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  1. #1

    Why dosn't leveling, work more like PvP?

    As in, why have levels at all?

    I really found this when leveling my first charcter, but now onto my second it feels even worse. Unless you visit other areas away from your racial path, you have to grind out Dynamic Events to gain enough experience to level.

    I'm currently 2 bars into level 29. I've got 100% completion on the first two Norn zones, along with Hoelbrak. I've explored a little of the 15-25 Charr zone and have two professions at level 113 and 56.

    My very next story quest is level 30, but considering they reward you with about 50% of a level i'd still be under-leveled even if I did finish it. The lowest level heart, for the Norn zone i'm in, is level 31. Having just completed one of the Dyanmic Events there (the find eggs, then defend the chefs ones), I got about 2 bars of a level.

    Now, am I doing something wrong, or is Arenanet? Why do they even have levels in this game at all, considering you can down-level and go back to complete "old" content? I'd much prefer that anything you did still gave you experience, but that it only gave you a skill point upon "leveling". Maybe a trait too, but then if all your traits are unlocked in PvP, why not have that from the start in PvE? If I want to go to Orr as the very first thing as a level 1 character, why not let me?

    Why, in a subscription less game, that's meant to be very story driven, am I being "forced" to level and spend time just looking for experience, rather than playing the game? For my Norn, I really wanted to just complete the Norn areas, nothing else. My only options now, are grind out Dynamic Events at 1-2 bars a go, for 2 levels, or visit another area. Neithers very apealing.

    Why do you think Arenanet kept in this almost archaic system of levels and not just do away with them all together?

  2. #2
    So what your asking is just start the game completed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You're up in arms about something you never had and never knew you were going to have until more recent times, now you're pissed off because it turns out you might not get it, even though nobody ever actually said you were getting it anyway?
    Turns out painting a bunch of circles on the floor is all it takes to totally trivialize an encounter designed by Blizzard's dev team. I guess it must be pretty scary when your best work is broken down and utterly defeated by trigonometry.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord flarecde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demox View Post
    So what your asking is just start the game completed?
    Or change the definition of completion. Levels barely exist in this game as it is, except to act as a gating mechanism. It would just make the whole game "endgame" content. And if that isn't fun... well, something is functionally wrong.
    ~ flarecde
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  4. #4
    Moderator Shamanic's Avatar
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    Now, am I doing something wrong, or is Arenanet? Why do they even have levels in this game at all, considering you can down-level and go back to complete "old" content? I'd much prefer that anything you did still gave you experience, but that it only gave you a skill point upon "leveling".
    If you want to get experience, and a skill point, that's still pretty much levelling, even if they took out the arbitrary "number" of what level you are. So I suppose what you want to do is just be free to experience any area of the world from level 2, without each section being limited by a minimum level (since no zone is limited by a maximum level) ?

    I think it would be hard to balance and I suspect it would leave a lot of people feeling a little lost as it would be so less structured. You wouldn't have gear that progressed with level so you'd either have to grind increasing amounts of karma for better levelling gear (which people are already complaining about at level 80), or there would be little to no gear progression at all (again, which some people are already complaining about at level 80).

    From a PvE viewpoint I personally like the feeling of progressing from zone to zone, getting better gear with levels and finally hitting "maximum" level and feeling like the whole world is now open to me. I don't think either you, or Arenanet are doing anything "wrong" exactly. There are usually two zones overlapping for a zone so you shouldn't feel like you're trapped in a certain zone and having to grind, and crafting gives a shitload of exp (10 levels per craft). You can also run dungeons, at the moment for example running CM story (level 40) gives 7 bars of a level for exp for completion! For some people levelling is going to feel like a grind though and others, progressing through the levels and steadily unlocking more content gives them a motivation to play.

    I can kinda see the advantage of an open world but I mean if you were level 1 and wanted to go to Orr, with no gear progression and you hadn't unlocked any skill points, how would they balance it so that you can still have fun there, along with people who've got the best gear and all the skills? It works in sPvP because you literally have everything unlocked and you have the same gear from the start... so for it to work in open PvE then I don't think it would work with you saying that you still gain exp and gain skill points as you go, I think they'd need to give everyone everything to balance it and to me that would take most of the feeling of PvE progression away from me.
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  5. #5
    Yeah, imagine the people who clamor with their "Where's the endgame" if this were in. They wouldn't even bother.

    People like progression. There's a sense of accomplishment, and the idea of trying to take on higher level content at a level not recommended. I myself love a good challenge, and you can offer yourself more of one if you're below a certain level.

    While we're at it, why don't we just give you 100% map completion, all your skills, ever material you need to make legendary items...not to sound like a jerk, but that's what happens. Give in inch, people want a mile, and then want to rocket to the moon. Blast off!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by flarecde View Post
    Or change the definition of completion. Levels barely exist in this game as it is, except to act as a gating mechanism. It would just make the whole game "endgame" content. And if that isn't fun... well, something is functionally wrong.
    Feel free to come up with an idea that will revolutionize RPGs then. Because a lot of other people want that but won't do anything to change it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You're up in arms about something you never had and never knew you were going to have until more recent times, now you're pissed off because it turns out you might not get it, even though nobody ever actually said you were getting it anyway?
    Turns out painting a bunch of circles on the floor is all it takes to totally trivialize an encounter designed by Blizzard's dev team. I guess it must be pretty scary when your best work is broken down and utterly defeated by trigonometry.

  7. #7
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxlor View Post
    As in, why have levels at all?

    I really found this when leveling my first charcter, but now onto my second it feels even worse. Unless you visit other areas away from your racial path, you have to grind out Dynamic Events to gain enough experience to level.

    I'm currently 2 bars into level 29. I've got 100% completion on the first two Norn zones, along with Hoelbrak. I've explored a little of the 15-25 Charr zone and have two professions at level 113 and 56.
    I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this argument, no matter how many people try to sell it to me. People might want to tiptoe around it, but you are doing something wrong. It's called not playing most of the game. To give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you rolled on a ghost town server or play at extremely awkward hours of the day/night. In that case, maybe you are just not seeing the hundreds of DE's that pop up all around you...in that case, I'm sorry but you have really bad luck.

    The whole concept of the game is to be flighty, to pop from place to place experiencing what is going on. Not knocking down heart after heart and every other little tick on the map and think that you will magically level. See you are complaining about having levels at all, but yet you are reinforcing behavior created by standard leveling. Arena Net have already 'done away' with traditional leveling by giving you a world to roam in while you level. You don't follow a checklist to hit 80, you just do stuff.

    Hell, there are at least 3 zones for every level range that you can travel to and experience new content while you level.

    I have leveled one character to max, one to fifty, and a handful to the 20-30s. I have not once been underleveled on a single character beyond the starting zones. I do at least 50% of the DE's that pop up along the way (if they aren't bugged) and HANG AROUND after they are done waiting to see what happens next. In the meantime of just figuring out what is going on around me, I'm herbing, mining, cutting down trees, and killing anything I feel like.

    Step outside the box and stop trying to follow a formula for 'leveling' and you will find that a)leveling doesn't 'matter' and b) you will level just fine.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamanic View Post
    I think it would be hard to balance and I suspect it would leave a lot of people feeling a little lost as it would be so less structured. You wouldn't have gear that progressed with level so you'd either have to grind increasing amounts of karma for better levelling gear (which people are already complaining about at level 80), or there would be little to no gear progression at all (again, which some people are already complaining about at level 80).
    I don't think you would get lost. You'd have your personal story to follow. As for balancing, every monster would have a very definate time-to-kill. As it is now, a level 5 pirate has different stats to a level 80. They probably have a sliding scale for how this works, but why not just one set of stats, for each monster type?

    I suppose what i'd sugest, is something like Monster Hunter. Maybe even gear would have no stats at all and it'd be done just like pvp through sigils.

    I've got no problem with leveling, or having to take your time, or following a path, but when the game goes "here, follow this path!" but dosn't give you enough experience to keep going down that path, it's abit frustrating. I'm in no hurry to get another level 80, it's just the constant zone swapping grates me, since there dosn't seem to be any reason behind it, or even a need TO keep swapping zones. If my story is telling me to stay in the Norn lands, how come i've got to go visit the Charr, Asura, Slyvari or Human in order to keep following my story?

  9. #9
    Dreadlord flarecde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demox View Post
    Feel free to come up with an idea that will revolutionize RPGs then. Because a lot of other people want that but won't do anything to change it.
    If I could think of one, I surely wouldn't be sharing it for free on the internet :P. I'm sure someone more inventive that I will, because trends seem to indicate the general populous is getting tired of the current paradigms.
    ~ flarecde
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    The whole concept of the game is to be flighty, to pop from place to place experiencing what is going on. Not knocking down heart after heart and every other little tick on the map and think that you will magically level. See you are complaining about having levels at all, but yet you are reinforcing behavior created by standard leveling. Arena Net have already 'done away' with traditional leveling by giving you a world to roam in while you level. You don't follow a checklist to hit 80, you just do stuff.
    That's the thing though, it's really tough to just explore where you want, when you've got a level and monsters do too. I remember hitting up the 55-65 Human area on my Asura and someone said the dragon was up. Fantastic! I ran all the way down south of the zone, only to find all my hits were glancing blows and most of the monsters just steam rolled me there. In the end I just hang back and rezzed people. Now, that's abit extreme, but if there wern't levels at all, i'd been able to participate 100%.

    As for my play times, it's normally in the evenings on a heavy/full population server, Underworld. On my Asura I litterally did just look at the map, tick things off and run on. On my Norn i've been trying my hardest not too, but nothing ever seems to pop up. The only working Dynamic Events at my level, are the egg collection that leads to a defence and one to assault some dredge. There's a skritt one near me that's bugged and another that involves an ice golem but there's about 20 grawl surrounding it and very few people seem to pass by there.

    So either, i'm missing tons of Dynamic Events, or they're not giving out enough experience. I mean, why do hearts have levels by them? I figured that you go to that heart, that's based on your level and complete it. The only problem is, you never seem to gain enough experience to reach the level of the NEXT heart. I always feel about 2-3 levels behind.

  11. #11
    Leveling it sort of needed for balancing and learning curve.

    For instance if levels didn't exist, that would mean all mobs/events/hearts in the world where balanced to be played by someone who just created this character. This means that you either a) have access to everything a profession has (no unlocking weapons, no skill points needed to unlock skills, all traits points given to you) or b) you just don't have those things. Problem with this is, people still want character progression, to a point. They want to feel like they are building their character until finally his build is just what they want.

    The learning curve problem stems from this too. You can't just throw all the abilities, all the builds, all the skill points at a new player right off the bat. They would have no idea what to do, and more often then not, throw their hands up in the air in frustration. Having levels allows people to grow very intimate with their profession and all the quirks about it.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodrin View Post
    Leveling it sort of needed for balancing and learning curve.

    The learning curve problem stems from this too. You can't just throw all the abilities, all the builds, all the skill points at a new player right off the bat. They would have no idea what to do, and more often then not, throw their hands up in the air in frustration. Having levels allows people to grow very intimate with their profession and all the quirks about it.
    Except this dosn't happen in pvp. Make a new character, hit level 2, bam. All gear, all skills, all traits, straight away. If Areanet figures players can work things out for themselves in pvp, why not pve too? Maybe this is me being jealous and wanting what "the other guys" have. Even though "the other guys" don't really exist :P

    Either way, why does this game, or any game, need levels? What purpose does it serve? It can't serve any, if Arenanet feels comfortable giving people that want to play pvp EVERYTHING, but "force" people to level up if they choose to pve.

  13. #13
    I am inclined to sort of agree. I like what guild wars has done in general. I do however have 2 major gripes with the game.

    1) It was not ready for release, the higher level zones have a shocking amount of bugs. It will get fixed in time. I can understand a DE or two bugging out, but an example is Fields of Ruin having 3-4 events simultaniously bug out and then 2 hearts not have mobs spawn for the completion, so you have to grind picking flowers to finish. It frustrated me at a part of the game I'd normally be having a blast.

    2) This one is on topic. I feel the zone flow is.... poorly done. I don't mind having to go to Charr, then human then sylvari areas. The doesn't phase me in the least. What does phase me is when I'm getting really into a zone, and complete all the hearts for my level and 3-4 levels above. To find that the next step is mobs 6-8 levels higher than me in the same zone. So I have to leave the zone and come back when I am a more appropriate level. This kinda ruined a lot of immersion that I would usually have.

    I did find a way around this. I don't step into zones until I am at least half of the zone level gap. E.g. Level 55-65 zone I wouldn't touch without being level 60. If the somehow fixed the flow a bit, I don't think you'd be having the same troubles. This I suspect they will get right over time. It's just annoying to deal with that now

  14. #14
    In that case, maybe you are just not seeing the hundreds of DE's that pop up all around you...in that case, I'm sorry but you have really bad luck.
    See, I hear this a lot, but I sure as hell don't see it. Especially once you hit the mid-levels and so many events are bugged. I find it hard to believe when I hear people claim they NEVER repeated an event.

  15. #15
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxlor View Post
    That's the thing though, it's really tough to just explore where you want, when you've got a level and monsters do too. I remember hitting up the 55-65 Human area on my Asura and someone said the dragon was up. Fantastic! I ran all the way down south of the zone, only to find all my hits were glancing blows and most of the monsters just steam rolled me there. In the end I just hang back and rezzed people. Now, that's abit extreme, but if there wern't levels at all, i'd been able to participate 100%.
    Unfortunately in an MMO, and especially one so massive, you need to have warm bodies in specific clusters in order to increase everyone's success and enjoyment. If anyone could go anywhere, they would have no way to control the initial flow of the game. This is one of the tenets of MMO design we write off as laziness or being status quo, but we forget that it was designed with a specific purpose. It's not so much a path in GW2, but a limiting pen. You have to just herd some people in the right places for the right amount of time so that together they can move on to the next pen.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaxlor View Post
    As for my play times, it's normally in the evenings on a heavy/full population server, Underworld. On my Asura I litterally did just look at the map, tick things off and run on. On my Norn i've been trying my hardest not too, but nothing ever seems to pop up. The only working Dynamic Events at my level, are the egg collection that leads to a defence and one to assault some dredge. There's a skritt one near me that's bugged and another that involves an ice golem but there's about 20 grawl surrounding it and very few people seem to pass by there.
    I am starting to notice a higher prevalence of bugs and it is very annoying. The problem is a lot of dbags are intentionally bugging out the encounters. I watched one guy somehow getting cows out of the farm where you feed them bugs in order to prevent anyone from completing that heart. Unfortunately there is no 'adequate' way to report this kind of behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaxlor View Post
    So either, i'm missing tons of Dynamic Events, or they're not giving out enough experience. I mean, why do hearts have levels by them? I figured that you go to that heart, that's based on your level and complete it. The only problem is, you never seem to gain enough experience to reach the level of the NEXT heart. I always feel about 2-3 levels behind.
    You are very level headed, so I'm just going to assume instead of being ridiculous and trying to blast through content you are having a very hard time of things. I have personally not experienced this, but I would suggest to go to the Mists, then Lion's Arch, and then on to the next starter/15-25 zones. It really helps pile up the crafting mats, helps build your map completion anyways, and is probably a part of the design of the game. True the leveling is 'slower' in terms of experience, but you are more powerful than when you are actually that level. I'm not one-shotting *everything* on my warrior, but I can plow down mass groups of mobs without dying in a short time. I can solo most of the DE's and even champions with ranged abilities.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    SNIP
    I'd not actually thought about the herding aspect, that's quite a good way to look at it. I suppose to pvp, everyone's herded into the match making system and that's very easy to control. With pve, unless you're forcing people to stay in zones or only unlocking certain ones based on story progression a "no levels" mmo would be quite hard to get people to explore.

    It's bad enough now in some of the low level zones getting enough people to group up and fight off some of the Dyanmic Events. I do love it though, when you're the only one there, near death and them - BAM! - 10 more people turn up and turn the tide of battle. I'm in no means trying to bash the game, I'm loving it. I wouldn't be onto my second character otherwise with about 3 more planned.

    I think the question I asked, you pretty much answered, but i'd love to know if there was a better way. Or even if Arenanet considered other ways.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome Nerdpride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    See, I hear this a lot, but I sure as hell don't see it. Especially once you hit the mid-levels and so many events are bugged. I find it hard to believe when I hear people claim they NEVER repeated an event.
    I find this hard to believe.
    In 55+ zones i found so many events that i felt i was levelling too fast. In fact i've got to 80 without ever setting a foot in Iron Marches, Fireheart Rise and Frostgorge. And yes, i found some bugged SPs and one or two bugged escort events. But so many DEs that i barely had time to stop to sell junk or repair my equipments. Specially in Sparkfly Fen, Blazeridge and Maelstrom. Sometimes i felt overwhelmed by so many DEs happening at the same time.

    Also, there are events that are started when you talk to a NPC and sometimes they have no visual indication of so.
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  18. #18
    Specially in Sparkfly Fen, Blazeridge and Maelstrom. Sometimes i felt overwhelmed by so many DEs happening at the same time.
    Maybe it's a server difference? I dunno...the events in Blazeridge are so buggy I couldn't do more than a few of them as I ran around the zone. =(

    EDIT: Although in the Charr starting zone, I did feel the way you're describing. Stuff just constantly happening. Although I did still end up repeating events there sometimes, just because they'd pop right on top of me and why not?
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-09-17 at 10:02 PM.

  19. #19
    I actually enjoy the leveling, no better feeling than a ding in WoW =].

    EDIT : oops, slowly tiptoes backwards

  20. #20
    Why are you insisting on content at or below your level? If I wind up finishing a zone before I've reached the recommended max for it, nothing is keeping me from trying tougher content. Going into the next zone a few levels early, and having the "I'm gonna die" factor go up a bit is where this game is at it's best, really, but YMMV.

    There are situations where I'll wind up doing the same de's a few times just out of coincidence or being in that location, but between killing stuff, farming mats, finishing hearts, de's, and crafting, there's never a time when I don't have something next or some new area to go to.
    Last edited by melodramocracy; 2012-09-17 at 10:00 PM.
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