View Poll Results: Choose one from each category:

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  • A) Solve someone else's problems

    77 25.50%
  • A) Cause a problem and be forced to fix it

    155 51.32%
  • B) Learn about where demons come from

    167 55.30%
  • B) Learn about demonic limitations

    109 36.09%
  • C) Learn more about where your powers come from

    195 64.57%
  • C) Learn more about the history of warlocks

    99 32.78%
  • D) Solve puzzles

    143 47.35%
  • D) Defeat monsters

    110 36.42%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    How do you create a puzzle that is not solved by going to WoW Head?
    I'm just going to talk. Try to ignore me as I rarely say anything worth anything.

    But a puzzle like this would have to push the boundaries of a class, so much that when people find out that our class has this little "thing" it could be seen as imbalanced.

    But beyond that, the easiest way to create a puzzle without solving it by going to wowhead is to make it extremely complex and add multiple variables. So basically, sure you can get the "jist" of what you're to do, but the adventure getting there and the choices you make will still be on you.

    I'd like to point out the legendary quest line, the dungeon created for it was challenging to do in early tier gear, and because of that, it was fun. So an element like that would be great to add to a puzzle, make mini-bosses drop certain items to be used in said puzzle and then have the puzzle itself. You really really should instance this if you're going to do it right, "world" puzzles are really no fun considering they have to be normalized for any tom, dick, or harry that runs across this (also note that I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to what we get, so toggle this as if it was based on a very powerful spell or object (think doomguard or legendary staff))

    Now for the puzzle, randomization is always a great thing. Think account-bound type of puzzle. You loot a chest that gives you one out of (depending on how you guys do loot and/or quests) an infinite variation of a puzzle. The puzzle will always be in the same style, but getting to the end may be different. I'm going to give you an example of how I would set up an instance, there are five examples of puzzles in the order I would do them in. Obviously you are to take this with a grain of salt.

    Puzzle A out of E is a maze puzzle. You have to roam the dungeon/area and find 5 mobs in 15 possible locations in order. The first mob you kill will be right in front of you and drop an item, said item will give you a "riddle" to the next location. Now sure, you can wowhead this, but reading the clue and adventuring is not only funner, but it would actually take longer to go to wowhead (this is puzzle A, its easy!)

    Puzzle B out of E is a math/logical puzzle. You open a tile on a wall and you have to complete the pattern. Now to do this, I would start with a 125IQ challenge (so basically 2-3 minutes to figure out for those with IQs of 125 or over (i.e the top end of above average, going into gifted)) and have it drop by 10 points per every ten minutes of failures until you reach IQ95, this will allow players who are dedicated (and intelligent) to rush into it and try their hardest, without allowing them to exploit and slide through the 90IQ version. The pattern itself should be something easy to randomize (symbols in a certain order, or a slide table, or sodoku type) and when you "finish" the door or portal or w/e will unlock.

    Puzzle C should be a boss fight that is literally a dps race while keeping us alive. I'm talking give us a full set of legendary warlock gear blessed (read: damned) upon us by some demon lord from some corner of the nether and let us have fun. Give us 2M chaos bolts, give us 200% haste, give us permasuper meta with a green aura, give us everything and let us go to town. It will be fun watching recount say we're doing one million dps and it will be fun avoiding one shot mechanics and potential buffs/debuffs. This is a once in a life time thing, make it cool.

    Puzzle D should be a co-ordination puzzle, we're coming down from our high and are in our second wind. For this puzzle think Alysrazor and flying through rings. Have us ride the waves with our demon form or a doomguard or some type of flying demon, let us shoot something out of the sky while also maintaining our health. (So like Maly + Alysrazor). This fight is simple and cannot be wowheaded since you can't have wowhead play for you. :P

    Puzzle E should be the hardest and should be a mix of all four. Let your imagination run wild, develop whatever you want, but be sure to recap on everything so far so its like we learned something. Make the puzzle FEEL similar, give us similar debuffs, similar challenges mid puzzle. I, personally, would have the place collapse or something, so you have to run out. But to open the door, gotta find three mobs, then open a puzzle door, then kill a mini-boss, then finally get on your steed and run through a collapsing floor.

    Now, obviously a lot of this is more like "lets make a new video game just for warlocks" type of thing, but this is an idea that, if ever implemented, would excite me greatly. So take from this little fantasy I have whatever you can and I hope it shows you a view (albeit limited) of what a Warlock wants.
    Last edited by Brauhm; 2012-09-20 at 01:45 PM.
    Soulburn: Unstable Affliction. A boy can dream.

  2. #42
    Funny how solving someone else's problem is in there...

    We're the most selfish class ingame, it would go against our nature to HELP someone else.
    Magnificence personified

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by qu1rex View Post
    Funny how solving someone else's problem is in there...

    We're the most selfish class ingame, it would go against our nature to HELP someone else.
    Depends what you're going to get out of it. Let's be honest though, the whole game is dealing with someone else's problem - Deathwing, Arthas, Yogg-Sarron, Kil'jaeden, Illidan, Ragnaros, C'Thun, etc etc: All other peoples problems we had to clear up.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Depends what you're going to get out of it. Let's be honest though, the whole game is dealing with someone else's problem - Deathwing, Arthas, Yogg-Sarron, Kil'jaeden, Illidan, Ragnaros, C'Thun, etc etc: All other peoples problems we had to clear up.
    And as far as the stories (council of six) go, it's mainly because if we didn't do it, it'd mean the destruction of ourselves.

    The arterial motive being that we can use the powers that we go to fight against after we defeat them.

    That said, I guess Xelnath did state he wasn't going into detail as to what it could mean.
    Magnificence personified

  5. #45
    This is just awesome, really good job. It's this kind of work that makes us put faith into the developers. To be honest, I was accumulating a lot of negative views about you Xelnath, until now.

    Although I'm confident you'll do a great job (since you've shown us that you really know how to bake the warlock class' flavor, that I'll admit ), I just wanted to propose something for the puzzles:
    It could be some sort of movement puzzle/labyrinth that requires smart use of both our portal and gateway in an x and y axis environment.
    Something like platform A moves horizontally unless you move to platform B and press a button. But if you press this specific button then platform A will move vertically, making you unable to reach platform A unless you teleport.

    Of course this is just a simplified version, you could add more layers of complexity and include range limitations in order for us to chain our movement abilities for example. Also, swapping talents for different encounters would be nice.
    Taking Burning Rush for a labyrinth with a time limit and spaced out platforms that require a bigger than average jump distance (achievable through increased speed) comes to mind. AND, in that specific case you can't regenerate health so you'd have to choose wisely when to activate and de-activate burning rush.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  6. #46
    Brewmaster smegdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qu1rex View Post
    Funny how solving someone else's problem is in there...

    We're the most selfish class ingame, it would go against our nature to HELP someone else.
    Totally depends on what we get out of it. I chose the "Solving Someone Else's Problem" because it is an ends to a means. I am not Helping this person. I am helping myself because I see that this person is very powerful and if I do what they ask I will be rewarded. I am not helping someone for the sake of helping them.

    Let's say a very powerful Warlock just opened a portal to a demon world and they are trying to pull him through. He begs me for his help and I do it on the condition that he teaches me some dark secrets to how he amassed such power.

  7. #47
    No choice for.. ALL OF THEM!!

    Seriously though, Warlock history and where/how the demons come to be are really up in the top for me too.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by qu1rex View Post
    And as far as the stories (council of six) go, it's mainly because if we didn't do it, it'd mean the destruction of ourselves.

    The arterial motive being that we can use the powers that we go to fight against after we defeat them.

    That said, I guess Xelnath did state he wasn't going into detail as to what it could mean.
    Exactly what I meant by the first sentence. It'd be a change to screw up ourselves for once, and in the process go through B and C, learning about Demons, their limitations and where they're from, the source of our power and the where's and how's our forbears learned to wield it before ultimately using it in D to learn to wield our Mauve fire.

  9. #49
    Stood in the Fire Bombino's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if I read it wrong but I see the two as linked. "defeating monsters" seems mindless, whereas "solving puzzles" requires work and thought. I see them as linked big time.

    I too like "defeating monsters" , but the fun is in "solving the puzzle" so you can ultimately defeat a monster or whatever other end. The difficulty and design of the puzzle/encounter, etc. is what makes WoW fun..to me.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Does it involve riding on moving platforms?
    I think this game needs more riding on moving platforms!

    and switches where lighting a torch opens one door and closes another.
    and Boomerangs!

    I would like to see a little bit of instanced content, where we really are on our own, relying entirely on the resources we bring with us. I wouldn't mind being sent to a demon world like Xoroth, or back in time to the corruption of Nerzhul or Medhiv or Azshara or Kael'thas, or even Archimonde and Kiljaedan.

    Actually i would really like to know what character classes Archimonde and Kiljaedan were before they became warlocks, but that's beside the point.

    I think use of the Eye Kilrog would be great for puzzle solving, since we can place demonic portals whever the Eye can fly we could be forced to use the eye to creat paths between otherwise inaccessible places (atop cliffs, across ravines)

    I agree that any skill we lack from our Warlock Spellbook can be given to us temporarily by enslaving a demon.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geothermal View Post
    Had to go with causing a problem, too. Warlocks are walking disasters.
    That about sums it up. ^^

  12. #52
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    A) It just feels more personal to fix a problem you have caused yourself - but also we go around fixing stuff for everybody so could be either

    B) Our Demons don't really have that much story ... much more now because all the quests are out of the game - it would be awesome to learn more about them(maybe you could walk with them through some of their plains to gather some background information about them)

    C) I want to see where our powers come from ... from what plains/demons we drain it or how/why they changed. Some history on other warlocks would be cool as well(or even seeing them finding/gaining the power).

    D) I don't really see the point in dividing these options ... I want to be challenged as a player(and a Warlock) and to have to use all my abilities to defeat enemies ... I really liked the legendary staff dungeon because some parts of it were really difficult ... I don't want to sit in front of a puzzle or just use some questitems in the right order

    My opinions on some suggestions and my own:
    normalizing gear for it would be to harsh because if some people really can't defeat it I would be okay with it being easier with better gear

    It would be awesome if we could fight against some enemy(or lich) that connects his health with ours because he knows that he resurrects because of his Phylactery/giant glowing thing but you trick him because you soul stone yourself before your death and destroy his backup plan

    Using the eye for some action would be great too ...

    You could for example help some warlock open a portal to a demonic plain just to find out that he is(corrupt/evil/demonic/whatever) and see him jump through it and close the portal behind himself ... you look for a way to follow him(portal isn't a option anymore because he sealed it/left guardians/...) and with the help of some other warlocks(npcs) you learn to control your demons even in their own plains(only temporary) and so you follow him through the different demonic plains to impede his success(while also meeting other demons or getting to know your own demon(whose mind isn't gone just in the background)

    yeah ... or something else that is awesome
    Last edited by Iffnar; 2012-09-20 at 05:51 PM. Reason: double words

  13. #53
    I would like a concept where you tread the road of a mage/arcanist and find out about a great portion of the way of life, therefore leading to the assumption to empower your innate abilities in order to tear asunder the forces that bind one's actions, reality itself as a warlock.

    However, the player's reason for helping the faction would be either specific or a means of paving one's own solitary way.

  14. #54
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iffnar View Post
    B) Our Demons don't really have that much story ... it would be awesome to learn more about them (maybe you could walk with them through some of their plains to gather some background information about them)
    ....
    you learn to control your demons even in their own plains(only temporary) and so you follow [a target] through the different demonic plains to impede his success(while also meeting other demons or getting to know your own demon (whose mind isn't gone just in the background)
    I love the idea of having to visit the home realm of each of some or each of our demons. even if it's just teensy pieces of it.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    I love the idea of having to visit the home realm of each of some or each of our demons. even if it's just teensy pieces of it.
    I would ~love~ to actually get to glimpse a Legion world, or the environment of the Twisting Nether itself. There was so much coolness about TBC and while WOTLK was an awesome, rugged contrast, the game world has gotten really really mundane for too long.

  16. #56
    Do you mean me, or my character ? That would influence my response(s) ...

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    I love the idea of having to visit the home realm of each of some or each of our demons. even if it's just teensy pieces of it.
    As awesome as this would be, I doubt we'd get our own little zone for this. More likely is that the quest would take us to variations on Bastion of Twilight and Black Temple or something, following the trail of the Council of Six Daggers; kinda like the Quel'dalar quest uses the Sunwell. I certainly hope that's the case :3

  18. #58
    WOAAAW, that idea of our demons taking us to visit their world is awesome. there, they could ambush us(quest begin here) and at the end you finally escape, but by the long exposition to fel magic, you gain some tattoos of fel magic on your body and your fire turns green (or mauve...)

    and then, you learn drain mana and shadowflame back O/// (this part is a joke)

  19. #59
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    As awesome as this would be, I doubt we'd get our own little zone for this. More likely is that the quest would take us to variations on Bastion of Twilight and Black Temple or something, following the trail of the Council of Six Daggers; kinda like the Quel'dalar quest uses the Sunwell. I certainly hope that's the case :3
    probably more realistic to use pre-existing zones with new mobs, i would not mind venturing into the black temple solo to get some artifact of Ilidan's, or back in time to Well of Eternity or battle for Mt Hyjal, etc etc etc.

  20. #60
    A: The way I see it, warlocks are a bit like Terry Pratchett's wizards. We're a selfish lot, and we have a complex ranking system based on perceived superiority. The last thing a warlock would do is ask for help, as that's basically admitting you're inferior.

    Both options are pretty valid, being asked for help gives you ample opportunity to gloat and fixing your own mistake allows you to keep your superiority ranking (and possibly increase it). I went for the 'fix your own problem' option mostly because, like Jessika said, there's already plenty of opportunities to fix other people's problems. Solving your own problems is pretty rare in WoW, and it tends to be a more personal experience.

    B: This one's pretty tough. Though we know a lot of general information about where our demons come from and what they're capable of, we don't really know a lot about their specifics. I voted for 'learn about demonic limitations,' but either option would be fine with me.

    C: Choice C is in the same position as choice B. We know about a few key figures in warlock history and we know a bit about where our powers come from, but not much beyond that. I went with 'learn more about your power source' but again I'd be happy with either.

    D: This one was pretty easy. We fight monsters all the time, but puzzles are few and far between. Even better would to fight monsters while completing a puzzle, or to fight a monster that is a puzzle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    How do you create a puzzle that is not solved by going to WoW Head?
    That is a bit of a problem. I helped out in solving the puzzle to acquire the Branch of Nordrassil for the legendary staff quest, and that was pretty fun, but once solved you can't really un-solve it for everyone else.

    A randomized element can work, but that can cause problems where difficulty is irregular, or randomization can potentially create an unsolvable puzzle. I do like the idea of using a semi-randomized set of pseud-IQ questions, possilby some sort of pattern recognition test using demonic runes and the like.

    Using time as an element can also prevent guides from making a puzzle too easy or quickly solvable with a guide. Some of the more memorable (if frustrating) examples would be the crystals in Ogri'la and Finklestein's daily quest. Both puzzles are fairly simple 'repeat the pattern' and 'find the item' puzzles, but since you don't have much time to do them correctly they can be a challenge. However, this type of element can have issues with lag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Or a maze, with invisible traps that cause instant death. But your Eye of Kilrogg can perceive them, so you have to take it on a tour of the maze first, planning out your route, and then quickly rush through before the runes are randomized again and rearranged.
    Actually, there's a couple maze puzzles like this in MoP already. In some of the mogu ruins (specifically, the Ruins of Guo-Lai in VoEB) there's a tile maze, where there's one predetermined "safe" tile, and all other tiles do a different type of damage, plus there's patrolling statues to avoid. Every day the safe tile and the maze pattern is randomized.

    However, as a warlock, you can completely skip the maze with Demonic Gateway and Demonic Circle + Glyph of Eye of Kilrogg.

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