is pretty much all there is to it. Rogues and ferals (and, to a certain extent even hunters) have been dodging throwdowns, MSes, crusader strikes, hamstrings, etc. since whenever said abilities were implemented.

I do agree it should've been changed years ago, the fact hunter shots are now going to have a chance to be dodged is perfectly balanced, the problem is that it's quite ridiculous for agi users to have such an advantage over melee when compared to all other classes - dodge, parry and miss should be the exact same for every class and every spec, asides maybe the 2% miss NE racial and even then it's really annoying to have your mortal strike miss and the druid heal to full because of it. But meh, it's a racial and it's not nearly as game breaking as agi dodge.

[Deleted]

I like that you defend removal of RNG from PvP by complaining that people would try to dodge or parry being attacked. Those are legitiamte tactics a person would take in a fight--to dodge when someone tries to hit you. You're basically saying take out RNG because it does not belong where there is skill, nor do the basics of fighting (trying to NOT get hit, so you dodge or block or something of that nature). If your belief is that this is supposed to be totally skill-based, thne you should have to do more than just attack the player, but be responsible for blocking and doding and parrying yourself, not by RNG, right? Well, at that point, it's not WoW.

You're basically saying change how WoW combat works because you do not like RNG. Guess what? The core of WoW's combat uses RNG.

I guess he talks about Guild Wars 2 pvp system, but guess what, no BM hunters getting opponents down in 3 seconds there. So I guess all he really wants is take them down in 2 seconds instead of 3.

[Uricidea]

Can you tell me how much expertise one might need to overcome 20% chance to dodge? I'm wondering at this very moment if you have even the most infinitesimal amount of knowledge regarding expertise/dodge and PvP. Please, I invite you to prove me wrong.

It's like 7.95% Expertise to be Raid Boss Capped. It is significantly less going against a Level 85 (Read: Other Players). Just like it always has been.

[Googolplex]

Lets remove Crits too, they are too RNG! And while we are at it, lets remove every single proc as well...

[Uricidea]

This is pretty much all there is to it. Rogues and ferals (and, to a certain extent even hunters) have been dodging throwdowns, MSes, crusader strikes, hamstrings, etc. since whenever said abilities were implemented.

I do agree it should've been changed years ago, the fact hunter shots are now going to have a chance to be dodged is perfectly balanced, the problem is that it's quite ridiculous for agi users to have such an advantage over melee when compared to all other classes - dodge, parry and miss should be the exact same for every class and every spec, asides maybe the 2% miss NE racial and even then it's really annoying to have your mortal strike miss and the druid heal to full because of it. But meh, it's a racial and it's not nearly as game breaking as agi dodge.

The extra Avoidance Agi users get is some part of the over-all balancing of the game. Agi classes don't have as much Mitigation through Armor as the Stg/Plate wearers have, so to balance that they are given extra Avoidance. The mechanics of the game are all balanced through differing means for the different class types. One to one comparisons is not an effective argument, nor a viable solution.

[Deleted]

Ah man i just cried from laughing

[Deleted]

The extra Avoidance Agi users get is some part of the over-all balancing of the game. Agi classes don't have as much Mitigation through Armor as the Stg/Plate wearers have, so to balance that they are given extra Avoidance. The mechanics of the game are all balanced through differing means for the different class types. One to one comparisons is not an effective argument, nor a viable solution.

Yes it is. Just give everyone the same amount of armor. It doesn't matter. It's just gotten a little ridiculous over the last few years with rogues and ferals dodging 50 attacks in a row simply because of their main stat.

[Imbashiethz]

Hunter's, like melee, should be able to avoid dodges by shooting at people from behind. Playing rogue has a ton of RNG involved, but this is close to zero because of shadowstep & cheap shot, step + kidney, cheap shot + go behind. Blind is now also dodgeable btw. The most important rogue spell is on a 3minute cooldown and can be dodged 30% of the time vs other rogues, hunters, monks & druids. Fear, polymorph, cyclone etc can never fail. They always land. How is this fair blizz?