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  1. #281
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zugrim View Post
    Just a few clarification-questions.

    If i'm reading this correctly, it's viable to remove Elemental blast, and go with Primal Elementalist instead? The only difference then would be that you'd remove elemental blast from the rotation?

    And if you haven't specced Unleash Fury, you shoulden't use Unleash Elements at all?
    Seems like EB and PE are on par right now, you can remove elemental blast if you like, personally I enjoy it in my rotation but am thinking about taking it out. Primal elementalist is clearly better for movement fights, but neither are hands down better. Earthquake is now only more viable on 6 or more targets, it really just needs to come off the cast bar imo.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-03-21 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #282
    Elemental Blast and Primal Elementalist are almost equivalent so you can take either and be fine DPS wise.

    You shouldn't use Unleash Elements yes.

  3. #283
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zugrim View Post
    Just a few clarification-questions.

    If i'm reading this correctly, it's viable to remove Elemental blast, and go with Primal Elementalist instead? The only difference then would be that you'd remove elemental blast from the rotation?
    Right. It also determines which T4 talent you'd take; EB is better with EotE (since EB itself can Echo), while AS pulls ahead for PE (the 10% melee haste applies to Elementals). Both are within a couple dozen DPS, in the sims, so it's personal choice, really.

    And if you haven't specced Unleash Fury, you shoulden't use Unleash Elements at all?
    Right. The value per GCD is still below that of an LB, when you factor in Overloads and Rolling Thunder procs and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaga View Post
    Does this include lava surge procs?
    I've always felt (no math, personal exp) having up to 3 flame shocks active is manageable on three targets, and usually resluts in a ton of procs which helps focus a single target down, especially when cleaving isn't possible.
    Yes, it includes lava surge procs. It's not worth multidotting; you do get extra procs, but each subsequent Flame Shock is significantly less valuable than the first in this respect; any proc that occurs in the window between another proc and the cast that consumes it, is wasted. You DO get more procs, but each proc is an additional GCD spent casting it; it's not "free". The total gain from the additional procs isn't as significant as people think, and in the end, the value of the FS cast is less than if you'd just cast an LB instead.

    It's not really bad; you're not going to lose DPS, or not much, anyway. But you're just as well off burning a single target.

  4. #284
    Endus,

    Can you please elaborate on the Unleashed Fury talent and why is it still not worth taking for Elem PvE?

    I am kinda confused as to why Blizz did not make it viable enough in 5.2....

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes, it includes lava surge procs. It's not worth multidotting; you do get extra procs, but each subsequent Flame Shock is significantly less valuable than the first in this respect; any proc that occurs in the window between another proc and the cast that consumes it, is wasted. You DO get more procs, but each proc is an additional GCD spent casting it; it's not "free". The total gain from the additional procs isn't as significant as people think, and in the end, the value of the FS cast is less than if you'd just cast an LB instead.

    It's not really bad; you're not going to lose DPS, or not much, anyway. But you're just as well off burning a single target.
    just to get it right. this only applies when the multiple targets are in cleaving (chainlightning) range to each other, right?

    in fights like megaera or horridon's final phase, having a second flame shock ticking for more lava surges should be a DPS gain.


    also PE + AS? shouldn't PE + EM be the better couple on the long run. and by long run i am mostly thinking about T15 4 pieces. pushing ascendence down to 90 seconds and chaining it with EM every single time should do huge numbers and if you pop fire elemental right before it every second time (glyphed FE) it will benefit greatly from the 30% haste.
    the most useless invention in history? A Graveyard wall!
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  6. #286
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Endus,

    Can you please elaborate on the Unleashed Fury talent and why is it still not worth taking for Elem PvE?
    It parses out slightly behind the other two options. It's close enough that you could use it, if you really desperately wanted to; we're only talking about a 1-2% loss. But, 1-2% is 1-2%; it's behind, so we don't recommend it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadamon View Post
    just to get it right. this only applies when the multiple targets are in cleaving (chainlightning) range to each other, right?

    in fights like megaera or horridon's final phase, having a second flame shock ticking for more lava surges should be a DPS gain.
    If there's two targets and they CAN'T be tanked together, multidotting can be a slight gain, but if they can be, they should be. If you could be using CL, multidotting isn't worth it. It's a pretty niche issue, in the end.

    also PE + AS? shouldn't PE + EM be the better couple on the long run. and by long run i am mostly thinking about T15 4 pieces. pushing ascendence down to 90 seconds and chaining it with EM every single time should do huge numbers and if you pop fire elemental right before it every second time (glyphed FE) it will benefit greatly from the 30% haste.
    That's not how it sims out, for a few reasons. A large one of those reasons is that we're already starting to get close to Haste softcaps, and EM can slam us up against them pretty hard.

    Yes, you'd do huge numbers in that Ascendance uptime, but you lose out on the downtime, and it doesn't offset that.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's not how it sims out, for a few reasons. A large one of those reasons is that we're already starting to get close to Haste softcaps, and EM can slam us up against them pretty hard.

    Yes, you'd do huge numbers in that Ascendance uptime, but you lose out on the downtime, and it doesn't offset that.
    ah, well. it is to add with PE + EM the stat priority would change. it would be:

    Int > Hit > Haste to "mini" cap 15.36% + maybe 1 or 2 percent more depending on latency > Mastery > Crit > Haste

    with that bloodlust, EM AND the new legendary meta will push you close above 50% which means a 1 sec. casttime for pretty much every cast except LB.

    i'm doing that on my ele even now without T15 4piece and L-meta and i would say it works.

    i have (had. he's switching over to Enh now) another Ele in my raid group with nearly identical gear and he went with the "other" model (high haste, EB + EotE) and i'm leading up on him most of the time. always a close call i admit but my plan sort of needs the synergy with the 4pieces to shine.
    the most useless invention in history? A Graveyard wall!
    no one on the inside is able to walk out and
    no one on the outside wants to get in willingly

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It parses out slightly behind the other two options. It's close enough that you could use it, if you really desperately wanted to; we're only talking about a 1-2% loss. But, 1-2% is 1-2%; it's behind, so we don't recommend it.
    Can you please tell me how much of a buff would be needed for Unleashed Fury to be equally viable compared to Primal Elementalist and Elemental Blast?
    I know it is a "strange-ish" question but i would like to know (at least aprox.) how much would Blizz have to buff Unleashed Fury for it to be equal to other lvl90 talents?

  9. #289
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    It's close; UF is about a 9-10% increase in DPS, where PE and EB are a 10-12% increase. They buffed it somewhat in 5.2, it just wasn't quite enough, with the changes to AS, to truly become competitive.

  10. #290
    Hey Endus, are you going to put up a Raden/Non-Raden BiS list? I've tried it myself but with simcraft it's acting a bit strange.

  11. #291
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKim View Post
    Hey Endus, are you going to put up a Raden/Non-Raden BiS list? I've tried it myself but with simcraft it's acting a bit strange.
    I'm not a fan of BiS lists, and Binkenstein isn't really either (see his blog post here, for example). They serve a purpose, but people usually end up using them the wrong way, saying "no, I'll pass on that item because it's not BiS". It ends up being a lot of effort on the part of the people making them, for not as much payout. I'm not working on them myself, but one of the other authors might. If they do, I'll update it here, but I wouldn't necessarily expect one.

    We do have a new section on stat priorities for the gearing section, though, which I'll post once I'm done here.

  12. #292
    Keyboard Turner Hangover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadamon View Post
    ah, well. it is to add with PE + EM the stat priority would change. it would be:

    Int > Hit > Haste to "mini" cap 15.36% + maybe 1 or 2 percent more depending on latency > Mastery > Crit > Haste

    with that bloodlust, EM AND the new legendary meta will push you close above 50% which means a 1 sec. casttime for pretty much every cast except LB.

    i'm doing that on my ele even now without T15 4piece and L-meta and i would say it works.

    i have (had. he's switching over to Enh now) another Ele in my raid group with nearly identical gear and he went with the "other" model (high haste, EB + EotE) and i'm leading up on him most of the time. always a close call i admit but my plan sort of needs the synergy with the 4pieces to shine.
    I was looking for the same solution after 5.2 was released so i'm really interested in this specific point: Why we still (as general rule) prioritize haste over others secondary stats when we've received some kind of haste buff (EM / AS) and the meta ?
    Considering all this Haste, changing our priority to Mastery/Crit would be a dps loss ? why ?

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's close; UF is about a 9-10% increase in DPS, where PE and EB are a 10-12% increase. They buffed it somewhat in 5.2, it just wasn't quite enough, with the changes to AS, to truly become competitive.
    Could there be a reason Blizz is keeping UF a bit lower than PE/EB, like perhaps it being easier to use or having less impact on the player's rotation?

    Or do you believe a "hotfix buff" could be on it's way for UF, at least as far as Elemental PvE goes?

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Could there be a reason Blizz is keeping UF a bit lower than PE/EB, like perhaps it being easier to use or having less impact on the player's rotation?

    Or do you believe a "hotfix buff" could be on it's way for UF, at least as far as Elemental PvE goes?

    if anything, UF actually has most drawbacks (bad when CL weaving or AoEing, bad when switching targets often that dont live long enough to get full duration of the debuff) and requires more setup (blowing up fullstack ES and refreshing FlS so you waste as little time as possible "wasting" the debuff for spells not benefiting from it) and its kinda nerf to rare occasions when not using UL glyph, since you loose the filler instant and instead use it higher in priority.

    it has decent utility for pvp tho and flametongue unleash collides with enha, so its kinda hard to buff it without affecting enha, maybe just allowing Fulmi benefiting from it about as much as LvB might do the trick.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    if anything, UF actually has most drawbacks (bad when CL weaving or AoEing, bad when switching targets often that dont live long enough to get full duration of the debuff) and requires more setup (blowing up fullstack ES and refreshing FlS so you waste as little time as possible "wasting" the debuff for spells not benefiting from it) and its kinda nerf to rare occasions when not using UL glyph, since you loose the filler instant and instead use it higher in priority.
    it has decent utility for pvp tho and flametongue unleash collides with enha, so its kinda hard to buff it without affecting enha, maybe just allowing Fulmi benefiting from it about as much as LvB might do the trick.
    Somehow i do not think slightly buffing Enha is a threat to PvP or PvE balance, at least according to raid log websites.
    Either way i kinda dislike PE and i don't like EB cause of it's randomness so i am stuck with UE

  16. #296
    Was talking with another shaman friend in guild and neither of us had this answer so I'll ask here. Fire/earth elementals scale reactively with the caster's buffs and stats, but if they are active when heroism/lust is hit, is their dps somewhat higher than if they're dropped immediately after heroism is triggered? I've never looked on my elementals buff bar to see if there's a heroism icon there or not, if so I imagine the melee swings would increase if nothing else (which would be relevant if you had the PE talent). Or are the elementals always extensions of the caster and never receive a heroism buff directly?

  17. #297
    As well as updating priorities for aoe ( eg would you ever actually use earthquake and thunderstorm now - sure on 12+targets), it would be really awesome to have a new trinket comparison list <3.

    Thanks for your work.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Hairsweater View Post
    Was talking with another shaman friend in guild and neither of us had this answer so I'll ask here. Fire/earth elementals scale reactively with the caster's buffs and stats, but if they are active when heroism/lust is hit, is their dps somewhat higher than if they're dropped immediately after heroism is triggered? I've never looked on my elementals buff bar to see if there's a heroism icon there or not, if so I imagine the melee swings would increase if nothing else (which would be relevant if you had the PE talent). Or are the elementals always extensions of the caster and never receive a heroism buff directly?
    Heroism is included in the caster's haste when elementals inherit stats, and don't gain a buff of their own, however they need to travel to the boss (unless you're in melee) and so may benefit from popping them just before heroism if unglyphed, so they get the full duration usefulness (although if you have PE, maybe before they cast immolate, I'm not sure).

    A trinket comparison would be nice too, i currently was lucky enough to land myself with breath of the hydra and wooshlay's (both 522), and both are very nice trinkets, and while I would pass on cha-ye normal for other casters, it would be handy to know when it comes to choosing heroic trinkets when we get there.

    One question, is since RPPM works off the highest of melee/ranged/spell haste according to blizzard, a) does AS contribute and b) does it mean we get to use the 10% melee haste part for RPPM calculations (since melee/spell haste is otherwise equal, attack speed doesn't count iirc)?

  19. #299
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairsweater View Post
    Was talking with another shaman friend in guild and neither of us had this answer so I'll ask here. Fire/earth elementals scale reactively with the caster's buffs and stats, but if they are active when heroism/lust is hit, is their dps somewhat higher than if they're dropped immediately after heroism is triggered? I've never looked on my elementals buff bar to see if there's a heroism icon there or not, if so I imagine the melee swings would increase if nothing else (which would be relevant if you had the PE talent). Or are the elementals always extensions of the caster and never receive a heroism buff directly?
    All pets derive their stats directly from their owners, now, to prevent that kind of double-dipping, so no, there's no real difference whether they're active or not before Hero/BL is cast.

  20. #300
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    This tier seems to be a bit more favored towards PE then EB due to the movement on most fights. In regards to the Fire Elemental Glyph, is it always best to make use of lining it up with Ascendance? Or can it be used as a form of sustain damage as well? For example on Ji-Kun, when returning to the platform, popping Fire Elemental then waiting until you intercept the feed for the damage boost to pop Ascendance. That way you have some form of consistent burst damage coming from your Fire Elemental right away followed up by Ascendance maybe 10 seconds later.

    Or overall in this situation would it be better to just hold Fire Elemental until you get the buff then pop them both at the same time?
    Also considering as was stated that the glyph reduces overall uptime by 9 seconds.
    Now couldn't this glyph also be considered situational? Let's say a fight is 7 minutes long, either way you'll get two uses of the Elemental... so that comes down to if you want it to line up with Ascendance or not for the second usage. But if the fight is say 10 minutes long, the Fire Elemental glyph would pull ahead would it not? Since you would get 3 uses with the glyph and two without (as the third usage would be coming up when the fight is ending).

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