View Poll Results: Choose one from each category:

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  • A) Solve someone else's problems

    77 25.50%
  • A) Cause a problem and be forced to fix it

    155 51.32%
  • B) Learn about where demons come from

    167 55.30%
  • B) Learn about demonic limitations

    109 36.09%
  • C) Learn more about where your powers come from

    195 64.57%
  • C) Learn more about the history of warlocks

    99 32.78%
  • D) Solve puzzles

    143 47.35%
  • D) Defeat monsters

    110 36.42%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #21
    How do you create a puzzle that is not solved by going to WoW Head?

  2. #22
    Brewmaster klogaroth's Avatar
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    The first thing that springs to mind is something based on repeating a random sequence, though that's only gonna produce a handful of puzzles before they're all the same.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    How do you create a puzzle that is not solved by going to WoW Head?
    you can't. everything will be on wowhead the day after the quests are datamined. but people can choose to not follow guides and have fun, others will skip quest texts as always

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    How do you create a puzzle that is not solved by going to WoW Head?
    No idea. Has to be something random then, something that can only be reasoned through, or experimented through, not looked up. Something where you have 4 switches in 4 rooms and you have to push them in a certain order for something to happen. Maybe 4 cave rooms with a central cave in between them and then make a mob spawn (or several) every time you push the switch. No idea if you can program that to be random though, without making it a buggy mess.

    I've been wondering about this allready, so it's not a new thought, but I wonder how well the general population will react to a puzzle in the game. They aren't very used to having puzzles, and if they then also cannot go to Wowhead then I wonder how many will get really, really vocal, and pissy about it.

    Maybe the best way is to not actually make the puzzle un-Wowhead'able but just make it and hope that people interested in puzzles will solve it without going to Wowhead. I know I won't. ( Unless it's a complete ballbuster :S )
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  5. #25
    That's an interesting question. Are you concerned about the "answers" being easy for anyone to datamine, or the fact that once someone has completed it they can provide the information for everyone else to cruise through it?

    I never bothered to go for the legendary daggers on my rogue, but I hear the quest line at times required someone to use the rogue toolkit to get past certain parts. Things like that, you may know what you have to do but you still have to properly execute. What bits of flavor can be taken from something like that without necessarily feeling like you're copying it? Someone with the daggers could provide a lot more insight.

    Without having too much spoiled, it's hard to get a feel with what exactly constitutes a "puzzle" in WoW-sense.
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2012-09-19 at 10:31 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post

    I never bothered to go for the legendary daggers on my rogue, but I hear the quest line at times required someone to use the rogue toolkit to get past certain parts. Things like that, you may know what you have to do but you still have to properly execute. What bits of flavor can be taken from something like that without necessarily feeling like you're copying it? Someone who has done it could provide a lot more insight.
    Yeah, like a place where you have to control another demons and use their abilities to progress, banish, fear, kill a boss, learn about lore, all in that place, with cosmetic rewards

    the legendary daggers quest for rogues are great, and something like it would be pretty much welcomed to warlocks.

    xelnath, what if at the end of this "quest" our dreadsteed learns to fly \o/ and his flames turns green like our fire!!!1

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    That's an interesting question. Are you concerned about the "answers" being easy for anyone to datamine, or the fact that once someone has completed it they can provide the information for everyone else to cruise through it?

    I never bothered to go for the legendary daggers on my rogue, but I hear the quest line at times required someone to use the rogue toolkit to get past certain parts. Things like that, you may know what you have to do but you still have to properly execute. What bits of flavor can be taken from something like that without necessarily feeling like you're copying it? Someone with the daggers could provide a lot more insight.

    Without having too much spoiled, it's hard to get a feel with what exactly constitutes a "puzzle" in WoW-sense.
    The rogue spell arsenal is a bit more varied though, then the current Warlock spellbook. We don't have things like Distract or Stealth or Pick Pocket that could be used to make things interesting.

    We could:

    -enslave a demon
    -go underwater for a bit
    -Eye of Kilrogg could be used for something.
    -Both our portals if level 90
    -maybe some Demon abilities, like Seduction or Dispell (though you'd have to have some warning that you need to switch pets maybe)

    Actually a bigger list then I anticipated. Not sure how you could make a puzzle with that stuff though.

    On the topic of what a puzzle would be, we had one in Hyjal in an Ogre Cave where you had to activate elemental thingies in a specific order as provided by a (tiny bit) riddled bit of text. Not the worlds most difficult puzzle, but a puzzle none the less.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zharradan View Post
    Yeah, like a place where you have to control another demons and use their abilities to progress, banish, fear, kill a boss, learn about lore, all in that place, with cosmetic rewards

    the legendary daggers quest for rogues are great, and something like it would be pretty much welcomed to warlocks.

    xelnath, what if at the end of this "quest" our dreadsteed learns to fly \o/ and his flames turns green like our fire!!!1
    It's hard to speculate about this without your imagination flying off in directions that are vastly different from what's going on internally, but in comparing a Warlock-specific quest to the Rogue daggers, I was trying to think of what we'd use in our toolkit to complete it.

    Enslave Demon would be a great way to expand that kit beyond what's typically available to us. That's a good thing to bring up. I don't know what in-game demon mob spells would apply to this, but I wonder if they wouldn't come up with new utilities just for this purpose.



    Re: Puzzles. You also have that small quest chain in the badlands where you go into the ruins and have a couple of puzzles to solve (aiming the light beam and placing the figurines so they all face the center).
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2012-09-19 at 11:01 PM.

  9. #29
    A) Cause a problem and be forced to fix it
    B) Learn about demonic limitations
    C) Learn more about where your powers come from
    D) Defeat monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    How do you create a puzzle that is not solved by going to WoW Head?
    With AI and not a script
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  10. #30
    A) Cause a problem and be forced to fix it

    - Chose this as it's a demonstrator of ability to control our power, but a reminder of the dangers of it.

    B) Learn about where demons come from

    - This because there's so little in game already. I think Xoroth is the only demon world that actually gets a mention, while limitations are rather self evident.

    C) Learn more about where your powers come from

    - Same as above, there's not a lot already known, while some historical Warlocks are already noted. If you were to change that to 'current' Warlocks of note, I think I'd go for that instead.

    D) Solve puzzles

    - Killing monsters is easy, strategising on how to kill them is what keeps me engaged.

    Edit: Changing my mind on C. All the notable Warlocks are Big Evils, there are evidently more with varying degrees of corruption, it'd be nice to know who practices or practiced, and why they didn't/don't end up going that same way. If there are enough around to be justifyable as a player class, then evidently not all end up going crazy.

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    How do you create a puzzle that is not solved by going to WoW Head?
    Randomization of core elements helps, such that even if people can get a walkthrough for what the general process is, they still have to figure out their version.

    Additionally, Wowhead can only do so much — for example, a Wowhead/YouTube step-by-step walkthrough of the Gilneas City infiltration during Assassinate Creed can handhold people, but there's still value (and challenge) to the experience of doing it yourself and figuring it out. The players who really, really need that guidance (either due to lack of motivation, or lack of skill) probably should be allowed access to it. Players who don't need it probably won't even seek the source, or will solve it on their own naturally.

    Ultimately it's sort of like progression raiding I think — the people who really, really care about doing it themselves will be there doing it long before the guides and strats go up, or won't look them up because they enjoy solving it themselves. From there, the completion rate will gradually bleed out to everyone who has any motivation to get involved, with each person stepping in as their personally-needed level of help/assistance/nerf is reached.

    So I think a well-designed puzzle or "Do you know how to use your abilities? Do you really?" will still be enjoyable for everyone involved, with the rate of walkthrough bleedout occurring more or less proportional to / in pace with the rate that a given level of player is ready to consume the content.

    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    The rogue spell arsenal is a bit more varied though, then the current Warlock spellbook. We don't have things like Distract or Stealth or Pick Pocket that could be used to make things interesting.
    @ Seduction & stuff...

    Now see that would be great. You encounter some obstinate, decadent, powerful entity that you need something from. Your first approach is to just kill the bastard, but he smashes your face in, tells you "Nice try", raises you back from the dead and tells you to get lost just to humiliate you.

    ... Finally, you figure out to just have your Succubus seduce him and steal the item while he's "busy".

    It could be randomized per player such that you're not sure what pet you need to defeat him, and you need to use clues in dialogue and environment to deduce it. For example, if instead you get some chaste, obnoxious Paladin wielding a magically enchanted shield that makes him immune to harm, your Succubus won't work. But if you Disarm him with your Voidlord, he's caught off-guard and you can murder him. etc.

    Or a maze, with invisible traps that cause instant death. But your Eye of Kilrogg can perceive them, so you have to take it on a tour of the maze first, planning out your route, and then quickly rush through before the runes are randomized again and rearranged.

    An enemy that curses you such that you and your pet take massive periodic damage proportional to your current % Health, so you need to keep your Health as low as possible. But you also need to fight the enemy, so if it melees you at such low health you'll be 2-3 shot. So you have to play a balancing act with having your pet tank it, while keeping your Health as low as possible by Health Funneling to your pet, without dropping so low that the reduced periodic curse kills you, and without healing yourself too high so that you start taking too much damage again.

    Ooh, or an enemy binds their soul to yours such that you share a Health bar, so you have to play HP Chicken by Life Tapping yourself as low as possible and then quickly killing them before they can react and deliver a killing blow on you.

    Or even something simple, like your NPC helper trying to figure out how to bring a powerful ally past enemy defenses ... so you cast Ritual of Summoning, and he goes, "Hey, good idea" and starts helping you channel it. ^^

    This is fun :D
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2012-09-19 at 11:54 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    We could:

    -enslave a demon
    -go underwater for a bit
    -Eye of Kilrogg could be used for something.
    -Both our portals if level 90
    -maybe some Demon abilities, like Seduction or Dispell (though you'd have to have some warning that you need to switch pets maybe)

    Actually a bigger list then I anticipated. Not sure how you could make a puzzle with that stuff though.
    -Two elite demons guarding a gate or an artefact. Enslave one and attack the other until one dies, then kill the remaining one that is almost dead.
    -not sure if can do much with underwater simply because the buff lasts for too long.
    -Use the eye of Kilrogg to spy someone or activate something through openings that are too small for you? like a breach on the wall of a castle.
    -Use portals to retrieve an object protected by traps that won't let you get back alive. Also the new portal to dodge some more frequent sort of trap platform game style
    -summon other demons for you to ask questions about what to do or "what the hell is written here?" that he will only answer with a charade.

  13. #33
    If this is related to the Quest for (Green) Fire.....somewhere along the lines there needs to be a Warlock NPC named Jessicka that laments the fact that her fire isn't sufficiently mauve for her tastes.
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2012-09-20 at 12:08 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    @ Seduction & stuff...

    Now see that would be great. You encounter some obstinate, decadent, powerful entity that you need something from. Your first approach is to just kill the bastard, but he smashes your face in, tells you "Nice try", raises you back from the dead and tells you to get lost just to humiliate you.

    ... Finally, you figure out to just have your Succubus seduce him and steal the item while he's "busy".

    It could be randomized per player such that you're not sure what pet you need to defeat him, and you need to use clues in dialogue and environment to deduce it. For example, if instead you get some chaste, obnoxious Paladin wielding a magically enchanted shield that makes him immune to harm, your Succubus won't work. But if you Disarm him with your Voidlord, he's caught off-guard and you can murder him. etc.

    Or a maze, with invisible traps that cause instant death. But your Eye of Kilrogg can perceive them, so you have to take it on a tour of the maze first, planning out your route, and then quickly rush through before the runes are randomized again and rearranged.

    An enemy that curses you such that you and your pet take massive periodic damage proportional to your current % Health, so you need to keep your Health as low as possible. But you also need to fight the enemy, so if it melees you at such low health you'll be 2-3 shot. So you have to play a balancing act with having your pet tank it, while keeping your Health as low as possible by Health Funneling to your pet, without dropping so low that the reduced periodic curse kills you, and without healing yourself too high so that you start taking too much damage again.

    Ooh, or an enemy binds their soul to yours such that you share a Health bar, so you have to play HP Chicken by Life Tapping yourself as low as possible and then quickly killing them before they can react and deliver a killing blow on you.

    Or even something simple, like your NPC helper trying to figure out how to bring a powerful ally past enemy defenses ... so you cast Ritual of Summoning, and he goes, "Hey, good idea" and starts helping you channel it. ^^

    This is fun :D
    Quote Originally Posted by Snakez View Post
    -Two elite demons guarding a gate or an artefact. Enslave one and attack the other until one dies, then kill the remaining one that is almost dead.
    -not sure if can do much with underwater simply because the buff lasts for too long.
    -Use the eye of Kilrogg to spy someone or activate something through openings that are too small for you? like a breach on the wall of a castle.
    -Use portals to retrieve an object protected by traps that won't let you get back alive. Also the new portal to dodge some more frequent sort of trap platform game style
    -summon other demons for you to ask questions about what to do or "what the hell is written here?" that he will only answer with a charade.
    I like some of these ideas.

    We've got Banish and Fear too so we could use those for some CC in certain situations. With those you could probably make it 3 Elite Demons. Banish 1, Enslave 1, Kill one. Kill banished one second, then kill Enslaved one last. Make it so you'll have to actually Banish the first one a second time to make it a bit less of a straight Nuke.

    What we also didn't mention is the various vehicule options there are. I read about there being a quest in Mists where you have a simple 1 button control while being Chen Stormstout, which was mentioned because someone asked about the Vashj'ir Naga quests that work the same way. I wouldn't mind having a Vision of some sort where you get to control someone in a crucial situation of some sort and using a custom vehicule UI with some new interesting buttons. That would open up a whole bunch of possibilities what you could do in terms of puzzles.
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  15. #35
    A)Cause a problem, then work to fix it
    Fixing Someone Elses Problem Isn't Something that a warlock should do..a Healer class maybe But not a Warlock!a Class that is Made of Pure Evil But Stayed on the Good Side

    B)Learn about where demons come from
    I Would Love to Learn More about Where our Demons come from and how is the Place there for them..if they Co-exist with each other or no

    C)Learn more about where your powers come from
    It Would be Really Interesting to Find out how we got Those Powers at First place,Who Tried to Corrupt those Human Beings that Didn't Follow that Persons' Orders and how we Even managed to do that?Just by Having Strong will?

    D)Solve puzzles
    I Chose this Instead of "Defeat Monsters" As I can't Imagine JUST Defeating Monsters could be Amusing enough at all!
    Solving a Puzzle although would be Great if it also Included Monster killing in it WHILE Solving the Puzzle

    EX:Having to Keep an Elite Enemy off you(Void tank?Seduction/Mesmerize?) while you Input a ~!RANDOM!~ Code in Demonic Language(No Clue how to Fit that in Without Having to Spec Demonology Everytime..Maybe a Potion?) that you Find out Slowly while Progressing through a Solo instance Killing Small "Raid Bosses" that Require you to use all 3 Warlock Specs(Or stick with one But its Gonna be harder)..It Will be More than One Single Word and if you Fail on Finding it with the First Try(so as not to Abuse the fact that you almost did it but you didnt Pay attention to the words at all so you Just Throw Random Words/letters until you get the Combination)
    you Will be Taken back to the Start of the Instance Having to Start ALL over again and Getting the Words Reset to new Ones
    Setting a Time Limit Sounds Nice Too and Of Course...Scaled Down Gear to An Appropriate Level so we NEVER Outgear that Quest Even in Other Expansions

    Demonology Could be Used in a Boss that is Immune to every Kind of Damage except the one Coming From Demons(So Demonology Has the Upper Hand Due to Demon form/DA+Better Pets But the Rest Specs Can kill it with their Demon too)

    Destruction Could be Used in a Boss that Has An Immunity Shield to Fire Damage+Crit Reduction Debuff every so and then But in order to remove it you have to Score a Critical on him.Destruction With Chaos Bolt is the Easiest one to Do but you Can also Do it as Affliction Trying to Get your Dots to Crit or Demo trying to get your Demonic Slash/Dots to Crit(Demons Crit Wont Work ^_^)
    (Immunity to Fire will make Soulfire Useless During that Phase so as to Give Destruction the Upper Hand)

    Affliction Could be Used in a boss that is Immune to all Direct Damage Spells so Still Destruction and Demo Can beat it But Affliction will do it Much easier

    Now you Will ask How are you Supposed to Change Specs/glyphs/talents Etc...Well its a Warlock Instance with Warlock Npc's There to Help you!Them Beeing Trainers that Can make you Respec for Free BUT once you Leave the Instace or Fail to Find the Word your Spec will be the one you Entered the Instance Also Those Bosses Not Beeing in a Specific Pattern but Random too so you Dont Enter with the 2 First Needed Specs and then Respec Once

    That Would make a Puzzle that Wowhead Wont Help you Much due to Randomization & During the Instance (Or within instance and before it) you Will get Answers for the Rest of the Questions Through Awesome Wrath Gate-Like Cinematics/Quest Texts etc etc etc...
    Last edited by apokotou1709; 2012-09-20 at 12:48 AM.

  16. #36
    Brewmaster smegdawg's Avatar
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    A)Solve someone else's problems - I love questing, and this is what you do for the quest givers. I always enjoy it the most when I do it for someone who intrigues me. So a "time travel" Quest from Gul'dan would be pretty badass.

    B)Learn where demons come from - Our demon's have names, they are not just some ambiguous demon soldier #3431. It would be very fun to find out where they come from. What they have done. Maybe what worlds and races they have conquered. If they know anything about the next Attack on Azeroth.

    C)Learn more about where our powers come from - This to me feels like it could cover both questions, and either one would be very cool to learn about.

    D)Solve Puzzles - We do enough monster slaying, whether its dungeoning raiding, or grinding mobs I think its safe to say we have enough chances to use our abilities to melt faces.

    Randomization is definitely the way to go. Written tests for Drivers Licenses coome to mind. The questions are all in a large batch, but then only selected ones are given to you in random order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Or a maze, with invisible traps that cause instant death. But your Eye of Kilrogg can perceive them, so you have to take it on a tour of the maze first, planning out your route, and then quickly rush through before the runes are randomized again and rearranged
    This is a great example.

    Another way to prevent the walkthroughs is to make them difficult as hell. Thats not to say that you need to have the best gear, but that you need to be able to use all the tools at your arsenal.

    Imagine you are on the top of the hill with some sort of friendly NPC and portals spawn all around the bottom of the hill. A demon pops out of one and starts running at you. But all of your damaging abilities are shrugged off as nothing. The NPC then charges down the hill and beats the demon to death with his axe. At this point Demons start walking out of every portal and you have to use every CC, stun, and snare in your arsenal to ensure that the demons don't make it to the top of the hill before your NPC friend can kill them.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by smegdawg View Post
    Another way to prevent the walkthroughs is to make them difficult as hell. Thats not to say that you need to have the best gear, but that you need to be able to use all the tools at your arsenal.

    Imagine you are on the top of the hill with some sort of friendly NPC and portals spawn all around the bottom of the hill. A demon pops out of one and starts running at you. But all of your damaging abilities are shrugged off as nothing. The NPC then charges down the hill and beats the demon to death with his axe. At this point Demons start walking out of every portal and you have to use every CC, stun, and snare in your arsenal to ensure that the demons don't make it to the top of the hill before your NPC friend can kill them.
    Could be done in 2 ways this. One where another warlock has caused these portals to spawn and you've got asked (ordered) to make sure nothing bad comes of it to preserve the good warlock name and if you chose the other option in the poll it's actually YOU that caused the portals to spawn and you have to clean up your own mess.
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  18. #38
    However it's done there must be an instanced part using the Challenge Mode itemisation capping tech to ensure that getting this remains a lasting challenge and a big deal. It'd be a shame to put all this effort in, only for it to end up trivialised before the expansion is over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    If this is related to the Quest for (Green) Fire.....somewhere along the lines there needs to be a Warlock NPC named Jessicka that laments the fact that her fire isn't sufficiently mauve for her tastes.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    However it's done there must be an instanced part using the Challenge Mode itemisation capping tech to ensure that getting this remains a lasting challenge and a big deal. It'd be a shame to put all this effort in, only for it to end up trivialised before the expansion is over.
    That is an excellent idea. These kinds of "epic event for everyone" things definitely should be iLevel-capped. The players who are good enough to get the top-level gear won't even notice the difference because they know how to play already, and everyone else will get to experience the content "fairly" — ie, it can be designed with a clear expectation of what any challenger is going up against it with.

    But I'm on the more dangerous side of "meh, gear" in general philosophy so I may be approaching MMOs from the wrong angle. :p

  20. #40
    Cool poll! It would be awesome to see how they'd handle a puzzle-solving aspect to the game. Had to go with causing a problem, too. Warlocks are walking disasters.

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