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  1. #1
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Prot: I am feeling so squishy now. What am I doing wrong?

    Let me start with this:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l/Aesyr/simple

    I have been playing Prot Paladin since Burning Crusade. I am familiar with it, and only stepped down from tanking in Dragon Soul because I wasn't raiding much any more. Last night for fun, I got on and tried to do some Firelands (mostly regular) with some friends. It was awful. I have a hard time thinking the healers, who I know, were doing poorly, but I was dropping constantly.

    The first thing I noticed was my relic was gone of course, that had my JC gem in it...but that wouldn't explain it, too minute. Then I saw that even with the Mastery buff, I was missing about 28% Chance to block... now, I know that my mitigation works differently now. Actively. But is this why I am so weak? I mean, sure I'll shield slam a lot, always have, but what if I want to WOG? Well then thats 3 holy power not giving me damage reduction? I do not like it at all. I was literally railed by Lava Scions on regular rag. Even during cool downs I was taking major damage.

    On top of that, I feel like my threat and damage output is suffering. My DK friend was topping the charts every fight as Blood. I was tickling things. Admittedly, when Alabaster Shield stacks up a few times, and when I put on "Harsh Words", I was able to do a bit more damage, but not much. I will say I love the Consecrate Glyph.

    Also WTF they took away Divine Sacrifice and made it magic damage only? This one hurt my soul badly.

  2. #2
    Are you having problems with physical damage or magical damage? Because Divine Protection is 40% magic by default and so you have to use the glyph if you want physical.

  3. #3
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    I knew it was Magic Damage Reduction now. Did not know I could glyph it. Will look into that further. It was mostly melee swings I was dying to. I was getting hit for over 70k by quite a few things.

  4. #4
    Try checking your reforge/gems on askmrrobot.com

  5. #5
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Mr. Robot tells me to reforge and gem all of my avoidance into Hit and Expertise. I get that active mitigation is great but if the problem is I am getting the crap beat out of me against mobs that used to tickle me, I fail to see how having less avoidance is going to help me?

  6. #6
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Your hit and expertise are woefully low. We benefit a lot from getting them each to 7.5% now. That will improve your threat and the reliability of your finishers quite a bit.

    Word of Glory heals for an incredible amount now. Don't feel bad about using it; it's often going to be better at low health than Shield of the Righteous would be, since it can heal you for most if not all of your health.

    Beyond that, it's hard to say without knowing what you were doing. Were you keeping Sacred Shield up?

  7. #7
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    Your hit and expertise are woefully low. We benefit a lot from getting them each to 7.5% now. That will improve your threat and the reliability of your finishers quite a bit.

    Word of Glory heals for an incredible amount now. Don't feel bad about using it; it's often going to be better at low health than Shield of the Righteous would be, since it can heal you for most if not all of your health.

    Beyond that, it's hard to say without knowing what you were doing. Were you keeping Sacred Shield up?

    1. Yes I was keeping up Sacred Shield.

    2. Tanks needing to cap hit/exp ...what is this game coming to...

    3. I was healing as often as I felt necessary but it was the spike damage that was really horrific. It was never a slow trickle, it was a... "Hey I'm tan-- WHOOOA HUGE HIT DEAD".

  8. #8
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    As Rivin suggested, I would start off by bringing up your hit and expertise. Now, you said
    I get that active mitigation is great but if the problem is I am getting the crap beat out of me against mobs that used to tickle me, I fail to see how having less avoidance is going to help me?
    You have to understand that avoidance/CTC/whatever you knew about tanking before has changed. While we are block capped (never taking a full hit) in Cata, we cannot have that sweet 102.4% thing anymore. Which means that now we will get fully hit for 30k, 60k by trash mob. The idea is that we want to use Shield and WoG to survive. That is what makes landing a HoPo generator much more useful now compared to Cata.

    I'm hesitant to suggest one method of stats over another, especially because it depends on how you tank, who you work with, and I am not a theorycrafter. But I find that, at least for me, when I switched to getting hit capped (expertise capped is a bit harder to do with Cata gear, but I try to get at least 7.5%), I'm a lot more less squishy, even though I gave up a lot of parry and dodge.

    You can also experiment with the Divine Purpose tier. See how HA and SW works out for you. HA is good in that you can control when you want to spam shield/WoG for hard hitting phases (again, works much better when you are at least hit capped). SW works okay with your 2-set since you can spam judgement for the absorb shield, and you get healed for more during that time.

    It's a lot of experimenting when you're just starting out or coming back, but definitely try getting hit capped first.

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  9. #9
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Mind blowing. I thought my Warlock's play style changed a lot. This is just crazy. I guess I can try that. Weird...

  10. #10
    I am not sure getting hit/exp capped will help a lot with trash. I've done it. But as MerinPally points out in his stickied guide, you will take more damage as a result. Hit/exp capping is for controllability - for getting more active mitigation during bursts, but trash does not really burst.

    Glyphing DP will definitely help - we are weakest on the pull, when we have no HoPo for active mitigation. Popping DP then will help a lot. Personally, I would keep Holy Avenger - with Firelands trash, I suspect it might be up for most pulls (depends how fast you are killing stuff, but still). Using holy avenger on a pull would help with harder packs.

    But I suspect it is true - we are now more squishy. We've lost that stability that can from block cap and our health will jump up and down more. As people have said, WoG is great here. The fact that it scales with vengenance means it can be surprisingly powerful (SS also scales, so recast it after a big hit).

    And it's still the case that the when the tank dies, it's the healers' fault. They should be able to keep you up, but DS may have made them soft and if you are dying on older tier trash, I wonder if they are slacking. If your healers are on the ball, I think ShotR is generally a better use of Holy Power than WoG (the latter will lead to a lot of overhealing, while ShotR will smooth out damage spikes).

    If all else fails, apply CC and be aware of the special features of the particular trash (each pack has something that you should adjust too). We can have our own CC now - repentance. Glyph holy wrath for FL stuns. Mark targets and get dps to cc mobs. People think it slows things down, but I'm not convinced it's that significant.

  11. #11
    Mechagnome Jaojin's Avatar
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    Work on generating Holy Power fast and burning it quickly with SotR. The faster and more often you can get a SotR out the less squishy you will be (I also found that DP with the glyph was fantastic with the talent that lowers the cooldown per point of Holy power you spend.) Judge, CS/HotR, AS on procs SotR on 3 (or before you get to 5) for periods of moderate damage use DP, for heavy use a serious cooldown. Also make sure that you use HotR first to apply weakened blows on the mob, then you can use CS while it's up.

    I've managed to tank with this model in full holy gear.
    Last edited by Jaojin; 2012-09-18 at 09:40 PM.
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  12. #12
    In all honesty i feel less squishy then before, that may change at 90 but once you figure out the rotation and learn to keep your AM up as much as possible and build a flow with your healers, you will be fine.

  13. #13
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeonde View Post
    2. Tanks needing to cap hit/exp ...what is this game coming to...

    3. I was healing as often as I felt necessary but it was the spike damage that was really horrific. It was never a slow trickle, it was a... "Hey I'm tan-- WHOOOA HUGE HIT DEAD".
    We capped hit/expertise in WOTLK sometimes, especially in ICC progression and for some farm to help with threat so dps could go berserk. It's nothing new

    Essentially we're in a weird predicament where getting hit and expertise capped can increase our survivability, although we have to take a bit of a hit to get there. It's due to holy power generation and our mastery and the SHOTR buff. At this stage it really doesn't matter any more with MOP on monday but a lot of tanks including myself got hit and expertise capped during this pre patch.

    However in MOP, gear and enchants are laden with hit/exp so we may be in a weird situation where we have those stats on gear and whilst they're weaker, we don't actually reforge out of them. It sounds weird and it's quite complex but as hit/exp increase, the stat value of mastery does too so it's a balancing act.

    What I'm going to do this afternoon is go back through the sticky and there are certain bits I can make better and go more in depth for. I left some... not very basic but kinda simplified before the patch so people don't run in circles and I don't have to answer a barrage of questions, because half of the things won't make sense now but will at lvl 90. Considering that I go to university on Sunday and will have a week off due to Freshers, I'm now prepared to make it more in depth (also accounting for MOP proximity) and I won't be around to answer questions and the inevitable onslaught of "but what about CTC? Why is it different?" \o/
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    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  14. #14
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
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    It sounds like you're not yet used to the new active mitigation style of tanking. Gone are the days where you can get 300% threat and go make a cup of tea. If you're not constantly busy with using your damage reduction abilities, building up to more mitigation or debuffing the enemy, then there is a gap in your rotation.

    If you are doing everything properly, then there may be a lack of Gemming, Enchanting & Reforging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeonde View Post
    2. Tanks needing to cap hit/exp ...what is this game coming to...
    A much better place? You need your hits to land. As a former tank, I hated it when my Shield Slam missed, but it didn't matter either because who cared?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    As a former tank, I hated it when my Shield Slam missed, but it didn't matter either because who cared?
    That's true - I hated watching my avenger's shield swish over the enemy's head in a miss. It was a negative quality of life issue, even if it was the outcome of optimal gearing. Also, it's just boring to have clear "dump" stats that you want to reforge out of and a "no brainer" stat to reforge into (e.g. mastery for CTC).

    The current situation with tank stats is quite interesting - each stat seems fairly well balanced. Hit/exp are weaker for TDR, but have attractions for reliability as well as quality of life/dps. Mastery has varied but not OP benefits. Parry and dodge are stong for TDR, and ideally should be balanced with each other. Strength is a big source of avoidance as well as damage and has some value even when competing with stamina. Even haste is worth considering for us now. Maybe it won't last as the maths is developed and conventional wisdom says one gearing method is best. But for now, let a hundred flowers bloom.

  16. #16
    Banned rawhammer's Avatar
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    Im very much errring on the hit/expertise then mastery stacking for T14, and worry (reap the benefits) of getting more avoidance stats later on in the expansion when we have much more stats to mess around with. Im of the opinion that this will be the better route for the early tiers to smooth out that damage as much as possible.



    Currently I dont feel squishy at all, but then we shouldnt as we're rocking around in BIS gear at this point in the expansion in massively overnerfed content. MOP we shall see how we truely perform.

  17. #17
    I have noticed that I take a bit more dmg now at the start of fights, but once I get SHOR and SS rolling it's business as usual. I haven't noticed any real increase in overall damage taken, though it is more spiky.

    Now, a few things you may be missing:

    -HOTR is the ONLY way we can apply Weakened Blows currently (10% reduction in physical damage). Make sure you're using it every now and then, even as part of your single target rotation. You can extend the debuff to 60 seconds with the glyph.
    -Keep an eye on how many stacks of Bastion of Glory you have. If you've hit 5, then it's time to fire off a WoG so you don't waste stacks. You'll ideally want to use WoG when you have a Divine Purpose proc up (you did take Divine Purpose...didn't you?) or save one for it. If not, then you'll want to build 5x HoPo so you can WoG, get another HoPo and get your SHOR off right after.

  18. #18
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    -Keep an eye on how many stacks of Bastion of Glory you have. If you've hit 5, then it's time to fire off a WoG so you don't waste stacks.
    That's not really good advice. You should only be using Word of Glory when you need it, not whenever you get five stacks. You could sit on five stacks for the entire fight and never use them if you never need the heal.

  19. #19
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Well, a few things:

    1. I did not realize ONLY HoTR does Weakened Blows. I thought Crusader did it too. Definitely would've made a difference.

    2. I should glyph for Divine Protection.

    3. Yes I do have Divine Purpose. I will try to monitor 5 stacks of Bastion better. I was doing it at about 3.

    4. It's really hard to wrap my mind around hit/exp, since even in Wrath I didn't really do it. But, I do miss a LOT, and it is frustrating. So, I guess that if my Shield Slams are missing, that will cause me a lot of problems.

    I am personally a prisoner of habit, and change is something that I hate. Not great for a person who plays games that always change...but every start of an expansion I get extremely screwed up because I take a while to adjust. This will be tough for me, but all this feed back is awesome and helpful.

  20. #20
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeonde View Post
    4. It's really hard to wrap my mind around hit/exp, since even in Wrath I didn't really do it. But, I do miss a LOT, and it is frustrating. So, I guess that if my Shield Slams are missing, that will cause me a lot of problems.
    Missing with ShoR really doesn't matter, because you get the damage reduction buff no matter what. It's the Holy Power generators (CS, HotR, Judgment, and Avenger's Shield) that hit and expertise matter for (as well as for threat, of course).

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