Are Europeans Naturally Liberal?

[namelessone]

Yea, but Harper is a whole other kettle of douchebag. It is true though, our "Conservative" gov't would shock Americans to the core. I remember reading an article back in the day about if Canada were to become a state, by whatever means, how much of a change it would cause to the political landscape. It would be a consistent 18-20 million votes (guessing on voting people in my own country right now, kinda makes me sad) for the Democrats every year.

Hehehe. If americans saw Mulcair, they would have a heart attack =) Our opposition isn't even "liberal", it's outright socialist. Not that I mind.

[Lafarce]

Can't tell if sarcastic or not. The man is suggesting Greece went down because it was Socialist, which is just wrong. There's nothing wrong with Socialism. If there was, can you explain why Sweden is such a success at pretty much everything it does? That's just one example, there are plenty more. If I remember anyway it was the American system that collapsed, not socialism.



I probably think it's awful because I was brought up in the system where everyone gets the required treatment irrespective of outside factors, so I can't make an unbiased judgement. However, if the system is affordable to the government, I don't see how anyone could argue that a system where the rich get treated and the poor don't always, is better than one where everyone gets treated well always and if you want it NOW rather than with a small wait, then you can pay for it and get it as and when you need it. Even then, that system comes with a case of "if it's emergency, you bypass the queue"

The prime minister of Sweden is from the conservative party, just sayin'...

[Fojos]

The prime minister of Sweden is from the conservative party, just sayin'...

Conservative in Sweden is not really all that conservative though (Moderaterna wants to change everything, which is actually as far as you can get from conservative). The only large party that's truly conservative is SD.

[Kasierith]

she said that, just because shes a woman it doesnt mean that she shes pro women in politics. as mentioned her psychology is of a male, so we can look here for explanation.

I didnt say any, less is much more accurate.

about women to respect? women control/controlled world by rising men, first 5 years of life is most important. they are a good companions, they have bigger patience for keeping children safe, I mean those newborns that are screaming at night, most men simply cannot stand it, women are much more resilient, probably genetics, motherhood and things. I would never call woman "inferior being", they are different and excell in different spheres.

the problem is that so many, MANY people stopped to put a huge value in rising children, this is one of the most important duties that a human being can have.
.

So in that case, even were I to concede that your extremely sexist and ignorant post was factual.... would it not be beneficial to have females in government? To have those who are in charge of promoting public well being those with "genetic maternal instincts," who naturally do their best to protect those who cannot help themselves? Not to mention, if a woman can go through the task of taking care of a crying baby.. I'm sure a woman would have no problems dealing with the constant whining of constituents. Your post does nothing but show me me that women would be better politicians than males.

"Failed a little bit" is a bit gentle, seeing as the entire soviet system collapsed in on itself.

So things from 1915 are relevant? Well, according to Aristotle, your pants are quite literally and scientifically made out of fire so, ya, take that.

[Deleted]

she said that, just because shes a woman it doesnt mean that she shes pro women in politics. as mentioned her psychology is of a male, so we can look here for explanation.


ah forgot to mentioned, I dont remember date, 1915 or something, there was a concept in germany of a prosperous Germany and countries around with worse economics, cant really describe that because lack of language skills, english skill, but when you look at this official project and compare to current Eu then you may see how similar it is, of course not everything. Germany also took a huge strike, Germany debt is bigger than that of Greece, but nobody says anything just because everybid knows that when time comes Germany gonna pay it up while Greece refused to do it in the past.

Where are you getting all this stuff from? I can't find any of that in google search and I have even tried to change the wording, nothing comes up.

[Deleted]

i dont think you got "socialist", "conservative" and "liberal" a bit wrong.
not a single country you are speaking about has socialism as a system (if it doesnt mean anything else in english...). you mean social-democratic and that's a huge difference.

from a "european" (the countries are different, although we are growing together, which is great) view, i think your politics works less through arguments but through ideology. which in general is, in my opinion, an ancient thing dictators use to line up people (this is an exaggeration! ).
in germany (where i live) the so known conservative party also does social-democratic politics. there also are the social democrats, who are the 2nd "big party". we also have a "green" party with a lot of votes, a liberal party (they come somewhere close to your "fiscal responsibility" thought) and a left-wing party.
that's to give an overview.

the freedom you are speaking about, hasnt anything to do with government control. it's from my point of view another "idiology thing". more "control" does not mean less freedom. if you even out chances and unfair social inequalities, it actually means more freedom. here, you are "forced" to get a health insurance. because people, who dont have one, just die without help (if they dont make huge amounts of money). thats a huge simplification but from my point of view, to pick out a good example, your system looks like.
to compare it: in the us, if you are sick and are an average earner, you are a) insured and hopefully fine; b) broke but fine, though your children will never have a good education, being trapped in the same circle; c) dead.
here, if you are sick, you will get help. no matter what.
to break it down to education (since i used it above), which as we know most of the times resembles social status, we are still unfair. children of academics are still more likely getting higher education than children from lower social classes. with the same abilities/intellect(IQ). but we are working on it for decades now.

another comparison: obama would maybe be considered a conservative in germany, even right-wing conservative, since he is as most most americans a nationalist (though slowly giving america modern democratic instruments as caring for the whole population and not just the influential....). president bush before him would be a criminal and in jail. romney would be unvotable in a small ideology driven party nobody cared about.

another thing is, the us wont follow human rights. this actually puts them on a level (exaggeration again) with countries considered as "the axis of evil" (quote g.w.bush i think?). nobody can understand that, nor does it have a place in a democracy.

i hope, i could give you another point of view everybody likes the us and the world is watching the us-vote - dont do stupid things!

[Masark]

The best characterization of things I have found is this :

Europeans are naturally pessimists. They think that It (The Illness, The Injury, The Layoff, etc.) will happen to them and they arrange things (universal healthcare, safety net, etc.) accordingly to minimize the impact of It when it happens.

Americans are naturally optimists. They think that It (The Dream Job, The Lottery Win, The Inheritance, etc.) will happen to them and they arrange things (low top-end taxes, etc.) accordingly to maximize their gain.

[Shadowmelded]

In regards to the original question asked;

I don't think so no. My personal take on it (and it is an opinion so feel free to write it off) is that people's outlooks on life differ greatly on each side. I'll take my own country as an example so I can be more specific; Scotland. Scottish people are pretty cynical and jaded, we understand that life is chaotic and that a sudden turn of events (that could be out of our control) could leave any of us in terrible situations, so we're fairly sympathetic towards people in terrible situations, realising that it could be any of us if we're not lucky.

This clashes with the American Dream concept that 'Anyone can do it' which is misconstrued as 'Everyone can do it' If a large amount of your population believe they're just temporarily embarassed millionaires, why would they care what the 'lower orders' recieve? They're on their way to the top one of these days...

I'm not saying that Americans are devoid of empathy or sympathy, not at all, nor am I saying that social mobility is impossible or discouraged in Scotland, just that the way we view life, prosperity and where our priorities lie are extremely different.

[Kasierith]

It wouldnt, children are children and men are men. In a absolute illuminated monarchy there is no need for constituents whining around as there wouldnt be simply a need for that, our current people in giovernments ar emostly ""random"" people.

and sam ething gonna happen with EU - the thing you can clearly see with example of soviets is that it points a possibility of conspiracy: after WW II there were two groups of cosialistic countries, those who promoted democracy and free market and those of soviet block. I think it was more of a social experiment conducted by a certain mentioned group. by looking at your location you should know where democracy and socialism leads. also even USA after WW II became socialist country

So to put it down, nice and simple..... you equate socialism in the western world with Soviet communism?

No. No sane, rational person would say that 1915 matters over the present state of the world. Economics are completely different, in pretty much every way due to the influence of Keynes and the Austrian school. German education is drastically different from it was back then. The Russian government is completely different than that of Lenin's time. Things change.

So the genocides like the holocaust were all some sort of mass conspiracy then? All the fighting that has been going on for hundreds of years, was only to bring Europe to where it is now?

And you just said that it was a good thing that Stalin committed genocide, not only on the Poles but on his own people.... sorry. But I have no desire to talk with a spinspin guy who advocates wiping out entire populations of people

[Deleted]

and yes current EU is a fascism that controls you and limits on every step. it kills progress, theres that ugly idea that its better to be safe than sorry - USA got powerful thanks to risk not welfare

That same risk is what brought us this financial crisis. How exactly do you feel that you are being controlled by the EU? Have you ever lived under real fascism to be able to compare?

[Grizzly Willy]

Gin, what is the ideal form of government?

[Grizzly Willy]

So, anarchism then?

[gabrield]

Gin I would like to thank you!

It's people like you that can brighten any day. I would suggest that you publish your views so that clinical psychologists can present them to clinically depressed patients to read as no matter how down someone may be they can read said publication and realise that somewhere out there there is someone worse off than they are. By comparison to you I think homeless, drug addicted, diseased leach on society would feel that they are able to make a genuine contribution to society without any life changes whatsoever.

[Juno86]

Hehehe. If americans saw Mulcair, they would have a heart attack =) Our opposition isn't even "liberal", it's outright socialist. Not that I mind.

I'm interested to see what happens with the Liberal party and their rebuilding. In the mean time, I just hope Harper isn't a complete moron and screws us forever on the Oil sands and does the right thing with building new refineries.

PS. Gin, I've been around a lot of people who think outside the box, who see life in a different way and like to explore that. You on the other hand, are so outside the box your trying to tell us the box is a circle and a hexagon at the same time.

[Grizzly Willy]

Gin, I have to apologize. I have a really hard time taking you seriously, and I find your views on fascism and socialism to be quite odd. That said, I'll try and keep this polite.

What exactly is conservative liberalism? Is it libertarianism?

[Deleted]

that financial crisis was to be expected, thats also part of conspiracy, after USA started to inhale socialism. That is a good question, I cant buy my oscypek ( its a sort of cheese ) whenever I want and from whoever I want, sick regulations that "protects me", I'm forced to pay taxes for a useless organs of my country and for EU so totally, I wont call names but people who are in Eu Parliament, close to/ censored /. I cant send my kid to whatever school I want, I cant allow my child to stay at home and skip school. I'm forced to have insurance and retirement plan, forced OFE. European Union has a smart mechanism of producing beaurocracy thatyou need to pay for. remember that EU was trying to force ACTA. EU slows free market, minimal wages etc etc. sometimes you dont even know that you are limited until you try to do something.

fascism is fascism, and this european one is as same real as those black shirted guys in Rome. Whole problem is mentality, people due long indoctrinations are limited and afraid of free economy. good example, my own father who grew up in Polskiej Rzeczpospolitej Ludowej ( People's Republic of Poland <--- brr same name is wierd and horrific ) has horribly opinion about capitalism, if something is not steered by government then it is bad, the best are government jobs etc. and you see it everywhere, of course especially past eastern block but socialism is a plague that is consuming us at basic level. I dont blame those simple people who live in countries, fact is that we wont change anything if the "lords" wont allow us. EU gonna fall, sooner or later, I hope that I wont live when they gonna start formation of a new wonder.

The same EU that proposed ACTA also rejected it. If it wasn't for the EU parliament, the national governments would have forced it in their countries.

Those regulations are there so that we can have good quality products.

I'm sorry but comparing the EU with fascist Italy is complete nonsense. The EU won't fall any time soon and if you don't like it you are 100% free to vote for a party that wants to get out.

[Adam Jensen]

We would. I'm English and my dad used to work for JPMorgan in london so had good contact with lots of Americans. Was one guy who he was good friends with who was over here and he came to visit us when I was 7. They were discussing the NHS and my dad asked him how do poor people get by when someone in their family is taken ill and his answer?

"*laughs* Well Kevin, they just don't get ill" followed by a stern glare.

Isn't that simply the most terrifying idea to base a healthcare system around? Which is pretty much what the American one is? If you have the money, great we'll treat you, but if you don't, you're fucked. Goes against the Hippocratic oath. It may be a hell of an expense to keep it going but free healthcare is just too important.

I don't care that they're poor and I don't know them, I don't want to see their kids dead or deformed simply because the parents can't foot the bill.

As an American, I don't even understand this mindset. I agree with the Europeans. Access to medical care should not bankrupt you. Everyone should have healthcare, regardless of income.

[Kasierith]

Gin, I have to apologize. I have a really hard time taking you seriously, and I find your views on fascism and socialism to be quite odd. That said, I'll try and keep this polite.

What exactly is conservative liberalism? Is it libertarianism?

Apparently its the political movement of ignoring all factual evidence from the past 90 years, indulging in conspiracy theories as a means to attempt to perpetuate self worth, ignorant both of social structures and history, paranoid to the extreme and unable to form a cohesive argument. Logical fallacies serve as the primary backbone of its presentation. Sexist and racist, at least from an anti-semitic perspective, despite claims of being liberal and pro rights. A rare creature, to be sure, to encompass so many aspects.

[Grizzly Willy]

Apparently its the political movement of ignoring all factual evidence from the past 90 years, indulging in conspiracy theories as a means to attempt to perpetuate self worth, ignorant both of social structures and history, paranoid to the extreme and unable to form a cohesive argument. Logical fallacies serve as the primary backbone of its presentation. Sexist and racist, at least from an anti-semitic perspective, despite claims of being liberal and pro rights. A rare creature, to be sure, to encompass so many aspects.

It is rather perplexing. Suppose this is another case where I can't approach this practically in order to come to a resolution.

[Fojos]

Gin, I have to apologize. I have a really hard time taking you seriously, and I find your views on fascism and socialism to be quite odd. That said, I'll try and keep this polite.

What exactly is conservative liberalism? Is it libertarianism?

Liberal with conservative views? Liberal economics (free economy) with conservative views on social issues (harsh punishments for crimes etc).

(this is not directed at you, but at the OP) In Europe liberalism is almost the opposite of socialism. Much like your democrats and republicans. Socialism is more government control, higher taxes. Liberalism is less government control, lower taxes.