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  1. #81
    Field Marshal Insincere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiarra View Post
    Sure. I'll give you they probably won't be stupid enough to balance fights around people having certain symbiosis combos, but... if running say Guardian/Rogue/DK or Druid/ShadowPriest starts making fights too easy it's probably going to get nerfed into oblivion; actually it's probably going to get nerfed to oblivion due to PvP issues.

    That however doesn't fix the fact the talent is not fun if you don't have the class with the ability you want in your raid. It doesn't fix the fact it's not fun that you cannot use it while you're soloing. It doesn't fix the fact that it's not fun that you can't use it on other Druids, and that said Druids can't even place it on the same target. It's not fun in that I can already see raids saying 'we don't care what spell you get, you're going to put it on the shadow priest/tank'.

    I have a lot more against the spell from the 'not fun' side of things, than its 'not useful' aspect.

    You're saying it like you will never be able to use it at all, just because YOU think it’s not fun, it still has use, even if only the player you give it to benefits it is still useful in that respect. Compare it to the equivalent such as dk's dark sim, which was their end level 85 ability! Which is by far arguably useless for 95% of the fights in cata, just like control undead is relatively useless for current content as well. Both have their uses in certain fights/older content; maybe even challenge modes such as scholomance.
    However dark sim saw on 2 fights in raid the whole way thru cata, symbiosis even if it’s not used to its greatest potential can still have 100% use, 100% of the time in raids/end game content. You've no idea how awesome that makes this ability; actually being able to use it is a sodding blessing.
    Even if the ability gets nerfed for some classes its applied on, it will be done so with good reason, and won’t make you ‘not’ use it. If you’re a guardian druid or any druid at all, you won’t consider NOT using it just because you might not benefit, that would be an absurd notion. The equivalent would be not using a 10% attack power buff if you can bring it, if it didn’t benefit you at all.
    Would be moronic wouldn’t you agree?

  2. #82
    10% more dodge is a bit lackluster, i think boneshield is the best option.

  3. #83
    Symbiosis is excellently designed for 3 of the 4 trees with regards to offering at least 2 good/fun options. Sadly, everything about the guardian list is either boring (10% dr here or there for a few seconds) or pointless. If bears got the cat list this would be infinitely better. Or the doomcluck list... or the resto list even.

  4. #84
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    imo bear geat the best out of it all, those cooldowns actualy on surviveal
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  5. #85
    Seriously, tanks are the only ones who go abilities that relate to their primary role (CD's to reduce/avoid damage) - dps and heal specs didn't get abilities that are for their main role (for the most part - bar a few outliers), they got mostly situational utility which is fine.

    If anything, the fact that even non-bear tanks are getting "tank like CD's" it pigeon holes the druids in the raid into choosing the tanks first, to give them their cd (weak as it is) cause during progression every little bit helps. Guardian druid putting it on the other tank is the strongest combo, since its a gain of 2 tank cd's for the raid.

  6. #86
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    imo bear geat the best out of it all, those cooldowns actualy on surviveal
    For the druid i believe that feral druid on the warrior gets the bigest benefit raidwide for PvE but personal on PvE guardian is better.
    And overall Shadow Priest wins.
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
    Why?
    He will find an easy way to do it.


    I'm schizophrenic and alone... at least I got each other

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Insincere View Post
    You're saying it like you will never be able to use it at all, just because YOU think it’s not fun, it still has use, even if only the player you give it to benefits it is still useful in that respect. Compare it to the equivalent such as dk's dark sim, which was their end level 85 ability! Which is by far arguably useless for 95% of the fights in cata, just like control undead is relatively useless for current content as well. Both have their uses in certain fights/older content; maybe even challenge modes such as scholomance.
    However dark sim saw on 2 fights in raid the whole way thru cata, symbiosis even if it’s not used to its greatest potential can still have 100% use, 100% of the time in raids/end game content. You've no idea how awesome that makes this ability; actually being able to use it is a sodding blessing.
    Even if the ability gets nerfed for some classes its applied on, it will be done so with good reason, and won’t make you ‘not’ use it. If you’re a guardian druid or any druid at all, you won’t consider NOT using it just because you might not benefit, that would be an absurd notion. The equivalent would be not using a 10% attack power buff if you can bring it, if it didn’t benefit you at all.
    Would be moronic wouldn’t you agree?
    Yup I'm sure my healers will love their prowl and cyclone button for raiding... oh and another rebirth when we have 3 already in a 10-man - yay. But wait, we can give our DPS healing touch and rejuv - wow, I guess that will totally allow us to drop a healer as the DPS can heal themselves instead... right? Oh yeah, Dash and Stampeding roar, cause we wouldn't already have 3 stampeding roars with our group comp and we def need another one. I guess my Enh shaman might be back, so I can give him solar beam that might be useful... on trash.

    Nothing there even comes close to a 10% AP buff...

    So actually Yeah, looking at that I'd better make someone reroll DK/ShadowPriest/Monk/Rogue to even make this spell worth casting for me or my raid (I'll agree the Balance and Feral Druid get some passable self-ability options out of those classes but not Guardian).

    So I'll say again, an ability that can be made nigh on useless depending on your group comp, is not fun for me - If you find it fun I envy you. If every option avaliable was of equal use then that wouldn't be so bad, but being denied use of the better options because you dont run a certain raid setup... that's just irritating.
    Last edited by Kaiarra; 2012-09-21 at 06:36 PM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiarra View Post
    Yup I'm sure my healers will love their prowl and cyclone button for raiding... oh and another rebirth when we have 3 already in a 10-man - yay. But wait, we can give our DPS healing touch and rejuv - wow, I guess that will totally allow us to drop a healer as the DPS can heal themselves instead... right? Oh yeah, Dash and Stampeding roar, cause we wouldn't already have 3 stampeding roars with our group comp and we def need another one. I guess my Enh shaman might be back, so I can give him solar beam that might be useful... on trash.

    Nothing there even comes close to a 10% AP buff...

    So actually Yeah, looking at that I'd better make someone reroll DK/ShadowPriest/Monk/Rogue to even make this spell worth casting for me or my raid (I'll agree the Balance and Feral Druid get some passable self-ability options out of those classes but not Guardian).

    So I'll say again, an ability that can be made nigh on useless depending on your group comp, is not fun for me - If you find it fun I envy you. If every option avaliable was of equal use then that wouldn't be so bad, but being denied use of the better options because you dont run a certain raid setup... that's just irritating.
    Ok even though I tried to defend Symbiosis in PvE, and actually give the worse side of this game a chance to realize what's good on their own I just can't help it but..
    If it sucks in PvE for your raid comp which would benefit so insanely off of 1 ability they get from you, does it soothe you that it's up there with RoF PvP wise(which was just as useless in PvE(probably even more)) I mean I can sit here and look at your amazing analogies of a rather silly aspect of the game that is made redundant once it's finished once just so long.. Yeah I'm a PvP-er but I know what PvE is about, I cleared DS heroic(ROFL ACHIEVEMENT RIGHT ? 10% buff makes it even worse) and it is one of the most boring things in this game, it adds a new obligation to your time where you have to put up with people making the same mistakes over and over, and due to low attendance you can't kick them out and replace them, sound fun? To some of you it's why you play the game.

    I'm not here for PvP vs. PvE flamewar but you guys seemingly want to ignite it, let's see it this way, Symbiosis has to be good in PvP, and it has to make druids more viable in PvP, if you can do that while it's fun and good for PvE great! if you can't however it doesn't matter much because MoP is: Dare I say it !? Hell yeah, a PvP expansion, and a testament to that is the gating on terrace of endless spring, and the month delay on already designed AND tested content, just so you PvE guys shut up, and let us enjoy our PvP, like we did for you for the past 2 years.
    afflocks that cry about balance in pvp make me sad.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiarra View Post
    Yup I'm sure my healers will love their prowl and cyclone button for raiding... oh and another rebirth when we have 3 already in a 10-man - yay. But wait, we can give our DPS healing touch and rejuv - wow, I guess that will totally allow us to drop a healer as the DPS can heal themselves instead... right? Oh yeah, Dash and Stampeding roar, cause we wouldn't already have 3 stampeding roars with our group comp and we def need another one. I guess my Enh shaman might be back, so I can give him solar beam that might be useful... on trash.

    Nothing there even comes close to a 10% AP buff...

    So actually Yeah, looking at that I'd better make someone reroll DK/ShadowPriest/Monk/Rogue to even make this spell worth casting for me or my raid (I'll agree the Balance and Feral Druid get some passable self-ability options out of those classes but not Guardian).

    So I'll say again, an ability that can be made nigh on useless depending on your group comp, is not fun for me - If you find it fun I envy you. If every option avaliable was of equal use then that wouldn't be so bad, but being denied use of the better options because you dont run a certain raid setup... that's just irritating.
    Symbiote the paladin. Gain Consecration. Do more damage. Tank dps is still important. This applies to every single fight in the game. I'd tell you Life Tap would work across just as many fights, but I honestly don't think you have the imagination required to figure out how to use it.

  10. #90
    I bet 99% of the people this is cast on will never remember to use whatever they get.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by racenutz View Post
    I bet 99% of the people this is cast on will never remember to use whatever they get.
    good thing its our level 87 ability and not theirs. fuck em.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    good thing its our level 87 ability and not theirs. fuck em.
    Yeah but if your tank forgets to use the CD you just gave him, it's rendered useless.

  13. #93
    If they forget then they wont last long :P

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Raodek View Post
    Symbiosis is great.
    "Life"grips.
    The priests in my guild will pay.
    Life Grip plus Caster Wild Charge. Lets play swap the priest into the fire and have no danger whatsoever yourself (Unless he grips you back in, of course)

  15. #95
    Field Marshal Insincere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiarra View Post
    Yup I'm sure my healers will love their prowl and cyclone button for raiding... oh and another rebirth when we have 3 already in a 10-man - yay. But wait, we can give our DPS healing touch and rejuv - wow, I guess that will totally allow us to drop a healer as the DPS can heal themselves instead... right? Oh yeah, Dash and Stampeding roar, cause we wouldn't already have 3 stampeding roars with our group comp and we def need another one. I guess my Enh shaman might be back, so I can give him solar beam that might be useful... on trash.

    Nothing there even comes close to a 10% AP buff...

    So actually Yeah, looking at that I'd better make someone reroll DK/ShadowPriest/Monk/Rogue to even make this spell worth casting for me or my raid (I'll agree the Balance and Feral Druid get some passable self-ability options out of those classes but not Guardian).

    So I'll say again, an ability that can be made nigh on useless depending on your group comp, is not fun for me - If you find it fun I envy you. If every option avaliable was of equal use then that wouldn't be so bad, but being denied use of the better options because you dont run a certain raid setup... that's just irritating.
    Right, because 'more' of an ability your group has is a bad thing? I'd certainly welcome a 3rd stampeding roar, odds are i'd find a way to utilise it. Like i said to you before, stop being blind to symbiosis' 100% potential use uptime on 100% of fights, this is a blessing. USE IT, or don't you could just cry on this thread about it because 'you don't wanna use an ability because it doesn't benefit solely you.
    Healing on a mage is awesome, everytime u need to add extra healing, boom mage can help.
    If you think this would make it viable to replace a healer you're a fool. That would not be the design intent, it would be to solely help out on high healing situations, Judging by your lack of understanding and even consideration of the uses of symbiosis even if it doesn't benefit you, i can assume that you are infact crying because you want it buffed just for selfish reasons.
    My analogy was accurate in the sense that 'if you have an ability like 10% attack power, even if it didn't benefit you, but would someone else in the raid. WHY WOULDN'T YOU USE IT?' Just so you actually read that part this time i've made it easier to read by writing it in caps for you.

    If you still can't see a reason for using this ability 100% of the time on every fight, regardless of comp (unless you run 10 druids) then that is a problem with YOU not the ability.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Insincere View Post
    If you still can't see a reason for using this ability 100% of the time on every fight, regardless of comp (unless you run 10 druids) then that is a problem with YOU not the ability.
    Technically at 6 druids and above (in a 10 man) run into the not enough targets issue for at least 1 of the druids - not just 10 druids :P

    One day to go

  17. #97
    I think what a lot of ppl forget is that when it comes to raiding its not only you that gets an extra ability, its your raiders mate too meaning we are a must have raider in most setups due to the sheer wealth of options available to a raid as a whole.

    Ask yourself this....would you rather have a dps ability to give you an extra 2k dps but can't get a boss down because of debuffs,dispels etc. Or would you rather be a team player and be a utility class which benefits everyone?

  18. #98
    Stood in the Fire
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    being a dedicated moonkin, I must say that I envy ferals and restos.
    Abilities they get from symbiosis are awesome,
    while boomkins get about 2 useful abilities - both dmg mitigation, from warlock and rogue.
    rest of them are shitty for balanced people


    I have a strong feeling that both balance and guardian spec will need symbiosis revamp
    hopefully with the next patch.

    and why would we not be able to put symbiosis on other druids is not quite understandable
    Being balanced I would not mind to have a, for example, wildgrowth (from other resto druid) ready to help with heals a bit,
    or some real dmg mitigation from a guardian...

    IMO for now - boomkins are low fun with symbiosis, same as guardians.

  19. #99
    Reading through the first few pages I feel like I need to point out why having boneshield would be awesome... (coming from a DK tank)

    The mechanics of boneshield are such that only a direct hit will take off a charge, and there is a cooldown so those three charges will last at the very least 6 seconds. The interesting part is the taking a direct hit mechanic. Dots don't eat charges, aoe doesn't eat charges (mostly). Only direct hits so you can cast boneshield long before the pull and have it off cooldown already. Your charges get eaten and you can recast it pretty much instantly. If you know you aren't going to be tanking because of a debuff switch that you have to sit through you can cast boneshield and take 10% off that whole duration of the debuff (bleed, dot, etc).

    It is really strong as a tank cooldown and it stacks with everything.

    Another tranq if you have a spriest is really strong, mass dispel is strong, life tap is strong for pre pull (healers can heal you before you pull!), bubble is strong, almost all of the resto ones are strong, and extra cleanse! (8 second cd remember).

    I think maybe people need to stop looking at both sides of the spell and think that both sides need to be badass for it to not suck. Look at it as one new spell for your raid team and it looks much better. Sometimes you get something that sucks, sometimes the other player does. Your raid certainly becomes stronger because of it though, and you can get a new skill each encounter specific to that encounter. It could even open up some new strategies. Think of a two tank fight in which the OT only has to tank for a few seconds at a time. Let that rogue do it and roll with 7 DPS instead of 6. huge.

  20. #100
    Dreadlord Khatix's Avatar
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    I co tank with a DK and will all ways put it up on him, may not be much but an extra minor CD for both tanks can and will come in handy.

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