symbiosis is NOT bad for pve, stop thinking this!

[Drathos]

i keep reading about people being disappointed with symbiosis, calling it just a pvp move and how they wont ever even use it in pve. lets dispel this noobish myth once and for all. i made a short list of what moonkin (my main spec) could have done with symbiosis in cataclysm. can you add to this? make a list of your own for feral/resto?

mirror images - slight dps increase, always valuable

and this is just off the top of my head.

symbiosis is amazing and gives druids the most utility of any class in the game making them a versatile jack of all trades just when it comes to executing raid mechanics and without even touching on the obvious pvp benifits.

Unless they made MI not be on the GCD for us, it would almost certainly be a DPS loss to use them. When I tested them on beta their damage was pathetic.
Only ones I could see myself actually getting would be the defensive CDs(AMS, Unending Resolve etc), because the rest are just awful. I can't see MD being useful, because we don't have the easily useable burst AoE hunters have(2x Multishot, 1x Cobra/Steady, 1x Multishot).
I can't actually remember the rest, because none of them are very interesting.
Would be lovely if we got Spiritwalker's Grace, Leap of Faith, Demonic Portal(yes, I'm jealous of the resto ones)

[Krit]

Would be lovely if we got Spiritwalker's Grace, Leap of Faith, Demonic Portal(yes, I'm jealous of the resto ones)

You have Demonic portal.

Put down a shroom, /focus shroom, make a macro to /cast Wild Charge @[focus]..... profit

I agree I would love spiritwalkers grace..

(edit) not thru symbiosis, but you still have it :P

[teddabear]

Is your spec fun and is it balanced at 90? If not you have a legitimate complaint. Saying your level 87 ability isn't as good as other level 87 abilities is not a strong argument.

Also if your spec is not fun or balanced it does not necessarily follow that the correct fix is to change your level 87 ability.

I'm going to have to somewhat disagree with myself in one respect. When all you are getting for the expansion is essentially your level 87 ability and your level 90 talent they should both be pretty interesting. While Symbiosis does sound interesting, the actual abilities are so watered down that there is no WOW factor. I can easily envision many Druids never bothering to use Symbiosis at all in a few months.

[Tyrean]

I tried mirror images in raid last night and we had a fight were I could pop them twice in a single fight. I went back at the logs and looked at my mirror images damage done for two full duration pops and it was a whopping... drum roll....

3k damage.

Does not drop target like real mirrors, does not drop threat, does no damage. Useless.

However, I ended up casting on our Blood DK and getting AMS and with all the raid damage going around I took the least amount of damage of all our raiders by a large margin each and every time. Too bad they nerfed the spells that the tanks get in return. In PvE I started to think of it as either damage prevention or utility. In pvp it obviously has much better usage.

Oh and it is not as awesome to cast on a warlock in pvp. When you use it you get ported to the warlocks port, and if you are in a BG that means a lot of nothing. I could see it being useful in arena where there is more coordination but shroom leap is just as good for me in BGs.

[Sabnock]

i keep reading about people being disappointed with symbiosis,

Because in this spot we deserve a real defensive cd, not this horrible garbage.

Sure, it appers to be nice on the paper, but still you need the right class and while "bring the player not the class" says hello, most of the combination give you something very very situational at best (and if you have one that can be vaguely fine it doesn't mean is a good spell at all) and you can't use it on another druid (maybe taking some skills from another specialization, some heals from resto for istance).
And as always they'll start try to fixing it nerfing what you give to the tank (so you are not forced to use it on them) without understanding that the real problem is the very bad design at the bottom of it.

[deathgrip1092]

Because in this spot we deserve a real defensive cd, not this horrible garbage.

Sure, it appers to be nice on the paper, but still you need the right class and while "bring the player not the class" says hello, most of the combination give you something very very situational at best (and if you have one that can be vaguely fine it doesn't mean is a good spell at all) and you can't use it on another druid (maybe taking some skills from another specialization, some heals from resto for istance).
And as always they'll start try to fixing it nerfing what you give to the tank (so you are not forced to use it on them) without understanding that the real problem is the very bad design at the bottom of it.

The problem you have is you think that if something doesn't directly improve what your role is it's bad. Under your logic a significant portion of anybody's spell book is trash. Hunter's disengage? garbage. Rogue's Cloak of Shadows? trash. Iceblock? worthless.

I want you to honestly say you never wished your group had a little more aoe heals, or slows, or stuns, or silences, or mobility. Because that's what Symbiosis does, it helps your group with what it lacks. It's a wipe saver, it's a aoe healing cd, it's a disable, it's a dps cooldown, it's a defensive cooldown, it's a dispell. Which do you need most? You pick!

[pinkpanter]

i was on Elegon last night symbiosis is one of the best things that the cat ever had (soul swap) don't know for the other specs

[apepi]

The good thing about this spell is that you can adapt to what challenges you face, it may not be the best tanking cd or the best dps or healing on but when used right and put on the right person that will help both you and them it can do wonders better than what other classes get from their 87 ability.

[valiorik]

MoP:
Druid tank and DK tank
Druid gets Bone Shield, DK gets Might of Ursoc.
Fucking cash money yo.

That's the winner! But for some weird reason my partner DK sometimes gets MUSHROOMS! Seems to be buggy time to time.

[hunty]

That's the winner! But for some weird reason my partner DK sometimes gets MUSHROOMS! Seems to be buggy time to time.

Not a bug, intended change. I assume druid tanks would be nigh-mandatory otherwise and thats why other tanks get the benefit their dps specs do now.

[Hellenka]

I hate the fact that as a Mage all I get is a heal, which I will never use.

I LOVE the fact that as a Mage I get a heal
Use it aaall the time.

[Sabnock]

The problem you have is you think that if something doesn't directly improve what your role

It's the opposite of that, that's why in the spot of Symbiosis we deserve a real defensive cd, which has to be indipendent from others. Not this garbage.
Sure, I'm unlucky playing balance, because is the worst case but in any case the whole problem of this spell is the wrong design that can only fail, as it does.

[Dariela]

I don't see where we need another full time defensive cooldown, we already have those.

Symbiosis has been a great boon to our raids. I can't wait to start leveling my druid to get it myself. If you can't see when and how to use it effectively then the problem is on you, as it is a very strong raid utility.

[Dazzy]

i keep reading about people being disappointed with symbiosis, calling it just a pvp move and how they wont ever even use it in pve. lets dispel this noobish myth once and for all. i made a short list of what moonkin (my main spec) could have done with symbiosis in cataclysm. can you add to this? make a list of your own for feral/resto?

ams - valiona to kill twilight thingers
MD - madness bloods for faster burst aoe
grapple weapon - neutering dreadblades on blackhorn
hoj - ragnaros sons!
mass dispel - sinestra when wrack becomes hectic
cloak - ultraxion soaking
purge - maloriak remedy dispel
unending resolve - baelroc shard tanking
intervene - any fight with lots of movement
mirror images - slight dps increase, always valuable

and this is just off the top of my head.

symbiosis is amazing and gives druids the most utility of any class in the game making them a versatile jack of all trades just when it comes to executing raid mechanics and without even touching on the obvious pvp benifits.

There are numerous uses for almost every fight for both parties, I would have to guess anyone complaining has never played a druid or is just bad.

[Sabnock]

I don't see where we need another full time defensive cooldown, we already have those.

As Balance or Resto you have not valid defensive cd, unless you are thinking about Barskin/Ironbark because they aren't.
The main purpose of this spell is to give defensive cd or utilities for all the specs (even if the balance is the unlucky one), so I don't think to understand why it's better a half-design garbage spell like that instead of a proper one that work for yourself (maybe with a different kind of use regard the spec, if you want hard something different for each spec) without anyone else involved.

There are numerous uses for almost every fight for both parties, I would have to guess anyone complaining has never played a druid or is just bad.

Sorry, but only the enthusiastic (and they usually are happy because it is something "new" not because it something good) clearly doesn't have to use this spell or any clue on it.
Especially if you play pve balance (probably it is the same even in a pvp context, in which you have not a real defensive cd and rely only on the rest of the group).

[Dariela]

As Balance or Resto you have not valid defensive cd, unless you are thinking about Barskin/Ironbark because they aren't.
The main purpose of this spell is to give defensive cd or utilities for all the specs (even if the balance is the unlucky one), so I don't think to understand why it's better a half-design garbage spell like that instead of a proper one that work for yourself (maybe with a different kind of use regard the spec, if you want hard something different for each spec) without anyone else involved.


Sorry, but only the enthusiastic (and they usually are happy because it is something "new" not because it something good) clearly doesn't have to use this spell or any clue on it.
Especially if you play pve balance (probably it is the same even in a pvp context, in which you have not a real defensive cd and rely only on the rest of the group).

As a resto for years I haven't felt as tho I need more defensive cooldowns, owing to the fact that I can keep myself (and 9 other people, to boot) alive thru damn near anything. As it stands, now I have Might of Ursoc and Ironbark, which I never had or needed before. (Tho Ironbark is a welcomed addition!)

I have played as a boomkin in the past, and have been trying it out again recently, but if I'm being honest I can't speak from that point of view. I certainly don't see the situation as dire as you paint it. I didn't stop playing balance because a lack of defense, I did it because I found the cata eclipse mechanic unpleasant. I will deffer to the career boomkins on that matter. I will mention that with Glyph of the Moonbeast you can now keep rejuv on yourself and you get Might of Ursoc as well.

I won't say I am not enthusiastic, but I've been watching it in action. It's a sweet spell. I'm sorry you don't appreciate it, but that doesn't make it bad.

[deathgrip1092]

As Balance or Resto you have not valid defensive cd, unless you are thinking about Barskin/Ironbark because they aren't.
The main purpose of this spell is to give defensive cd or utilities for all the specs (even if the balance is the unlucky one), so I don't think to understand why it's better a half-design garbage spell like that instead of a proper one that work for yourself (maybe with a different kind of use regard the spec, if you want hard something different for each spec) without anyone else involved.


Sorry, but only the enthusiastic (and they usually are happy because it is something "new" not because it something good) clearly doesn't have to use this spell or any clue on it.
Especially if you play pve balance (probably it is the same even in a pvp context, in which you have not a real defensive cd and rely only on the rest of the group).

1) That is not it's purpose. It's purpose is to add more possible strategy and methods of doing a fight.

2) Barkskin (it's defensive, and is a cooldown, it's a defensive cd), tier 1 talents, tier 2 talents, tier 3 talents, tier 5 talents, tier 6 talents, might of ursoc, all of those could be used defensively. You just have to be smart with their use.

[Dabrix32]

i keep reading about people being disappointed with symbiosis, calling it just a pvp move and how they wont ever even use it in pve.

As a Disc priest it gives me Cyclone. Please tell me how thats not a PvP ability when given to a disc priest? Cyclone has always been a major PvP CC ability and when used properly is stupid OP especially for ferals who can insta cast it.

[Sabnock]

As a resto for years I haven't felt as tho I need more defensive cooldowns, owing to the fact that I can keep myself (and 9 other people, to boot) alive thru damn near anything. As it stands, now I have Might of Ursoc and Ironbark, which I never had or needed before. (Tho Ironbark is a welcomed addition!)

Look, I'm also happy for something that you can use on a tank, I've played resto for long time, but not like this that is not even comparable to a Pain Suppression, for example.
It's the same bland cd that is always been barskin.

I will mention that with Glyph of the Moonbeast you can now keep rejuv on yourself and you get Might of Ursoc as well.

The point is that all this things, that can improve a little bit your survival even for just a bit, don't allow to you to survive something like Ultraxion kind of fight, in which is mandatory to have some heavy defensive cd or some heavy focus on a pvp encounter and we are pretty much the only one that have not something like this.
That's why, instead of this horror, they should have insert something more appropriate and not a failure like the whole hybrid idea which they have implemented in a such of a ridiculous way.

I won't say I am not enthusiastic, but I've been watching it in action. It's a sweet spell. I'm sorry you don't appreciate it, but that doesn't make it bad.

It's not good because I don't like it, it's bad because you are not supposed to design a spell like this, something that you need badly but it is given to you only if you are in a specific group (bye bye bring the player mantra) and it is not so good for every specs you have.

1) That is not it's purpose. It's purpose is to add more possible strategy and methods of doing a fight.
2) Barkskin (it's defensive, and is a cooldown, it's a defensive cd), tier 1 talents, tier 2 talents, tier 3 talents, tier 5 talents, tier 6 talents, might of ursoc, all of those could be used defensively. You just have to be smart with their use.

1) But it doesn't. It gives you some crappy defensive cd if you are a tank, some defensive cd if you are feral or resto (but in solo you are broken once again) and pretty much some utilities (like it is what we really need) if you are balance.
2) Meh. Pretty much every class obtains some really defensive cd to avoid mass damage for a little bit, barskin it is not something like that, Might of ursoc is pretty much useless unless you are a tank o maybe for a feral.
It doesn't save you like a bubble or an iceblock, so no, it is not a real defensive cd if you see what blizzard mean for it.

[Epoch]

As a Disc priest it gives me Cyclone. Please tell me how thats not a PvP ability when given to a disc priest? Cyclone has always been a major PvP CC ability and when used properly is stupid OP especially for ferals who can insta cast it.

No, just no.

Two words for you - diminishing returns.