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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    1. I don't understand where you're getting your facts about 90% of Frost DK's spam howling blast. You obviously didn't invest enough time in your DK to see what potential lies within the class. I dare say I was like you, someone who played a Warrior and made fun of how "brainless" DK's were until I actually played one seriously. A good DK will manage his runes better than a bad one. The skill for Frost actually went up in MoP now that every DK spec in pvp is forced to take Blood tap which is the only non RNG rune management talent in the 75 tree. Oh yeah Necrotic Strike now costs a Death Rune. So now Frost DK's have to able to provide burst and Necrotics at the same time to achieve a kill.

    Warriors on the other hand just have to burst and use Shockwave/gag order (pummel/heroic throw) to kill targets. There's no real management in that and most of that combination is resource free outside of Slam/Heroic Strike. Sure you have to use hamstring and piercing howl but lets be honest, if you're sitting in battle stance you're swimming in rage. Its not even as if it was similar to before when you had no rage = you did no damage. You can still use reflects, shockwave, mortal strike, colossus smash, overpower without rage. How does that take skill? Rogues have to use combat points and energy to use kidney shot where as shockwave is completely free for Warriors. That takes skill?

    2. I have a total of 25 binds on my Frost DK. I've already said that the amount of buttons =/ skill. They actually took keybinds away from Warriors. I have much more slots now on my Warrior than in Cataclysm or wotlk.

    3. What I meant by "not worrying about health bars" was the fact that Warriors have no control over their health bar. None. Unless of course you spec into enraged regeneration/impending victory. That doesn't take any measure of skill, at least DK's have to manage cooldowns such as Death Pact/Lichborne to survive. Did I forget to mention that Lichborne drains the DK's runic power which drains the offensive pressure the DK had?

    4. I forgot about hunters. I did the same thing against them in duels. The only problem with the shield swapping to two hander constantly would be GCD issues. I would usually switch to a shield when I knew I would be kited for a long time.

    5. This reminds me of when people in FPS games would tell me to camp when I was using an SMG. There's absolutely no point to playing a melee if you're constantly with your healer or in the back. Melee should be in the front, pushing up the enemy team to apply offensive pressure. If every melee in the game sat with their healer then who the hell is going to attack the healer? A ranged? Then how will you attack the ranged knowing that you will leave the healer? Doesn't even make sense. If you're going to play a melee, you have to play aggressively, your class is designed to play aggressively.
    67 binds pre mop feral 74 in mop and counting, and I'll shed some light on this warrior vs. frost dk debate for your amusement.
    Warriors take more skill than frost death knights in every shape and form, that's because frost is a faceroll specc, quite literally every dk I've ever played with that knew what he was doing(talking R1/gladiator range here, not some 2.2-2.4k s9 frost dk's) said that it's the most faceroll thing since s5 ret. Then again Warriors aren't really a field of expertise for me but the difference between a good and a bad warrior is easily noticable, not so much when it comes to frost dk's.

    Now if you want to talk about binds in any shape or form, number of binds= skill cap and learning curve, the fact that you play with 1/3 of the binds I have on a feral druid(which is considered a faceroll melee by many) is a testament to the fact that frost dk's are easier to learn and easier to play.
    Then again in RBG's ANY melee will be cannon fodder, that's because RBG's are Ranged battles since s11(if I'm still up to date with MoP RBG's which I couldn't care less about) Wrecking ball achievement? That's something to be proud of? With Execute AND a pocket healer? Jesus... and I thought people who were bragging about Arena Master were bad =(
    afflocks that cry about balance in pvp make me sad.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    1. I don't understand ... your class is designed to play aggressively.
    Dude, well done, at least you in at Wall of text.


    1- Never said ALL Dks were brainless, if I did, I didn't mean it. But face it, most of DKs are spamming HB, it's true. But I know, good DKs aren't. It's not my point. And I don't wanna prove warriors are harder to play than others, it's easier now, but not that much, and your neighbors grass is always greener, her wife is always prettier and so on. I don't want to discuss that, you find out warriors easy, go for it, I don't wanna change your mind.

    2- All my post was to disagree with the OP, which says Ranged > Mellee. Well it depends, when comes to Player vs Pillar, mellees are better. Close quarters, mellees are better, open field, rangeds are better. Everything depends.

    3 - I'm saying people just need to learn how to position themselves in a battle. The rogue must kill that healer alone in the back, or the caster far away from the group which got the time to dring in the corner. DKs have to grip one of them in the middle of your group, not the opposite, I see so many times Dks charging as if they were warriors, pathetic. The warrior have to protect the healer, peel other mellees or charge IF THEY HAVE THE BACKUP. I mean, "comon dude, watch my back". Then all of a sudden is you against 3 - 4 opponents. What do you expect, to get out alive? Roll a Paladin, at least for a few seconds ur unkillable.

    4 - All I can say is: "Mellee life is harder, but fun if you know how to play, if your not fiding it fun anymore, go ranged."

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-20 at 04:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdragon View Post
    67 binds pre mop feral 74 in mop and counting, and I'll shed some light on this warrior vs. frost dk debate for your amusement.
    Warriors take more skill than frost death knights in every shape and form, that's because frost is a faceroll specc, quite literally every dk I've ever played with that knew what he was doing(talking R1/gladiator range here, not some 2.2-2.4k s9 frost dk's) said that it's the most faceroll thing since s5 ret. Then again Warriors aren't really a field of expertise for me but the difference between a good and a bad warrior is easily noticable, not so much when it comes to frost dk's.

    Now if you want to talk about binds in any shape or form, number of binds= skill cap and learning curve, the fact that you play with 1/3 of the binds I have on a feral druid(which is considered a faceroll melee by many) is a testament to the fact that frost dk's are easier to learn and easier to play.
    Then again in RBG's ANY melee will be cannon fodder, that's because RBG's are Ranged battles since s11(if I'm still up to date with MoP RBG's which I couldn't care less about) Wrecking ball achievement? That's something to be proud of? With Execute AND a pocket healer? Jesus... and I thought people who were bragging about Arena Master were bad =(

    Nothing to be proud of dude, just to prove my point. You can be a melee and still do good and have fun.

  3. #23
    warlocks, mages, hunters, moonkins, priests... all ranged always topping BG scorescreen. Usually they're not dying once bacuse they're usually never attacked.

    No skill in that. Melee classes gets attacked all the time without a even a slightest break, ranged classes can stand from range with their pocket healers not having to worry about anything else then dps.

    Most ranged classes has to be nerfed the way it is now. They're superior to melee in BG's. There's no need for melee's in RBG's the way it is now.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    You are talking like this is your first pre-expansion experience.

    Shit is all jacked up the weeks leading up to and after all expansions.

    Why I am not even bothering playing right now because I know it would just piss me off.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I really do love Warriors who always think Frost is braindead. I'm not saying Frost takes high skill by any means. But it does require much more resource management over Warriors and just because Frost hits less buttons doesn't mean it requires any less skill. I really think DK's get a bad reputation similar to hunters just because many lesser skilled players play them.

    The fact that Warriors don't have to worry about their health bar (Passive heals are fun) and the fact that 70% of their abilities doesn't cost a resource makes them probably one of the most unskilled classes in this game.

    And your last part about the two handed doesn't make sense. Yeah sure if reflect is up, I'll use the macro. But switching to a shield every time you are rooted is stupid. The only thing a shield gives you is armor, which doesn't affect spells. I'm also pretty sure that using a two hander gives you more pvp resilience over sword/shield.

    A well played melee is a nightmare in small battles and 1v1s. But in a BG setting, no matter how good you play, you will be cannon fodder for your team.
    To be honest man Frost takes no skill at all. They should have never given them permanent death runes. Right now frost is all about button mashing with no worries at their resource system whatsoever. Spam HB in RBGs, no problem with resource system makes the spec a bad joke.

    And I am a DK myself I think they need to rework frost to increase its skill cap

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-23 at 04:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdragon View Post
    67 binds pre mop feral 74 in mop and counting, and I'll shed some light on this warrior vs. frost dk debate for your amusement.
    Warriors take more skill than frost death knights in every shape and form, that's because frost is a faceroll specc, quite literally every dk I've ever played with that knew what he was doing(talking R1/gladiator range here, not some 2.2-2.4k s9 frost dk's) said that it's the most faceroll thing since s5 ret. Then again Warriors aren't really a field of expertise for me but the difference between a good and a bad warrior is easily noticable, not so much when it comes to frost dk's.

    Now if you want to talk about binds in any shape or form, number of binds= skill cap and learning curve, the fact that you play with 1/3 of the binds I have on a feral druid(which is considered a faceroll melee by many) is a testament to the fact that frost dk's are easier to learn and easier to play.
    Then again in RBG's ANY melee will be cannon fodder, that's because RBG's are Ranged battles since s11(if I'm still up to date with MoP RBG's which I couldn't care less about) Wrecking ball achievement? That's something to be proud of? With Execute AND a pocket healer? Jesus... and I thought people who were bragging about Arena Master were bad =(
    75 now over 80 binds in MOP as UH DK.

    and like

    55-60 as Frost DK.

    Frost DKs are not fun to play, very easy - 0 skill. And the fact that 90% of the noobs hide behind frost DKs and think they are skilled completely buffles me. I got over 2500 in RBGs as UH DK last season, you can imagine how much shit i had to go through just o get into groups.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart View Post
    To be honest man Frost takes no skill at all. They should have never given them permanent death runes. Right now frost is all about button mashing with no worries at their resource system whatsoever. Spam HB in RBGs, no problem with resource system makes the spec a bad joke.

    And I am a DK myself I think they need to rework frost to increase its skill cap

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-23 at 04:50 PM ----------


    75 now over 80 binds in MOP as UH DK.

    and like

    55-60 as Frost DK.

    Frost DKs are not fun to play, very easy - 0 skill. And the fact that 90% of the noobs hide behind frost DKs and think they are skilled completely buffles me. I got over 2500 in RBGs as UH DK last season, you can imagine how much shit i had to go through just o get into groups.
    If you havn't noticed, i have posted lots of threads and replys on 2h frost 5.0.x. I hate it because it sucks so much now and all we got is Obliterate really. If we use anything else (stuff we always have to use) like chains/HB/NS we can't use Obliterate as much as we need, and since FS sucks as 2h we're bound to Obli.

    Removal og Hugering Cold, Desecration / 1min strangulate, UH precense speed buff etc. is a huge nerd. We're bound to chillbains if we want to do arena or RBG in MoP aswell.

    There's also like nothing new at all for frost Dk's. They removed a lot of stuff and made Obliterate our main rune-skill instead of NS/HB. We're using less abilities now aswell.

    I used to love 2h frost, but now with patch 5.0.x it's a terrible spec with nothing else then damage. We got lots of stuff removed and nearly nothing new added. Almost every other class got lots of new stuff and they didn't get everything removed!

    But enough of that, back to the topic.

    Did 3 BG's today where horde were only healers and ranged classes...

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    Why are there so many ranged classes now? Does everyone reroll because ranged classes suddenly are superior to melee?

    There's in average the double amount of ranged classes then melee on each faction in every BG now.
    I find it interesting how, as a ret, I've changed my play style to learn how to range if the need arises, since we have the ability to do so with harsh words. I only do it mainly against warriors (with BoG), or when i need to "get the heck out of dodge," but I never thought it would be possible for a ret. With AV, Inq and HA, it's quite deadly because the rotation has no down time. That's a first.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    Why are there so many ranged classes now? Does everyone reroll because ranged classes suddenly are superior to melee?

    There's in average the double amount of ranged classes then melee on each faction in every BG now.
    It seems ranged classes will have the upper hand in mop pvp. GC failed big time.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Temporary Poster View Post
    It seems ranged classes will have the upper hand in mop pvp. GC failed big time.
    I am pretty sure blizzard can hotfix anything back to balance (example: warrior nerfbat) but anyhow there is a .1% chance blizzard will ever THINK to nerf ranged. Can't wait to play another game of monkey in the middle, who is in the middle? uhh....

    Anyhow, for those thinking frost dk's suck, think again, go compare it to unholy and look at the simcraft charts(nothing to do with pvp), its obvious frost is better and the only reason unholys are topping the charts (battleground charts) is the fact that they spam pestilence all day, i am going to call dks a "weak" class rather than a hero class, and yes i understand blizzard dumbed down frost dks, well it appears that immature jack off idiots are working behind this game now.

  10. #30
    It's time for Seraphys's Inevitable Truths of the Day!

    1: Frost DK is, and always will be an incredibly faceroll spec. In previous seasons, any DK who actually had a brain tended to play Unholy for the most part. I suspect this will remain the same, unless the freedom of spamming Icy Touch as frost ends up very desirable.

    2: Despite its faceroll factor, Frost DK does not suck. Unholy is just a lot better, but Frost has more bang per buck at lower skill levels.

    3: So long as Blizzard refuses to separate PVE and PVP values for all abilities, Ranged classes will ALWAYS be superior. If Blizzard were to balance Melee vs Ranged without separating values for abilities, then Melee classes would be 100% favored in PVE for the raw amount of damage.

    4: Let's face it, more of the World of Warcraft playerbase participates actively in PVE content as opposed to PVP content. You can't hold it against Blizzard for catering to their majority.

    5: Frost is not bound to taking Chillblains in Mists of Pandaria. If you're concerned about slows, run with another class that has nonstop snares by virtue of their abilities without having to go out of their way. (Feral, Ret)

    6: Hungering Cold is gone, but is redesigned as Remorseless Winter, which is actually infinitely better than Hungering Cold.

    7: DKs are still a Hero Class, that was defined as nothing more than a class that started at an increased level with a full set of gear. DK is still the only Hero Class in the game.

    8: If anything, the Melee classes should have the retarded Burst, not the ranged classes.

  11. #31
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Ah yes, the poor melee who did so terribly last season, not a single melee made it into the top 10 arena teams in the world, right? Of the top 10 arena teams in the world, all of them included at least one melee (7x RMP or RLS), some of them included 2 melee (one TSG, one Vanguards cleave), and one included rogue/hunter (unsure whether your counting hunters as ranged since you didn't include them on your ranged class list, possibly on account of them dealing physical damage - but they are ranged really). So if we tally up the number of casters versus the number of melee, we have 12 melee (yes, mostly rogues) versus 7 casters (all frost mages and affliction locks), and 1 hunter who could go either way.

    The top 100 was to my recollection mostly a reflection of the above, but with some caster cleaves in the mix.

    Looking back on past arena history, the season prior to last had more caster cleaves (probably due to the 10% attack power to melee buff last season) than the last one, but melee were hardly rare. In the first seasons of every given expansion melee always dominate all arena brackets, literally every time without fail - and at the start of cataclysm this was true (remember unkillable ferals with undispellable dots that dealt more than half your health in damage per application?), as it was true about death knights in season 5 (start of WotLK, all 200 of the top 200 2's teams were holy/unholy without exception, and while there was more variation in 3's it was pretty much the unholy dk show, and all dk 3's comps were unholy/melee/healer - dk/lock/healer wasnt a thing yet - probably because locks blew that season). As it was true about warriors and rogues in S1 (remember getting chain mace stunned from 100-0 by both warriors and rogues?).

    Casters are always stronger toward the end of expansions, this is not new - they also tend to be stronger still after pre-expansion patches (2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0) - though I'm not quite sure why that second bit always occurs.

    What you are experiencing however, does not equally apply to level 90 - in fact I'm all but certain TSG is going to be the new free gladiator comp in the first season of MoP (warrior/dk/hpal, or alternately, warrior/dk/mistweaver). Remember that at the start of expansions resilience has to be low enough for it to increase meaningfully over the course of multiple seasons to encourage people to get new gear, so we might start with 50% damage reduction, and by the last season of Mists of Pandaria, arrive at 70% damage reduction going up like 5% each season.

    Melee tend to have much better damage reduction than ranged, which means in the first seasons they stack resilience and are hard to kill while casters are at risk of exploding when they get swapped to, and in the last seasons they have so much resilience they begin dropping survival stuff for pve dps gains (with the changes to pve power, this will happen through weapons like Gurth'alak or possibly pve 2 set bonuses), while casters are still very concerned about dying and tend to keep building up resilience (ie. most casters by the end of mop were in 4k2-5k5 resilience, while most melee were in 2k-3k resilience with pve items). The one notable exception to this is frost mages, who are always overpowered every season, destroy both casters and melee when played well, and don't need resilience because their opponent only gets to do things if they make mistakes.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-09-23 at 11:25 PM.
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  12. #32
    TSG is going to be stupidly faceroll. Vanguard cleave is going to be even worse. But those are retarded tunnel comps. WLD and PHD are still going to be very strong and will have a pretty high skill cap like always. You'll see plenty of the faceroll comps around 2.2k but mostly the higher skill cap comps at higher rated play. It's not our fault that blizzard makes it so that putting 2 melee into your 3's comp drops the skill floor. Then again, just because RMP/RLS/MLS require tons of control doesn't make it less faceroll with how ridiculous the amount of control each of the classes have in those comps is. It's pretty damn easy making matches into 2v3's. And then there's LSD and LSD 2.0.

    When it comes to bgs though ranged have an undeniable and massive advantage over melee that don't bring mandatory buffs (as in only rogues).
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Temporary Poster View Post
    It seems ranged classes will have the upper hand in mop pvp. GC failed big time.
    He didn't fail if that was his goal...

  14. #34
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    TSG is going to be stupidly faceroll. Vanguard cleave is going to be even worse. But those are retarded tunnel comps. WLD and PHD are still going to be very strong and will have a pretty high skill cap like always. You'll see plenty of the faceroll comps around 2.2k but mostly the higher skill cap comps at higher rated play. It's not our fault that blizzard makes it so that putting 2 melee into your 3's comp drops the skill floor. Then again, just because RMP/RLS/MLS require tons of control doesn't make it less faceroll with how ridiculous the amount of control each of the classes have in those comps is. It's pretty damn easy making matches into 2v3's. And then there's LSD and LSD 2.0.

    When it comes to bgs though ranged have an undeniable and massive advantage over melee that don't bring mandatory buffs (as in only rogues).
    TSG has changed a Lot since Cataclysm at 90, it's not the faceroll comp you know. They have a ton of new synergy and mechanics at play, and the addition of near-spammable Repentance to the holy paladin means they have real CC like a real gladiator+ comp now - even calling it TSG is probably no longer valid - WKP or WKM (Mistweaver) perhaps - because naming them after the original TSG team is just odd now. WKP is going to be stronger or at minimum as capable as Vanguard (which went rank 1, so rank 1 competitive).
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    TSG has changed a Lot since Cataclysm at 90, it's not the faceroll comp you know. They have a ton of new synergy and mechanics at play, and the addition of near-spammable Repentance to the holy paladin means they have real CC like a real gladiator+ comp now - even calling it TSG is probably no longer valid - WKP or WKM (Mistweaver) perhaps - because naming them after the original TSG team is just odd now. WKP is going to be stronger or at minimum as capable as Vanguard (which went rank 1, so rank 1 competitive).
    i cant imagine a whole lot of repentances happening with the amount of bleeds and diseases that would be out though.
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  16. #36
    My main issue when it comes to melee vs ranged is how I can be chasing someone who is 1yd away and I'm getting the "Too far away" error. It can be very frustrating.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    TSG has changed a Lot since Cataclysm at 90, it's not the faceroll comp you know. They have a ton of new synergy and mechanics at play, and the addition of near-spammable Repentance to the holy paladin means they have real CC like a real gladiator+ comp now - even calling it TSG is probably no longer valid - WKP or WKM (Mistweaver) perhaps - because naming them after the original TSG team is just odd now. WKP is going to be stronger or at minimum as capable as Vanguard (which went rank 1, so rank 1 competitive).
    That's a good point but despite all the utility that the comp's gotten, when push comes to shove the classes in it have been given more ways to tunnel a target than ever. The tunnel versions are going to predominate between avatar and wings and remorseless winter.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart View Post
    To be honest man Frost takes no skill at all. They should have never given them permanent death runes. Right now frost is all about button mashing with no worries at their resource system whatsoever. Spam HB in RBGs, no problem with resource system makes the spec a bad joke.

    And I am a DK myself I think they need to rework frost to increase its skill cap

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-23 at 04:50 PM ----------


    75 now over 80 binds in MOP as UH DK.

    and like

    55-60 as Frost DK.

    Frost DKs are not fun to play, very easy - 0 skill. And the fact that 90% of the noobs hide behind frost DKs and think they are skilled completely buffles me. I got over 2500 in RBGs as UH DK last season, you can imagine how much shit i had to go through just o get into groups.
    Reason you can say that is because the hardest melee to actually master atm is UH DK, it manages it's pets more than BM hunters and warlocks, yet the latter are considered true pet classes, enough about that, there's a reason I didn't mention UH DK when it comes to faceroll, it's probably because it's the exact opposite.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-25 at 12:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Ah yes, the poor melee who did so terribly last season, not a single melee made it into the top 10 arena teams in the world, right? Of the top 10 arena teams in the world, all of them included at least one melee (7x RMP or RLS), some of them included 2 melee (one TSG, one Vanguards cleave), and one included rogue/hunter (unsure whether your counting hunters as ranged since you didn't include them on your ranged class list, possibly on account of them dealing physical damage - but they are ranged really). So if we tally up the number of casters versus the number of melee, we have 12 melee (yes, mostly rogues) versus 7 casters (all frost mages and affliction locks), and 1 hunter who could go either way.

    The top 100 was to my recollection mostly a reflection of the above, but with some caster cleaves in the mix.

    Looking back on past arena history, the season prior to last had more caster cleaves (probably due to the 10% attack power to melee buff last season) than the last one, but melee were hardly rare. In the first seasons of every given expansion melee always dominate all arena brackets, literally every time without fail - and at the start of cataclysm this was true (remember unkillable ferals with undispellable dots that dealt more than half your health in damage per application?), as it was true about death knights in season 5 (start of WotLK, all 200 of the top 200 2's teams were holy/unholy without exception, and while there was more variation in 3's it was pretty much the unholy dk show, and all dk 3's comps were unholy/melee/healer - dk/lock/healer wasnt a thing yet - probably because locks blew that season). As it was true about warriors and rogues in S1 (remember getting chain mace stunned from 100-0 by both warriors and rogues?).

    Casters are always stronger toward the end of expansions, this is not new - they also tend to be stronger still after pre-expansion patches (2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0) - though I'm not quite sure why that second bit always occurs.

    What you are experiencing however, does not equally apply to level 90 - in fact I'm all but certain TSG is going to be the new free gladiator comp in the first season of MoP (warrior/dk/hpal, or alternately, warrior/dk/mistweaver). Remember that at the start of expansions resilience has to be low enough for it to increase meaningfully over the course of multiple seasons to encourage people to get new gear, so we might start with 50% damage reduction, and by the last season of Mists of Pandaria, arrive at 70% damage reduction going up like 5% each season.

    Melee tend to have much better damage reduction than ranged, which means in the first seasons they stack resilience and are hard to kill while casters are at risk of exploding when they get swapped to, and in the last seasons they have so much resilience they begin dropping survival stuff for pve dps gains (with the changes to pve power, this will happen through weapons like Gurth'alak or possibly pve 2 set bonuses), while casters are still very concerned about dying and tend to keep building up resilience (ie. most casters by the end of mop were in 4k2-5k5 resilience, while most melee were in 2k-3k resilience with pve items). The one notable exception to this is frost mages, who are always overpowered every season, destroy both casters and melee when played well, and don't need resilience because their opponent only gets to do things if they make mistakes.
    Ok mind me asking you, why the hell are you actually inventing cleave names that are already made and set in stone?
    At any rate, no matter how much synergy you force into a comp, how much cc you add to it, at the end of the day it's TSG, but a bit better avatar+ AMS on a target and next AMS they go AMS+Bladestorm, that's it you simply can't peel them, and if they feel the need to CC with all the damage they have they have a 1m warrior fear now, and spammable repentance.
    This isn't a harder version of TSG, it's a more potent version of TSG the reason TSG wasn't top tier in s9(when it was theoretically designed as the best comp) is because the best players didn't allow it, they didn't let TSG's que into their warlock teams so they couldn't get the needed rating, no big secret, much like the people who are qqing about no ques are quing on cheesy bg's like rampage where as soon as an RMP SEE'S a Junglecleave they stop quing going OMG COUNTERCOMP I DUN WANNA LOOOZE, in fact when I qued with any comp that isn't something cheesy like FMP I was quing into 50% counters after the first 45minutes, and I NEVER complained, but I guess I need to educate you that not quing into comps that can beat you, doesn't actually make you good, it makes you a cheesy player, and I know many people got R1 by implying those simple rules, it still doesn't make them R1 capable, because if you're really good, you que when you want and you que for 2 hours minimum, just to give a chance for people to que into you, just so you can show them that you aren't a cheesy player.
    I don't know if you followed s9 on Cyclone, but TSG would've gotten R1 if inflame didn't use a macro to stop mmr drop on losses(and to prevent his PR From suffering) (this is actually a secret) in fact I've seen proof of 4 separate Meleecleaves beating inflame, and at the end he had 1 loss in the team. You might as well call all of the cata R1's cheesy fags, because there ain't a single team (apart from raiku's) That's qued entire season, and actually deserved that R1, two of the worst R1 players showed up in cata, Lewisyo and Drainerx, oh and Mirlol has an honorable mention because he's probably the worst rogue on cyclone, but I won't call him an asshole because while he is a suckup and an ass kisser, he isn't a huge abuser/sniper.. proof is in s10 he namechanged to miirzka while he was running with that mage daanzka, and he was pretending to be his bff and shit, till daanzka stopped in s11, then he went to raiku and hydra, even though he's a horrid player, he still knows how to suck up, he might've even pulled the xandyn and paid the other 2 to play with him, I don't know.
    Last edited by Wolfdragon; 2012-09-25 at 10:08 AM.
    afflocks that cry about balance in pvp make me sad.

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