1. #1
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
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    Vengence and gear

    Can i just geta clarification on this: i've heard people say in a number of threads that they are experiencing low dps BECAUSE they massively outgear the content and their excellent mitigation prevents vengence building up.
    My understanding that mitigation doesnt affect vengence, as the AP is calculated before it is applied to the damage taken. Am i incorrect?

  2. #2
    If you avoid a hit (dodge, parry), you don't get vengeance. You get the timer on your existing vengeance extended. But if you have a streak of avoidance on the pull, you have zero vengeance to start and so threat could start to get tricky.

    I think you are right that mitigating damage through armor, block, damage reduction etc, does not prevent vengeance building up.

  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Yep. Avoidance doesn't give you vengeance. Only mitigation (block, absorb, armor, etc), and is calculated before. So if you get hit for 10,000 and block 3,000, your AP is still 2% of that 10,000.

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  4. #4
    It's only an issue now in pretty much BiS gear, i can see them making adjustment to it throughout MoP, but in a honestly it just makes us have to make small adjustment so it's fine.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    If you avoid a hit (dodge, parry), you don't get vengeance. You get the timer on your existing vengeance extended. But if you have a streak of avoidance on the pull, you have zero vengeance to start and so threat could start to get tricky.
    Having almost 50% avoidance in heroic raiding gear is pretty crappy in dungeons. I may or may not have pressed the sit button a few times to do extra damage...

  6. #6
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlolz View Post
    Having almost 50% avoidance in heroic raiding gear is pretty crappy in dungeons. I may or may not have pressed the sit button a few times to do extra damage...
    Do it without pants.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    | [MoP]Ret Paladin Guide | Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

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  7. #7
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    Do it without pants.
    Exactly. For every pull, if you're not doing enough DPS or the healer is getting bored, remove a piece of gear (weapon and shield last, obviously).

  8. #8
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
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    Another reason why i think stacking mastery over avoidance is of benefit to us...we'll do more damage.
    and stop removing gear! just use dps gear :/. The only thing youd want to get rid of is avoidance stats surely to prevent that dodge/parry streak at the start of pulls.

  9. #9
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    I read most of pali moves is spell powered based a long time ago..am i wrong? if This is tru this might be where pali's are taking a hit compared to other classes. Vengence gives us 2% unmittigated damage but Guarded by the light only gives us 50% of Attack power as spell power. If thats tru (just theory here) would that be as fair as the other tanks? i don't know other tank classes beyond there killing me on damage.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    Do it without pants.
    That's silly as mentioned before because losing your pants means losing stats.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by dragconus View Post
    I read most of pali moves is spell powered based a long time ago..am i wrong? if This is tru this might be where pali's are taking a hit compared to other classes. Vengence gives us 2% unmittigated damage but Guarded by the light only gives us 50% of Attack power as spell power. If thats tru (just theory here) would that be as fair as the other tanks? i don't know other tank classes beyond there killing me on damage.
    that's wrong. nearly every paladin spell is based on the higher of AP and SP. and besides, CS, SoTR, HotR, AS, SoT and Judgement are either based on AP or weapon damage.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-20 at 08:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlolz View Post
    That's silly as mentioned before because losing your pants means losing stats.
    that's the point of doing it without pants. if you lose dodge and parry, you're avoiding less and taking more damage, therefore you're having more vengeance. back in WotLK, during 3.3, i tanked in ret gear, or part ret part prot because I still had 30K HP in ret gear, most healers were overgearing heroics by miles and they were shit easy anyway.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  12. #12
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    Another reason why i think stacking mastery over avoidance is of benefit to us...we'll do more damage.
    and stop removing gear! just use dps gear :/. The only thing youd want to get rid of is avoidance stats surely to prevent that dodge/parry streak at the start of pulls.
    Where's the fun in that though?!
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    | [MoP]Ret Paladin Guide | Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    that's wrong. nearly every paladin spell is based on the higher of AP and SP. and besides, CS, SoTR, HotR, AS, SoT and Judgement are either based on AP or weapon damage.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-20 at 08:54 PM ----------



    that's the point of doing it without pants. if you lose dodge and parry, you're avoiding less and taking more damage, therefore you're having more vengeance. back in WotLK, during 3.3, i tanked in ret gear, or part ret part prot because I still had 30K HP in ret gear, most healers were overgearing heroics by miles and they were shit easy anyway.
    Except you lose the Str portion as well. And depending on the pats, you may have reforged exp/hit stats as well. Much easier to just sit or turn your back to mobs to get extra Vengeance.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlolz View Post
    Except you lose the Str portion as well. And depending on the pats, you may have reforged exp/hit stats as well. Much easier to just sit or turn your back to mobs to get extra Vengeance.
    I feel like you've missed the fact that doing it without pants is an old joke based on Spiritual Attunement which gave the pally mana based on incoming healing.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    I feel like you've missed the fact that doing it without pants is an old joke based on Spiritual Attunement which gave the pally mana based on incoming healing.
    Sarcasm is hard to detect over text. Btw I use to tank without pants back then when incoming damage was too low to keep my mana up too.

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