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  1. #1

    symbiosis is NOT bad for pve, stop thinking this!

    i keep reading about people being disappointed with symbiosis, calling it just a pvp move and how they wont ever even use it in pve. lets dispel this noobish myth once and for all. i made a short list of what moonkin (my main spec) could have done with symbiosis in cataclysm. can you add to this? make a list of your own for feral/resto?

    ams - valiona to kill twilight thingers
    MD - madness bloods for faster burst aoe
    grapple weapon - neutering dreadblades on blackhorn
    hoj - ragnaros sons!
    mass dispel - sinestra when wrack becomes hectic
    cloak - ultraxion soaking
    purge - maloriak remedy dispel
    unending resolve - baelroc shard tanking
    intervene - any fight with lots of movement
    mirror images - slight dps increase, always valuable

    and this is just off the top of my head.

    symbiosis is amazing and gives druids the most utility of any class in the game making them a versatile jack of all trades just when it comes to executing raid mechanics and without even touching on the obvious pvp benifits.
    Last edited by crunk; 2012-09-18 at 10:49 AM.

  2. #2
    I agree with the OP. Symbiosis is the best skill to be given to a hybrid class. Theres two categories. Utility and Dmg. If they'd given us a DMG spell they'd of had to balance us ALOT.

    Resto: Ice block That nasty boss mechanic! Or clense those nasty diseases. This means we're just that little bit more useful. Plus Clense might'nt be on the same CD as our dispel.
    Bal: Mass dispel and be your healers best friend. Or Stun mobs every minute or even Cloak of Shadows off that nasty debuff.
    Feral: Most importantly, Feign Death. Rez your wiped raid. Or how about Divine Shield yourself out of some Oh Shit situations
    Guardian: Life Tap. It's going to be my favorite. I hate how vunerable we bears start out on fights, this ought to even the playing fields (Long as you warn your healer)

    These are just a few examples, And remember the most important job of a DPS, to stay alive! So all this utility goodness is awesome.

  3. #3
    High Overlord zen0x's Avatar
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    Then tell me please why Guardian druids get totally screwed by Symbiosis?
    - Spell Reflection from Warriors is totally useless in a raid scenario since you can't reflect 99% of boss abilities
    - Life Tap from Warlocks is useless since it takes away 20% of our max. HP for a lousy 30 rage... only useful before a boss pull at best
    - Lightning Shield from Shamans sounds decent for better AoE threat if it wasn't for "Only one ball will fire every few seconds." making the ability useless (single target threat is not a problem anyway and the damage from the shield is negligible)
    - Feint from Rogues has a ridiculous rage cost for the little benefit it provides making the ability useless and the rage better spent on SD or FR
    - Fear Ward from Priests has never been useful in PvE since Onyxia on level 60
    - Consecration from Paladins is decent for some extra AoE threat and picking up adds that spawn faster than the swipe CD but since threat is not a problem anyway this ability doesn't provide much
    - Frost Armor from Mages might be decent for add kiting but when was the last time a tank had to kite adds (excluding bloods on spine since druid tanks are the worst of all 4 tank classes to be on blood duty and should never do it). We also got Faerie Swarm as a single target range slow and Vortex, Mass Entanglement and Typhoon for kiting
    - Ice Trap from Hunters: see Frost Armor
    - Elusive Brew from Monks is decent since it has no cost and only a 1 minute CD. It doesn't provide much of a damage reduction but it's better than nothing (--> nice to have)
    - Bone Shield from DKs is decent as well since it has no cost and gives you a little passive damage reduction when it's up. But, 10% for 3 hits is nothing amazing.

    So you see, Symbiosis might have some fun and awesome abilities but from a tank perspective it seems a VERY underwhelming ability compared to other level 87 ones like Ascendance from Shamans or Alter Time from Mages or any other classe's ability.
    Last edited by zen0x; 2012-09-18 at 12:03 PM.
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  4. #4
    I'd never heard anyone assert this until now, that seems remarkably short sighted, akin to saying that CC talents are "PvP-only". Keep in mind, it's not just the Druid gaining an ability, it's the target as well.

  5. #5
    MoP:
    Druid tank and DK tank
    Druid gets Bone Shield, DK gets Might of Ursoc.
    Fucking cash money yo.

  6. #6
    I hate the fact that as a Mage all I get is a heal, which I will never use. Not in raiding anyway.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by babuka View Post
    Then tell me please why Guardian druids get totally screwed by Symbiosis?
    Tanks need to be balanced. At least we get some cool Utility. I checked too, the only helpful ability for our tanking counterparts is a warriors Banner which reduces enemies dmg done by 10% (might not even stack) The rest of the tanking classes just get dmg boosts or disorientates (breaks on dmg) talents. Which would need to be balanced. They all have lengthy cds too.

    I'd say in comparison we're getting anything but screwed. Plus we hand out certain skills with symbiosis increasing our raid appeal!

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 10:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    I hate the fact that as a Mage all I get is a heal, which I will never use. Not in raiding anyway.
    So when the boss goes immune and charges up that nasty burst spell you just stand there looking pretty? With Ice Block on CD? You should appreciate you the fact you can keep yourself up a little. I bet it'll scale great with your SP too

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by babuka View Post
    Then tell me please why Guardian druids get totally screwed by Symbiosis?
    A substantial chunk of them have situational uses, and situationally useful things is more or less the name of the game in this case. I see you've run through them already, but let's make a quick run through again, noting also potential uses for the person receiving Symbiosis and specific fights for them:

    Death Knight - Obvious use, any time you'd like a bit of extra mitigation, Bone Shield is nice. I'm under the impression you can stack this with other CDs as well. This would surely be useful for Hagara, for example. Your DK tank partner would thank you, as would DK DPS, as they get an always useful ability or a nice AoE tool.

    Hunter - Highly situational, but could be good for certain kiting circumstances. This would have been really nice on Magmaw, for example. Dash seems even more situational for Hunters. I'm guessing you won't give Hunters symbiosis much.

    Mage - Same as Hunter only less useful. I think this really only has PvP application, but I'm fine with being corrected.

    Paladin - As you note, this doesn't seem particularly useful for many circumstances, but I think it's plausible to use this from time to time when survival's not an issue and being able to pre-threat some targets is handy. I'm thinking of Nefarian as an example. If you're the only Druid, getting a Holy Pally BRez could be handy, Barkskin is great for Prot Paladins, and Wrath is situationally useful for Ret.

    Priest - I can't really fathom a good use for this in any recent content. A Shadow Priest having Tranquility could potentially be a life saver though.

    Rogue - I'm under the impression this is a survival increase for unavoidable AoE. Am I wrong? I don't know of any great uses for a Rogue having taunt.

    Crap, I just got something to do and have to leave this incomplete. I think I've made the point about as poorly as possible! Just keep in mind, something being situational doesn't make it bad, and keep in mind the use on the person that's getting it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 08:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    I hate the fact that as a Mage all I get is a heal, which I will never use. Not in raiding anyway.
    Wait, you've never had a time where you thought, "I wish I could heal myself"? I know I've thought that on every single one of my DPS characters at some point. There are some fights where there's specific times that there's nothing better to do, even.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Mage - Same as Hunter only less useful. I think this really only has PvP application, but I'm fine with being corrected.

    Kiting Hard hitting Adds spamming swipe/thrash could be useful here. Not too useful but how about Slimes in ICC? Mage could heal themselves too.
    .

    Rogue - I'm under the impression this is a survival increase for unavoidable AoE. Am I wrong? I don't know of any great uses for a Rogue having taunt.

    Can't link it - Growl actually makes the rogue a tank for a very short period of time(330% armor 20% stam and 6% less chance to be crit for 3seconds)! If your raid planned it properly the rogue could Taunt then use evasive or something similar. Or cloak of shadows....And remove the Bleed!.
    Much love for symbiosis and anything that makes the game just that little more deep!

  10. #10
    I've never heard anyone say Symbiosis is useless in PvE, if anything I think people overhype it a little too much. :P

    As a resto druid, I'm most excited to be able to get Spiritwalker's Grace from shamans, which I really look forward to. I'm actually surprised people haven't mentioned this and instead praise being able to dispel Diseases which are really almost non-existent in raids.

    Besides this, I really don't see anything else that would be terribly useful for me as a raider. They are nice perks yes, but a lot of the time they are just duplicating something that someone else in your raiding team can already do (what's the point of having 2 people purging on Maloriak? The shaman can do it solo.) or that aren't really necessary (IceBlock, Deterrence, Icebound Fortitude are nice, but if you execute everything right you shouldn't need it at all and are better off picking up something throughput-enhancing like Spiritwalker's Grace).
    Last edited by emni; 2012-09-18 at 12:57 PM.

  11. #11
    Brewmaster Kae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babuka View Post
    So you see, Symbiosis might have some fun and awesome abilities but from a tank perspective it seems a VERY underwhelming ability compared to other level 87 ones like Ascendance from Shamans or Alter Time from Mages or any other classe's ability.
    I wouldn't complain too much. Otherwise they might give something like http://www.wowhead.com/spell=115750

    I'd be happy to trade for your Symbiosis since you don't want it

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Death Knight - Obvious use, any time you'd like a bit of extra mitigation, Bone Shield is nice. I'm under the impression you can stack this with other CDs as well. This would surely be useful for Hagara, for example. Your DK tank partner would thank you, as would DK DPS, as they get an always useful ability or a nice AoE tool.

    Hunter - Highly situational, but could be good for certain kiting circumstances. This would have been really nice on Magmaw, for example. Dash seems even more situational for Hunters. I'm guessing you won't give Hunters symbiosis much.

    Mage - Same as Hunter only less useful. I think this really only has PvP application, but I'm fine with being corrected.

    Paladin - As you note, this doesn't seem particularly useful for many circumstances, but I think it's plausible to use this from time to time when survival's not an issue and being able to pre-threat some targets is handy. I'm thinking of Nefarian as an example. If you're the only Druid, getting a Holy Pally BRez could be handy, Barkskin is great for Prot Paladins, and Wrath is situationally useful for Ret.

    Priest - I can't really fathom a good use for this in any recent content. A Shadow Priest having Tranquility could potentially be a life saver though.

    Rogue - I'm under the impression this is a survival increase for unavoidable AoE. Am I wrong? I don't know of any great uses for a Rogue having taunt.
    These are mostly terrible, also you missed out shaman and monk, which are 2 of the least terrible.

    Deathknight - 10% less damage from 3 hits? Boring!

    Monk - 10% dodge for 6 (8?) seconds. No way to tell if pressing that button even did anything.

    Hunter - Whoopee! We can kite... and maintain aggro with what exactly? Chances are we don't need more than 1 frost trap, and if we did need to kite like that, we'd make a death knight respec frost for Howling Blast huge damage slow kiting.

    Mage - Same as hunter, might be annoying for pvp flag carrying, but idk if bears are even viable there (extremely difficult to get rage and SD is useless).

    Paladin - Not great, only useful for zon'ozz and hagara tombs (as examples) where the things that need AoE'ing don't actually hit us, or lightning shield is better. I don't think it'll be great for add pickup at all, as it's centred on us when we place it, and doesn't last very long.

    Priest - complete trash. Last fear mechanic in a raid was literally on trash.

    Rogue - Garbage, it's literally better just to take the damage and heal it off with FR.

    In other words, we only get 2 mitigation spells, Bone shield and Evasive Brew, which means all the others are instantly terrible for tanking. That, plus the 2 mitigation spells we do get don't do very much and are BORING. 10% damage off 3 melee hits isn't going to make a tangible difference, and 10% dodge is hardly even noticeable, in fact, it may not even do anything and you have no way of knowing it.

    This is compared to all the other speccs get great or fun spells, like Divine Shield, Dispersion, Iceblock, Cloak of Shadows and Mirror images to name a few.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babuka View Post
    So you see, Symbiosis might have some fun and awesome abilities but from a tank perspective it seems a VERY underwhelming ability compared to other level 87 ones like Ascendance from Shamans or Alter Time from Mages or any other classe's ability.
    Still better than War Banner. Heck, from a PvE perspective nearly everything is better than War Banner.

    My Boomkin will like Symbiosis, that's for sure, 4 fat owls zerging a boss down? Yes please!

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    problem with symbiosisis is, a lot of druids like it, however all other classes either hate it becase the ability they get is useless for them or they have it becase it is OP in pvp
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  15. #15
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    Yes it will be good in PvE.

    No it won't be any good for Guardian's.
    Huray for the other tank in my guild being a Paladin...
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    I hate the fact that as a Mage all I get is a heal, which I will never use. Not in raiding anyway.
    And in my guild, if you didn't use that heal or Iceblock you'd get yelled at and sat. We are all about people using abilities to avoid damage in raids. Not taking avoidable damage is the easiest thing you can do as a player (you don't even need to be a raider, it could even be in 5 mans) to help out your group and especially your healer. Remember, healers are going to run out of mana again as we won't have the best gear and it's the first tier of content in the new expansion. You're going to want to use that heal and often.

    Honestly, as a resto druid I'm not too impressed with Symbiosis. There are a couple of abilities that are amusing, but it's mostly just extra damage reduction cooldowns that we get. It's not horrible, but it's nothing outstanding.
    Last edited by Melodi; 2012-09-18 at 02:04 PM.
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  17. #17
    High Overlord zen0x's Avatar
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    I'm not arguing that Symbiosis is awesome for Feral, Resto or Balance and even most of the receiving classes because it really is. I'm just very disappointed about the Guardian part being almost totally useless.
    "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED." "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
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  18. #18
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    -Insert QQ here- It is good and bad, They need to scratch it and balance it for most of the aspects in the game imo considering they didn't put down time on a proper level 87 ability just trading old once currently in the game.
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  19. #19
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babuka View Post
    Fear Ward from Priests has never been useful in PvE since Onyxia on level 60
    Blood Queen in ICC

  20. #20
    Does Symbiosis still have the distance restriction? This will be annoying while I'm leveling, questing, and finishing dailies. Every other class gets a new lvl 87 ability they can use anytime, but we have to go hunt someone down to use our ability for an hour, Genius!

    I like the flavor behind symbiosis but I think Blizz made it too lackluster by forcing us to trade it with 10 classes and varying by spec. Some of the really cool abilities I may never get to use due to my raid/dungeon role. I think it would have been more fun as a specific spell that shared some flavor in communing with nature vs a spell swap with other classes.
    Last edited by Kioga; 2012-09-18 at 03:02 PM.

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