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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    I must be very blind, because I cant find an answer to the question
    'if there's 3+ targets that can be hit with chainlightning, is it a singletarget dps increase to use CL instead of LB?'

    Im really curious about this, and if Im not being clear with what I mean it's mobs that can be cleaved but dont need to be dpsed (think alot of CM stuff or Protectors). The only mention of chain lightning I can find is in regards to the 1/3rd chance for elemental overload, but is there any chance to be directed to the maths/reasoning regarding the reduction in fulmination procs?
    Read the Rotation - Multi-target - Cleaving section.

    As for Protectors, hypothetically it's a sub 1% dps improvement, but you need to execute it perfectly. In other words, stick to single target and you won't incur the wrath of your fellow raiders for attempting to meter pad.

  2. #242
    Youre misunderstanding me, im not trying to meterpad.

    The cleaving section only says it's not a dps increase, but on how many targets is that? Glyphed or not glyphed CL?

    Let me give you the following scenario, and just for curtesy's sake lets just assume im actually a decent player and -only- interested in the singletarget dps gain:


    -- The first boss in Scarlet Monastery (on challenge mode) has alot of adds. Our strategy is exclusively to hunter aoe the ghosts while everyone focuses the boss 100%. The tank deals with any and all aoe as they dont hit hard enough to kill him and they despawn when the boss dies.

    --Now, with CL glyphed (has to be for the rest of the instance), and because alot of the fallen crusaders are still 'alive' even when you kill them (your aoe still hits them although they're dead and waiting to be ressed) you can guarantee 5 CL hits on every CL cast.

    What kind of gain/loss is a LvB - CL - CL (averaging 3-5 rolling thunder procs each) - ES - LB (because shock is on CD) - CL - CL - ES -LvB rotation compared to a single target one?

    Every second or 3rd 'filler' ends up being LB because with good procs you sometimes get 7 stacks with 1 CL while shock is on CD - so more CL seems wasted. Ofc prioritize keeping Flame up, meaning more LB every 25 seconds.

    Hope you can follow my reasoning, and I really appreciate any feedback!


    PS: Somewhat unrelated, Echo vs Elemental Mastery, at what time interval does the extra burst lose to the sustain dps of echo? For 20 seconds it seems totally clear that EM is better, but lets say a boss lasts for 45-100 seconds, is EM generally better? For now, ignore downtime so assume it will be up for every boss.
    Last edited by Dainwork; 2013-02-03 at 09:02 AM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    Youre misunderstanding me, im not trying to meterpad.

    The cleaving section only says it's not a dps increase, but on how many targets is that? Glyphed or not glyphed CL?

    Let me give you the following scenario, and just for curtesy's sake lets just assume im actually a decent player and -only- interested in the singletarget dps gain:


    -- The first boss in Scarlet Monastery (on challenge mode) has alot of adds. Our strategy is exclusively to hunter aoe the ghosts while everyone focuses the boss 100%. The tank deals with any and all aoe as they dont hit hard enough to kill him and they despawn when the boss dies.

    --Now, with CL glyphed (has to be for the rest of the instance), and because alot of the fallen crusaders are still 'alive' even when you kill them (your aoe still hits them although they're dead and waiting to be ressed) you can guarantee 5 CL hits on every CL cast.

    What kind of gain/loss is a LvB - CL - CL (averaging 3-5 rolling thunder procs each) - ES - LB (because shock is on CD) - CL - CL - ES -LvB rotation compared to a single target one?

    Every second or 3rd 'filler' ends up being LB because with good procs you sometimes get 7 stacks with 1 CL while shock is on CD - so more CL seems wasted. Ofc prioritize keeping Flame up, meaning more LB every 25 seconds.

    Hope you can follow my reasoning, and I really appreciate any feedback!


    PS: Somewhat unrelated, Echo vs Elemental Mastery, at what time interval does the extra burst lose to the sustain dps of echo? For 20 seconds it seems totally clear that EM is better, but lets say a boss lasts for 45-100 seconds, is EM generally better? For now, ignore downtime so assume it will be up for every boss.
    You're missing the point. Is it a cleave situation where you want extra damage on the adds, or are you focused on boss DPS? If one, cleave, if the other, single target. 5 targets may make it slightly better on the fulmination charge front, but you're sacrificing 10% of your CL damage on the boss from the glyph.

    Re: EM vs Echo, look at the damage gain of EM over no talent, adjust it proportional to the cooldown until it matches Echo, and you have your answer.

  4. #244
    So there's never a point where CL will net more damage on the boss, i.e. there's never a point where (LB-1.5X(0.9CL)) < extra fulmination casts?


    Not sure what point I missed, but no, it's not a cleave situation as the damage on CL on any target but the boss is utterly inconsequential.

    If I read you correctly, there will never be a boss-damage increase by CL, thanks. Was considering trying to sim it, but really not sure how to find what I was looking for. Might just do a rough estimate by ballparking how many extra Earth Shocks and looking at their average damage, see if my average (LB-1.5X(0.9CL)) is worth that.

    Anyhoos, thank you for your replies. Sorry if Ive totally missed your point.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    So there's never a point where CL will net more damage on the boss, i.e. there's never a point where (LB-1.5X(0.9CL)) < extra fulmination casts?


    Not sure what point I missed, but no, it's not a cleave situation as the damage on CL on any target but the boss is utterly inconsequential.

    If I read you correctly, there will never be a boss-damage increase by CL, thanks. Was considering trying to sim it, but really not sure how to find what I was looking for. Might just do a rough estimate by ballparking how many extra Earth Shocks and looking at their average damage, see if my average (LB-1.5X(0.9CL)) is worth that.

    Anyhoos, thank you for your replies. Sorry if Ive totally missed your point.
    as binkenstein said, it's a hypothetical single target increase of 1% if executed perfectly. however, A) CL hits for less than LB on the boss target; B) CL has 1/3 the chance to overload or echo and C) you'll run into shock cooldown issues.

  6. #246
    What Im doing on windlord in the burst phase (which is exactly the same point = max dps single target) AFTER ascendance is just:

    Fulmination right after the last ascendance LvB (still got 7 stacks from CL spam before), EB, one CL to get full stacks again, LB (LvB if LS proc ofc), fulmination again (if FS is still up, if it's less than 6 sec then FS, but take into consideration how long the burst phase will still last, if its less than 5 sec, then just fulminate again --> no use reapplying FS since you will continue CL spam soon ).
    So basically single target rota, but just replace the first LB with CL so you can be sure to use your every shock cooldown with full stacks always.

  7. #247
    If you really want to maximize single target dps on windlord you should pick Primal Elementalist and glyph of FET, this way you can pop both FET and Ascendance on the 1st and 3rd recklessness. When Ascendance is over, use LvB whenever possible and just keep spamming CL and use ES on CD.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    If you really want to maximize single target dps on windlord you should pick Primal Elementalist and glyph of FET, this way you can pop both FET and Ascendance on the 1st and 3rd recklessness. When Ascendance is over, use LvB whenever possible and just keep spamming CL and use ES on CD.
    If you are spamming Chain Lightning (glyphed) during Recklessness while already at max stacks, you are losing dps on single target. The option where you only cast one Chain Lightning right after Fulmination is better.
    Shaman - Hunter - Monk - Druid - Warlock - DK - another Shaman - one more Shaman

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Faeglendir View Post
    If you are spamming Chain Lightning (glyphed) during Recklessness while already at max stacks, you are losing dps on single target. The option where you only cast one Chain Lightning right after Fulmination is better.
    We're talking 1 CL versus 1 LB every 5 seconds, I'm sure the difference is so small that it doesn't matter especially when considering how tedious it is to do so perfectly.
    The real advice is to pick PE over EB.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Coming Soon!
    When? Waiting...

  11. #251

  12. #252
    Guild asked me to reroll ele shaman since we need a ranged DPS + spell haste (and have 2 druids), thanks for the info, it's really helpful.

  13. #253
    Out of curiosity, are you/binkenstein going to be updating this guide for 5.2?

  14. #254
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKim View Post
    Out of curiosity, are you/binkenstein going to be updating this guide for 5.2?
    It's a collective guide, but we haven't discussed 5.2 specifically. I'll be making sure the information is up to date, at least; most of the rotation advice and such won't be changing much at all.

  15. #255
    Yeah, but won't talent choices / stat weights going to be changed?

  16. #256
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKim View Post
    Yeah, but won't talent choices / stat weights going to be changed?
    Yes, but like I said, I'll be updating as needed.

  17. #257
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes, but like I said, I'll be updating as needed.
    Looking forward to seeing the 5.2 BiS listing go up. Quite a bit to choose from this time around in certain areas this Tier, should be interesting to see how it pans out.
    Thanks for the information!

  18. #258
    In next tier the BiS list won't be a good go for gear, since there is so much weapons/offset pieces/rings/necks that item that is bis might not be best with your current gear. If you get too much haste, mastery and crit will go over it. So some of the haste/mastery stuff that would be bis might be worse for you than some crit/mastery stuff. I haven't looked at the items so this is all hypothetical.

    And of course the bis items are good to have, gotta catch them all!

  19. #259
    Hey there,
    Any thoughts on the Static-Caster's Medallion ? I belive its a pretty nice one (especially as a Primal Elementalist with the FE glyph) , but still wondering if its worthwhile to upgrade just before the new patch.
    Last edited by Dark_Spirit; 2013-03-06 at 03:36 PM.

  20. #260
    I decided to pick a Shaman up, and after reading through this I need to ask one question: is the OP wrong/ unupdated on the point that Lava Burst has 100% crit chance without Flame Shock on the target? I only ask because before playing this Shaman for the past few days, its been the only class that I know completely nothing about.

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