Hunter sims vs Other classes

**tapout1224** · 2012-09-20, 09:55 AM

With Hunters simming at the bottom of all classes, I hope that I wont have to bench myself.
http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html

**Holtzmann** · 2012-09-20, 10:33 AM

Are we really going to go through this again? Sigh.

This thread won't end well. I just hope people will actually try to look at their actual in-game numbers at level 90. Chances are they will be different from what you're seeing, upwards or downwards. Honestly, it feels like there's a Cult of Simcraft going around sometimes.

**Rocket Surgeon** · 2012-09-20, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Holtzmann

Honestly, it feels like there's a Cult of Simcraft going around sometimes.

You dare question? You shall be purged.

**Holtzmann** · 2012-09-20, 10:43 AM

Oh, damn it! Did I say that out loud?! PLEASE SPARE ME O ALMIGHTY SIM! D:

**Waterisbest** · 2012-09-20, 10:49 AM

Simcraft is all fine and dandy, however dps differs alot in actual raid environments AND from boss to boss. You also have to take into account that MM and to some extent SV are heavily gear dependent. As gear gets better, their dps gets better. Lets not forget tier bonuses as the game proceeds.

**Rocket Surgeon** · 2012-09-20, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Holtzmann

Oh, damn it! Did I say that out loud?! PLEASE SPARE ME O ALMIGHTY SIM! D:

It is far too late to apologize for your blasphemy. Your punishment will come swiftly and severely. There is no escape from our wrath.

**Paulosio** · 2012-09-20, 10:55 AM

If it truly is as bad as it seems on sims then I suspect there will be a buff before long... I'm not worrying (for now).

**Jevlin** · 2012-09-20, 10:58 AM

Someone gotta be on the bottom. Give it one patch and it's someone else turn to be crap, then it circulates over and over until everyone got a chance to be OP. That's the only way to keep everyone happy

**Paulosio** · 2012-09-20, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Jeavline

Someone gotta be on the bottom. Give it one patch and it's someone else turn to be crap, then it circulates over and over until everyone got a chance to be OP. That's the only way to keep everyone happy

I think it's reasonable to expect every class to be within 5-10% of each other. No class should be 15% behind the median and 25-30% of the top 4 or 5 specs (with every spec) which is how it seems to be in that data.

At least the boomkins and shadow priests in that list can expect to excel when they can multi dot. Hunters wont even have that.

**tapout1224** · 2012-09-20, 11:30 AM

Well in a patchwork style fight of which the sim was tested we have the potential to be last as of now. A sim done in the patchwork style puts everyone on the same playing field, with that said a sim is "potential dps" taking out the human factor for errors like clipping shots or hitting the wrong key ect... Yes real time dps is different due to factors of movement mob numbers and fight mechanics, but you can not base your dps off of that because it would be situational dps and couldn't be counted on all the time just when ever the heavens aligned just right you could do good dps.

**Holtzmann** · 2012-09-20, 12:15 PM

Basically, SimCraft is good to help optimize your rotations and to tell you which shots are and are not worth using in which situation. For actual "hey, let's bench that dude!" arguments, actual gameplay data is far, far, faaaaaaaar more important!

Originally Posted by Paulosio

I think it's reasonable to expect every class to be within 5-10% of each other. No class should be 15% behind the median and 25-30% of the top 4 or 5 specs (with every spec) which is how it seems to be in that data.

Keeping in mind, of course, that not all simulation modules are working at the same level of accuracy.

**Hikashuri** · 2012-09-20, 12:33 PM

All sims are off. They aren't even close to actual results, they never have been close and they never will.

Didn't sims also say MM pulled ahead of SV in 4.3? Yeah they totally were accurate with that one aswell.

**Spectral** · 2012-09-20, 12:53 PM

Using Simcraft to make conclusions about raid DPS requires a Rube Goldberg contraption of logic, in which we assume the sims are working correctly for all or the majority of classes, that stationary, single target, constant DPS is equivalent to a raid environment, and that all classes are equivalent in terms of difficulty of maxing DPS. These things are not true.

**tapout1224** · 2012-09-21, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Spectral

Using Simcraft to make conclusions about raid DPS requires a Rube Goldberg contraption of logic, in which we assume the sims are working correctly for all or the majority of classes, that stationary, single target, constant DPS is equivalent to a raid environment, and that all classes are equivalent in terms of difficulty of maxing DPS. These things are not true.

yes there are alot of problems with sims, but with the logic you stated it is ok to penalize a easier to play class with never being able to reach the dps of a harder class to play ok. With this train of thought the "better more skilled players who do not have a problem with hard rotations" get the shaft.

**Tehterokkar** · 2012-09-22, 08:14 PM

First off: Sims are patchwerk, there is no movement or any target switching and they are performed by robots, which means the results are absolutely perfect and nobody will be able to reach same results due to human error and latency.

**Katsuraxde** · 2012-09-23, 07:00 AM

i like how the sims for MM and rest of hunter speccs using certain speccs, arent using glyphs nor are they using rapid fire and readiness, meaning ur lacking half the damage, they should also be using free casted slow traps for 20% crit which increases damage drasticly. Theres also a chance that stampede glyph can increase ur damage output by a few % depending on the pets u got in stable

**Hexy** · 2012-09-23, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Katsuraxde

i like how the sims for MM and rest of hunter speccs using certain speccs, arent using glyphs nor are they using rapid fire and readiness, meaning ur lacking half the damage, they should also be using free casted slow traps for 20% crit which increases damage drasticly. Theres also a chance that stampede glyph can increase ur damage output by a few % depending on the pets u got in stable

Sims are using readiness and rapid fire, you might wanna open your eyes a bit... The only glyph worth mentioning is marked for death as it saves u a few globals during fight. The 20%crit is only on targets affected by your freezing trap, no to be confused with the slowing trap, aka frost trap. Stampede glyph is only a dps increase if you only have like 4 ferocity pets in your arsenal, thus not being able to summon 4 additional ferocity pets to assist your active one.

**stalkerzzzz** · 2012-09-23, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Katsuraxde

i like how the sims for MM and rest of hunter speccs using certain speccs, arent using glyphs nor are they using rapid fire and readiness, meaning ur lacking half the damage, they should also be using free casted slow traps for 20% crit which increases damage drasticly. Theres also a chance that stampede glyph can increase ur damage output by a few % depending on the pets u got in stable

Bosses aren't affected by slowing trap and as the poster above said the glyph is for freezing trap.

**Zeherah** · 2012-09-23, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hexy

Sims are using readiness and rapid fire, you might wanna open your eyes a bit... The only glyph worth mentioning is marked for death as it saves u a few globals during fight.

I should note that the reason I didn't bother implementing glyph support on my site is that you can already specify that hunter's mark is applied, so there's no need to simulate the glyph. Since the simulationcraft default sim applies to a single target fight it wouldn't really be affected by the hunter's mark glyph either. As mentioned by Hexy, the freezing trap glyph wouldn't be usable on most bosses (and at most you'd get a single shot off at the 20% crit even if the target was trappable).

Both simc and my site also default to using ferocity pets for stampede and usually the sims are run with full raid buffs, so there's no need to simulate the stampede glyph either.

**Illana** · 2012-09-23, 09:26 PM

don't worry it's pve, it will be top of blizzard priority list.

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