Avatar vs Bloodbath vs Storm Bolt discussion

[Nyaldee]

In RBG PvP Bloodbath+Bladestorm will outperfrom Avatar becouse their combined cd is 2ce shorter and that combo should deal dmg similar to combustion (and we all know how it hurts), besides 6 sec total cc imunity isn't something to sneeze on. In arena setting imo talent choice would depend on what setup you're playing - for example stormbolt into heroic throw is unavoidable 6 sec cc on healer, need that hard cc to prevent your druid dieing to melee cleaves - shockwave. Overall unlike for most classes we've plenty of choices to make and compared to probably all other classes we've best talent tree aviable.

[Deleted]

I have the feeling that Bloodbath will become much stronger than the other choices once we are geared for the following reasons:

...you won't need a filler anymore because your BT crits frequently
...your special attacks will only hit harder, making the bleed stronger because of good scaling
...it works well in AOE situations as well as single target ones, making it the best "cookie-cutter" choice.

I don't really see why it will scale better than a flat 20% damage increase = s

[(Insert Name Here)]

...your special attacks will only hit harder, making the bleed stronger because of good scaling

And storm bolt doesn't scale with gear?
And 20% increase to damage doesn't become an incremental increase as you get better gear?

[Deleted]

They all scale with gear, so I doubt that'd become a decisive arguement in which one to choose.

I finally got around to checking out Landsoul's video, where he does state 'take Stormbolt for bosses'. However there are no explainations -why- that is so. Purely looking at the 'oooh big numbers shiny!!' factor of Stormbolt I can see why it looks very appealing, but it doesn't take the loss of the gcd into account, or the fact that it doesn't have any synergy with the execute phase, where the other two do have that.

I see lots of people stating claims without backing any of it up, based on personal 'I think this' or 'I use that'. So far I haven't seen any calculations besides my own poor attempts that gives us some proper ways of determining which one would perform the best.

As for raw dps increases, I think we can all agree that Bloodbath outscales Avatar (reasons listed earlier), the only thing Avatar has on Bloodbath is the added rage generation which would allow one more 30-rage ability. Ofc as prot you'd take Avatar as that grants rage, and rage is defense.

Has anyone done a bunch of Shattrath Patchwerk-dummy runs with each of the abilities and saved those logs? We'll have to look at total dps, as the dmg done per ability would give an unclear picture. Avatar doesn't show up, Stormbolt consumes a gcd -during Colossus Smash- where another high-damage ability would be used, only Bloodbath is easy to put a label on.

[Lefrog]

I see lots of people stating claims without backing any of it up, based on personal 'I think this' or 'I use that'. So far I haven't seen any calculations besides my own poor attempts that gives us some proper ways of determining which one would perform the best.

I think the reason for this is that there are so many factors involved that it requires sims to properly gauge, and is entirely based on fight length, mechanics, current gear..etc etc.

For fights that last between x.00-x.29 seconds you get the same number of bloodbath and stormbolts, for fights from x.30-x.59 you get an extra stormbolt. Bloodbath scales with haste, while stormbolt doesn't, so the more haste you are forced to wear the better Bloodbath becomes. Also, the more crit you gain the higher chance you have of having 2 RB procs during your CS window and so it becomes balancing CS > BT > RB > RB (Stormbolt) vs CS > BT > RB > WS (Stormbolt).

And this is all ignoring fights with adds, because bloodbath on multiple targets is awesome, like the stone guard.

[Nobleshield]

As of now I'm using Avatar in Prot, and Bloodbath for Arms.

[Deleted]

I think Stormbolt is good, don't get me wrong, but I'm having a hard time seeing it better than the alternatives primairly because you would need to delay Stormbolt by 10seconds every time just so it lines up with Colossus Smash. Not to mention that on a CS in which you have "good" RNG and don't need the GCD filler you trade damage for damage, and then you've got SMF on top of that which has less weapon damage for Stormbolt to increase.

Personally I think Avatar will be best as Fury on any fight with a fight duration inbetween 6 and 8 minutes, and bloodbath on the rest. If not right out of the gate, soon after when crit and setbonuses come into play.

[Deathcries]

Personally I think Avatar will be best as Fury on any fight with a fight duration inbetween 6 and 8 minutes, and bloodbath on the rest. If not right out of the gate, soon after when crit and setbonuses come into play.

I agree about avatar. I did 4 minute rounds on the training dummy a set of three test using both (didn't do any math I just did what people on these forums said to do on the rotation.) Out of the three times I used stormbolt and three times I used avatar, my overall damage was better using avatar then it did when I used storm bolt, using the proper rotation.

[Deleted]

I don't really see why it will scale better than a flat 20% damage increase = s

You are right though, of course they will all scale, it was a clear assumption that Bloodbath will progressively become stronger than the other ones, however I have no mathematical facts to back my claim up.

I guess we will just have to wait and see. On the other hand, Blizzard did an awfully good job by trying to balance them and making the choice situational, it bothers me to death thinking that I might be "better off" with another talent that I haven't picked.

:-(

[Hypnozis]

I personally think which ability we chose will depend on the timing of the fight, if it is >3min where we can get in avatar in the begining and then avatar during the execute phase with more excutes, i think it will be superior. However on a shorter fight where there could be some aoe, bb will be the better choice. I know i dont have any calculation to support these, but these are just my opinions based on what I have read on the forums and other posts relating to the topic.

[PHOENIXZERO]

Yeah, I tried BB when I hit 90 and after a bit of testing went to Avatar but I can definitely see that changing once we're raid geared and able to put out a ton more damage, especially when we get out 4pc and halve the CD on Recklessness. Have yet to try Stormbolt, should probably get on that.

[Calamari]

I finally got around to checking out Landsoul's video, where he does state 'take Stormbolt for bosses'. However there are no explainations -why- that is so. Purely looking at the 'oooh big numbers shiny!!' factor of Stormbolt I can see why it looks very appealing, but it doesn't take the loss of the gcd into account, or the fact that it doesn't have any synergy with the execute phase, where the other two do have that.

Stormbolt also has no synergy with the abilities of the AoE tier of the talent tree, Shockwave/DR/Bladestorm. Also in PvE it's quite frustrating when your target turns out to be stunnable, and Stormbolt only hits for 100% weapon damage instead of 400%.

I kind of wish Stormbolt would explode for AoE damage or something, for AoE heavy fights Bloodbath and Avatar are simply so much better right now.