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  1. #81
    Hi, I have a question regarding multidotting with Flame Shock. The guide states:

    It is not worth using Flame Shock on additional targets if you're facing 2-3 targets. This is because the damage output of Earth Shock at 7 charges is roughly the same as Flame Shock, and when using Chain Lightning to cleave you'll be generating more Lightning Shield charges than normal.
    But this quote doesn't account for, as far as I can tell, extra Lava Surge procs from additional rolling Flame Shocks. Even with these procs, it's not worth it to put Flame Shock on more than one target in cleave situations?

    In circumstances where you can't cleave but there are multiple targets (they're far, for instance), is it benefitial to keep more than 1 Flame Shock rolling?
    Cairne wanted to thank him again, to offer encouragement, praise for a task so successfully completed. For being able to bear such burdens. But Saurfang was an orc, not a blood elf, and lavish compliments and effusion would not be welcomed or wanted.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    Hi, I have a question regarding multidotting with Flame Shock. The guide states:

    But this quote doesn't account for, as far as I can tell, extra Lava Surge procs from additional rolling Flame Shocks. Even with these procs, it's not worth it to put Flame Shock on more than one target in cleave situations?

    In circumstances where you can't cleave but there are multiple targets (they're far, for instance), is it benefitial to keep more than 1 Flame Shock rolling?
    It does, but it doesn't explicitly state it. Lava Burst deals about the same damage as ES7 and FS, so with the additional shield charges generated by CL you'll end up very tight on shock cooldowns.
    Sentry Totem: The new community news and advice site!

  3. #83
    Nice an answer from the man himself, been doing it wrong all this time , guess it's just counter intuitive that ES deals more damage than a rolling FS + LS procs haha.

    Thanks for all your hard work binkenstein.
    Cairne wanted to thank him again, to offer encouragement, praise for a task so successfully completed. For being able to bear such burdens. But Saurfang was an orc, not a blood elf, and lavish compliments and effusion would not be welcomed or wanted.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    It does, but it doesn't explicitly state it. Lava Burst deals about the same damage as ES7 and FS, so with the additional shield charges generated by CL you'll end up very tight on shock cooldowns.
    But LvB deals more damage than CL on 2-3 targets. If FlS and ES7 are similar damagewise, then it is only logical to want more FlSs to have more Surges, which are replacing CLs (and give guaranteed Clearcasting bonus damage.) LvB damage compared to FlS or ES is pretty much irrelevant in this case, since it doesnt compete with them for the shock CD. Provided the targets actually live long enough and arent 10 second zergs of course.

  5. #85
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    But LvB deals more damage than CL on 2-3 targets. If FlS and ES7 are similar damagewise, then it is only logical to want more FlSs to have more Surges, which are replacing CLs (and give guaranteed Clearcasting bonus damage.) LvB damage compared to FlS or ES is pretty much irrelevant in this case, since it doesnt compete with them for the shock CD. Provided the targets actually live long enough and arent 10 second zergs of course.
    Flame Shock still uses a GCD that could have been spent on CL, trading guaranteed damage for a 30-second low-DPS HoT and a chance at additional damage. You need to mitigate that potential DPS increase with the chance to proc, and recognize that each additional Flame Shock provides less of a benefit via Lava Surge as the ones prior (as some of those procs will occur while you already have the buff, being wasted in the process; higher Lava Surge uptime means more wasted procs).

    It's not quite as simple as you're making it out to be.

  6. #86
    First off, thank you for the amazing guide, and the weak aura's build is.....well it is just lovely.

    Now my question, has there been any thought put into macro's for those who choose primal elementalist? I'm thinking of using the talent for burn phases, but I've never used a character with a controllable pet before. Should I just bind the elemental's abilities into my normal rotation?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    First off, thank you for the amazing guide, and the weak aura's build is.....well it is just lovely.

    Now my question, has there been any thought put into macro's for those who choose primal elementalist? I'm thinking of using the talent for burn phases, but I've never used a character with a controllable pet before. Should I just bind the elemental's abilities into my normal rotation?
    They are just set to auto-cast by default, you don't need to control them. They will even change targets when you do automatically.


  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Flame Shock still uses a GCD that could have been spent on CL, trading guaranteed damage for a 30-second low-DPS HoT and a chance at additional damage. You need to mitigate that potential DPS increase with the chance to proc, and recognize that each additional Flame Shock provides less of a benefit via Lava Surge as the ones prior (as some of those procs will occur while you already have the buff, being wasted in the process; higher Lava Surge uptime means more wasted procs).

    It's not quite as simple as you're making it out to be.
    I still dont get it. Why is opportunity cost compared between spells that dont directly compete with each other? Its not "either FlS or CL" its "either FlS or ES7."

    On one hand, we have Bink telling us they are pretty close in terms of dps - which they are, atleast according to simcraft, DpE of FlS is 155k, DpE of ES+FUlmi is 160k in BiS gear, but on the other hand, DpE of LvB is 208k. I dont know DpE of CL on 2 or 3 targets, but its obviously lower than ES7, otherwise we wouldnt bother with discharging it, which puts it at the very least very close to FlS DpE... if it wasnt for Surges.

    Yes, obviously when the mobs dont live long enough or if I cant manage it properly, ES7 would be preferred way to use shock CD rather than multidotting, but I see no reason to not multidot on bosses like Stone Guards or to some degree Will of the Emperor (provided I actually do it correctly)

  9. #89
    It is a choice of FlS or CL though, because you can't cast both. You can either cast CL then CL OR FlS then CL. Every GCD you spend on shocks is one that could have been used for CL, so you need to way the benefit of using that shock compared to the loss of not casting that Chain Lightning, and every extra Flame Shock has less and less benefit due to wasted Lava Surge procs.


  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    It is a choice of FlS or CL though, because you can't cast both. You can either cast CL then CL OR FlS then CL. Every GCD you spend on shocks is one that could have been used for CL, so you need to way the benefit of using that shock compared to the loss of not casting that Chain Lightning, and every extra Flame Shock has less and less benefit due to wasted Lava Surge procs.
    FIrst of all, this whole time, we are talking about two or three targets, not 5+. How often do you get perfectly synced FlSs on two targets that tick at the same time that you actually waste Surges left and right? 2 perfectly synced FlS ticking at the same time have about 4% chance of wasted Lava Surge. The larger difference between ticks the less chance of wasted charges.

    Second, FlS does at the very least about the same damage per cast as CL on 2 or 3 even if you dont include Surges. (I dont know the actual number, but given the fact that the difference between ES7 and FlS damage is ~3% and we still discharge Fulmi, its obvious CL isnt higher, otherwise we wouldnt be using ES either), while LvB is above all of them.

    I just dont see any mathematical reason not to put 2nd or 3rd FlS on 2-3 target scenario

  11. #91
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I still dont get it. Why is opportunity cost compared between spells that dont directly compete with each other? Its not "either FlS or CL" its "either FlS or ES7."
    Because it is "either FlS or CL". Every second you spend casting, every GCD you use, is competing with other available spells. The shared shock cooldown is an ADDITIONAL competitive factor, it's not even the central one.

    On one hand, we have Bink telling us they are pretty close in terms of dps - which they are, atleast according to simcraft, DpE of FlS is 155k, DpE of ES+FUlmi is 160k in BiS gear, but on the other hand, DpE of LvB is 208k. I dont know DpE of CL on 2 or 3 targets, but its obviously lower than ES7, otherwise we wouldnt bother with discharging it, which puts it at the very least very close to FlS DpE... if it wasnt for Surges.
    We need to be very specific about the terms we're using here; "DPS" is damage per second; Flame Shock has terrible DPS. "DPE/DPET/DPCT" are Damage per Execution/Casting (Time). These are where you factor in the contribution per cast, usually normalized for the cast time. The two aren't the same; Flame Shock has relatively high DPET but low DPS, for instance.

    Each time you use the GCD for Flame Shock rather than CL, you're generating fewer LS charges to be used on Fulmination. You're also delaying that next Fulmination by another 5 seconds minimum. CL generates charges pretty darn quickly, so what you're doing is reducing the number of ES7 casts you'll get to execute. That's where the damage loss is. The additional Flame Shock isn't increasing your damage by the same amount the first Flame Shock is.

    In short, you're saying "if it wasn't for Surges", but forgetting to factor in "if it wasn't for Rolling Thunder/Fulmination" for CL.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 05:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    FIrst of all, this whole time, we are talking about two or three targets, not 5+. How often do you get perfectly synced FlSs on two targets that tick at the same time that you actually waste Surges left and right? 2 perfectly synced FlS ticking at the same time have about 4% chance of wasted Lava Surge.
    No, that underestimates the issue. It's not about whether the Flame Shocks are 'synced', it's about GCDs. If you get two procs within the same GCD, one is wasted, because you can't use the first while under that GCD. My current Haste levels have me at a 1.31s GCD outside of Haste procs. That's a fairly large window, given that we're resetting something that's "only" an 8s cooldown as it is. In AoE situations, it's actually slightly less favorable than that, because you're typically spamming CL, and CL's cast time is a base 2 seconds, longer than a GCD. Two procs inside that window means one is wasted. With one Flame Shock, that can't happen due to the tick time. With two, it will.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    We need to be very specific about the terms we're using here; "DPS" is damage per second; Flame Shock has terrible DPS. "DPE/DPET/DPCT" are Damage per Execution/Casting (Time). These are where you factor in the contribution per cast, usually normalized for the cast time. The two aren't the same; Flame Shock has relatively high DPET but low DPS, for instance.
    which is why I used DPE and not DPS, bar the first typo, for comparison. I even mentioned several times that obviously if the targets are not gonna live long enough, the discussion is pointless and ES7 wins

    Each time you use the GCD for Flame Shock rather than CL, you're generating fewer LS charges to be used on Fulmination. You're also delaying that next Fulmination by another 5 seconds minimum. CL generates charges pretty darn quickly, so what you're doing is reducing the number of ES7 casts you'll get to execute. That's where the damage loss is. The additional Flame Shock isn't increasing your damage by the same amount the first Flame Shock is.
    but the Flame Shock does similar damage as ES7 anyway, it might have slightly lower overall value than the previous one thanks to some overlap of surges, but its still higher than value of ES7 or value of CL when at max charges already.
    In short, you're saying "if it wasn't for Surges", but forgetting to factor in "if it wasn't for Rolling Thunder/Fulmination" for CL.[COLOR="red"]
    And you didnt include the fact, that we generate LS charges way too quickly even now, pre-setbonus and quite alot of CLs dont have the additional bonus of generating valuable charges

    No, that underestimates the issue. It's not about whether the Flame Shocks are 'synced', it's about GCDs. If you get two procs within the same GCD, one is wasted, because you can't use the first while under that GCD. My current Haste levels have me at a 1.31s GCD outside of Haste procs. That's a fairly large window, given that we're resetting something that's "only" an 8s cooldown as it is. In AoE situations, it's actually slightly less favorable than that, because you're typically spamming CL, and CL's cast time is a base 2 seconds, longer than a GCD. Two procs inside that window means one is wasted. With one Flame Shock, that can't happen due to the tick time. With two, it will.
    CL is 1.5s cast for ele and always was since vanilla...? And FlS ticks are two times slower than GCD.

    And you are overestimating the issue, too. You can get two back to back procs from two different FlSs and use them both, it all depends when you finished your last cast and how fast can you react to your procs. What you are describing is pretty much the 4% chance of overlap I mentioned, since in small aoe/cleave situations, all our spells are GCD-long casts or instants

  13. #93
    I went on live, using my own stats for easy numbers - unbuffed apart from self buffs, no clearcasting, no flametounge weapon (just because I forgot haha, is flat spell damage so makes no difference)

    DISCLAIMER: Lots of rounding and poor napkin math ahead!

    SP: 20671
    Haste: 15.76%
    Crit: 9.8%
    Mastery: 33.39%

    Lava Burst: 68,700 + 51.5k Mastery Proc (33.39% chance) = On average 85,900

    Chain Lightning on 1st target: 21,000 Hit (90.2% Chance), 52,000 Crit (9.8% chance) = On Average 24,000
    Chain Lightning on 2nd target: 24,000*0.8 (90.2% Chance), = ~19,200
    CL Damage on Two Targets - No Mastery Proc: ~43.3k
    CL Damage on Two Targets - Mastery proc on First Target: ((24,000 * 1.75) + (24,000 * 1.75 * 0.8)) * 0.3339 = ~25,300
    CL Damage on Two Targets - Mastery proc on Second Target: (26,100 + (20,880 * 1.75) + (20,880 * 1.75 * 0.8)) * 0.3339 * 0.3339 = ~7,700
    Average CL Damage - 76,300

    Earth Shock 7 Stacks
    Fulmination - 54.5k Hit (90.2% Chance), 136.25k Crit (9.8% chance) = On Average 62500
    Earth Shock - 15k Hit (90.2% Chance), 37.5k Crit (9.8% chance) = On Average 17200
    Total Earth Shock 7 Stacks Damage - On Average ~79,700

    Flame Shock -
    Application - 7,700 Hit (90.2% Chance), 19250 Crit (9.8% Chance) = On Average 9,600
    Tick - 4,750 Hit (90.2% Chance), 11,900 Crit (9.8% Chance) = On Average 5,900
    Number of Ticks - 12
    Total Flame Shock Damage - On Average 80,400

    Elemental Blast: 48,200 Hit (90.2% Chance), 120,500 Crit (9.8% Chance) = On Average 55,286 + The Stats

    Cast Time doesn't affect any of this because they are all the same as a GCD. From these numbers it seems priority on two targets would be Flame Shock on First Target > Lava Burst > Flame Shock on second target > Earth Shock > Elemental Blast > Chain Lightning. Please do fix my horrible 5 minute napkin math if its wrong though.


  14. #94
    Heyas, like I've told Gist on the wow forums absolutely love the guide and appreciate the work you have all done on it.

    I did want to bring up one thing about the Ascendance macro. Since all characters lost the relic/ranged slot the correct slot numbers should be 13(top) and 14(bottom) for the trinket slots.

    Thanks again for the guide.

  15. #95
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post

    Lava Burst: 68,700 + 51.5k Mastery Proc (33.39% chance) = On average 85,900

    Elemental Blast: 48,200 Hit (90.2% Chance), 120,500 Crit (9.8% Chance) = On Average 55,286 + The Stats
    why didn't you factor in elemental blast overloads?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-13 at 07:33 PM ----------

    Something that is confusing me is the Elemental blast vs Earth Shock priority.

    According to the guide Elemental blast comes before Eath Shock (with 6/7 stacks) in the priority list.
    I've seen several comments both here and over at totemspot where posters state the opposite.

    Binkenstein his answer to a question in this thread:

    Q: "Shouldn't EB be on a higher place in the priority list than ES? I might be wrong of course."
    A: "No, it shouldn't."

    Quote from the guide:
    Priority Lists
    Single Target, Stationary

    Cast Lava Burst IF it is off cooldown AND Flame Shock is on the target
    IF you have the L90 talent Elemental Blast, cast Elemental Blast
    Cast Earth Shock IF Lightning Shield is at 6-7 charges.


    Which sounds to me that the guide prioritizes Blast over Earth Shock. Or am I missing something really obvious here?

  16. #96
    Probably best to sim it, my sim says EB > ES7

  17. #97
    You would have to figure that if EB gives the crit buff it's better to use before ES, but only the crit buff.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  18. #98
    After reading all the above comments regarding ES vs FS, I'm still a little confused; please can somebody clarify if it's actually worth using CL on 2-3 targets (like for example, Stone Guards) or is best to sticking to single targeting one add (and perhaps putting FS on another for additional lava surge procs)?

    Thanks.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Which sounds to me that the guide prioritizes Blast over Earth Shock. Or am I missing something really obvious here?
    Use of Chain Lightning increases the amount of Lightning Shield procs you get, meaning your Shock cooldown is more valuable. In a single target rotation delaying a Shock for a cast doesn't matter, in an AoE situation if you use ES first then it is cooling down whilst you cast EB but your still more than likely to get to max stacks before its ready to be cast again, meaning you get to use it earlier - not the case in single target.

    As for Elemental Blast, an oversight on my part. I still put EB above CL anyway, this just reassures that, doesn't put it above Earth Shock though due to the above reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMusic View Post
    After reading all the above comments regarding ES vs FS, I'm still a little confused; please can somebody clarify if it's actually worth using CL on 2-3 targets (like for example, Stone Guards) or is best to sticking to single targeting one add (and perhaps putting FS on another for additional lava surge procs)?

    Thanks.
    It is worth it to shock on 2-3 targets yes. If the targets are up for more than 30 seconds then its worth it to use Flame Shock too - at least from my napkin math it is, however if even 1 tick goes to waste its not worth it so apart from on Stone Guards your 99% of the time going to want to ignore Flame Shock beyond your primary target for the Lava Burst auto-crit. Earth Shock is 100% worth it on 2 targets though, and Lava Burst is better than all three. Elemental Blast, if you have it, should be used ahead of CL but behind everything else.

    Disclaimer

    Bare in mind, with Flame Shock and Earth Shock, that their own damage is very close, within 1%, and as such it would be much more a toss up of whats worth more, the extra Lava Surge procs VS the wasted CL stacks. I would go so far as to say on two targets do not use Flame Shock on the second target unless you have your shock cooldown up, Lava Burst is about to come off cooldown, so is Elemental Blast and also your already at low stacks (though the last one is unlikely). If at least two of those are true you will use up a large quantity of the next 5 seconds casting things other than Chain Lightning and thus reducing the amount of stacks your going to waste - reducing the benefit of ES so that the extra Lava Surge procs become more useful. This would be to 100% min-max though and would be a lot harder to manage than just 'Ignore Flame Shock and only use ES' or 'Flame Shock > ES'.

    I personally go for 'Ignore Flame Shock and only use ES' because it means there is less to manage and the only fight where this is really an issue is Stone Guard and theres a lot of target changing in that fight. If a target with Flame Shock on it gets put on its own for even 1 tick that Flame Shock was likely a DPS loss over just using Earth Shock. Its because of THIS that I recommend not using Flame Shock on two targets.
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2012-10-13 at 10:18 PM.


  20. #100
    Sorry if it's a stupid question, but what order should I use for our on GCD cooldowns? Say, fire elemental totem, bloodlust, stormlash, if I'm popping them + ascendance at the same time?

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