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  1. #421
    Why is Unleashed Elements only in the rotation if we have a certain talent, it increases fire damage by 30% so seems viable to cast off CD.

  2. #422
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooting View Post
    Why is Unleashed Elements only in the rotation if we have a certain talent, it increases fire damage by 30% so seems viable to cast off CD.
    Because that increase of damage is less than the contribution of a single Lightning Bolt, once you factor in crits and Overloads and Fulmination charges.

  3. #423
    Even if you pair that 30% damage with flame shock?

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardourdan View Post
    Why isn't Earth Shock 6-7 stacks a high priority than Lava Burst? It seems to be doing significantly more damage, regardless of whether it crits or not.

    I'm guessing its due to Elemental Overload and the desire to NOT lose any time on another Lava Surge Proc?
    It's mainly Lava Surge procs munching out when LvB is off CD.

    However while intellect may be a highly favorable stat Im not seeing near anyone use many reds at all, Im actually seeing more raw yellows.

  5. #425
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooting View Post
    Even if you pair that 30% damage with flame shock?
    Yes. Unleash Elements without Unleashed Fury provides less damage for the cast time (in that case, the GCD) than any other spell Elemental Shaman have available, even Lightning Bolt, even if you use it for the most-valuable Fire-based spell. It isn't worth casting unless you have the Unleashed Fury talent, and it's not (currently) worth taking Unleashed Fury over PE or EB.

  6. #426
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michelangelo View Post
    When you have your 10th stack of Wushoolay's you only have time for one cast to be finished. Ideally you're casting LvB here, or you can finish casting an EB before the buff wears off. If not, look to refresh Flame Shock or do a highly charged Fulmination, as those would be better for your dps than a LB filler.
    Thanks, I figured it was going to be a straight forward answer. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to be missing something important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes. Unleash Elements without Unleashed Fury provides less damage for the cast time (in that case, the GCD) than any other spell Elemental Shaman have available, even Lightning Bolt, even if you use it for the most-valuable Fire-based spell. It isn't worth casting unless you have the Unleashed Fury talent, and it's not (currently) worth taking Unleashed Fury over PE or EB.
    Well as we know the Icy-Veins guides were updated by top players. Leeds from Method ended up covering Elemental, and in a section of the guide he covers a timely spot to actually use Unleash Elements. It was something I questioned at first, and still honestly do... but the unique window to use it how he described it is so rare that maybe it's not that HUGE in value to make a note of it. But regardless, here is the little snip from his guide.
    5.1. Using Unleash Elements
    Normally, using Unleash Elements for Flame Shock or Lava Burst does not increase your damage enough that it will make up for the global cooldown you used to cast Unleash Elements.

    However, there is a trick to make both Flame Shock and Lava Burst benefit from the Unleash Flame buff that Unleash Elements gives you. Simply cast Lava Burst immediately followed by Flame Shock, while Unleash Flame is active. Both spells will land on the target at the same time and both spells will benefit from Unleash Flame.

    The only time when you should use this trick is when you want to refresh Flame Shock and Lava Burst happens to be off cooldown. In every other situation, it is not worth delaying your cast of Lava Burst or refreshing Flame Shock early just for using the trick.
    How I read it and my assumption is, the only way this trick will work is if you're hard casting a LvB, because the GCD to follow it up with a FS right after is available. Where as with a Lava Surge proc you would not be able to get them both off at the same point in time. I've personally been doing this whenever the stars align, but it's such a rare occurrence that I can't say how much gain I get out of it.
    Last edited by Skurkitty; 2013-06-19 at 05:09 AM.

  7. #427
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skurkitty View Post
    Well as we know the Icy-Veins guides were updated by top players. Leeds from Method ended up covering Elemental, and in a section of the guide he covers a timely spot to actually use Unleash Elements. It was something I questioned at first, and still honestly do... but the unique window to use it how he described it is so rare that maybe it's not that HUGE in value to make a note of it. But regardless, here is the little snip from his guide.

    How I read it and my assumption is, the only way this trick will work is if you're hard casting a LvB, because the GCD to follow it up with a FS right after is available. Where as with a Lava Surge proc you would not be able to get them both off at the same point in time. I've personally been doing this whenever the stars align, but it's such a rare occurrence that I can't say how much gain I get out of it.
    The reason that works is because the Lava Burst is flagged with UE when it's cast, but the buff isn't consumed until it hits. So if you get a Flame Shock off before it hits, both get the benefit.

    I don't encourage that, because it's basically making use of a bug in the way the buff is applied, and I'm not comfortable advising people to abuse a bug, particularly for an exceptionally minor DPS gain. And, like Bink stated below, if you screw it up and the LvB hits before you cast FS, you don't gain this benefit and you've lost DPS.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Skurkitty View Post
    Well as we know the Icy-Veins guides were updated by top players. Leeds from Method ended up covering Elemental, and in a section of the guide he covers a timely spot to actually use Unleash Elements. It was something I questioned at first, and still honestly do... but the unique window to use it how he described it is so rare that maybe it's not that HUGE in value to make a note of it. But regardless, here is the little snip from his guide.

    How I read it and my assumption is, the only way this trick will work is if you're hard casting a LvB, because the GCD to follow it up with a FS right after is available. Where as with a Lava Surge proc you would not be able to get them both off at the same point in time. I've personally been doing this whenever the stars align, but it's such a rare occurrence that I can't say how much gain I get out of it.
    Technically yes, that is possible. Practically though I don't think it's that worthwhile to try to achieve, especially since when you hit UE you have to take advantage of the gimmick to avoid loosing DPS.
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  9. #429
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    Unleash Flame: dealing 1136 to 1345 (+ 42.9% of SpellPower) Fire damage to target enemy and increasing the damage dealt by the Shaman's next Fire spell by 30%.
    Lightning Bolt: dealing 1187 to 1355 (+ 73.9% of SpellPower) Nature damage. Can be cast while moving.
    causing 1086 (+ 44.9% of SpellPower) Fire damage immediately and 2910 (+ 210% of SpellPower) Fire damage over 30 sec.

    stats considered: 34k spellpower, 23% crit, 250% critical damage (elemental fury, legendary meta), UVLS trinket, no other procs present

    UFlame: 15722-15931 damage (39305-39827 critical)
    Lightning Bolt: 26313-26481damage (65782-66202 critical)
    Flame Shock: 16352 base damage + 74310 tick damage (10 ticks) / 96603 (13 ticks @25%+ Haste) / 7431 per tick
    Flame Shock 100% critical: 40880 + 185775 (10 ticks) / 241507 (13 ticks) / 18577 per tick
    Flame Shock 100% critical (+30%): 53144 + 241507 (10 ticks) / 313.959 (13 ticks) / 24150 per tick
    Flame Shock 23% critical: 21993 + 9994 per tick*
    *(medium of damage = (23*critical damage+77*noncritdamage)/100 ofc, this would be the normal FlS damage)

    during UVLS proc (considering nothing more important has to be cast):
    casting 2x LB (both crit ofc): 132k damage
    casting UFlame + recasting FlS (both crits ofc): 39.6k + 53.1k = 92.7k + 14k higher dot ticks (3 ticks equal out the damage difference ...)

    ~~~
    yep, this is just napkin math and you will rarely have nothing better to cast while UVLS is up ... but this seems to be a senseful use of UFlame to me
    Faraleya, Orc, Shaman, attuned, EU-Blackrock, 13/13 HC, 10 man raiding

  10. #430
    I'm sorry if this is a trivial question or has been already asked ( a bit too many posts to read through ), is there a reason why none of the "optimal" talent combination choices mention Elemental Mastery? Are the other 2 choices, namely Echo of the Elements and Ancestral Swiftness that much better?

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Ismaire View Post
    Unleash Flame: dealing 1136 to 1345 (+ 42.9% of SpellPower) Fire damage to target enemy and increasing the damage dealt by the Shaman's next Fire spell by 30%.
    Lightning Bolt: dealing 1187 to 1355 (+ 73.9% of SpellPower) Nature damage. Can be cast while moving.
    causing 1086 (+ 44.9% of SpellPower) Fire damage immediately and 2910 (+ 210% of SpellPower) Fire damage over 30 sec.

    stats considered: 34k spellpower, 23% crit, 250% critical damage (elemental fury, legendary meta), UVLS trinket, no other procs present

    UFlame: 15722-15931 damage (39305-39827 critical)
    Lightning Bolt: 26313-26481damage (65782-66202 critical)
    Flame Shock: 16352 base damage + 74310 tick damage (10 ticks) / 96603 (13 ticks @25%+ Haste) / 7431 per tick
    Flame Shock 100% critical: 40880 + 185775 (10 ticks) / 241507 (13 ticks) / 18577 per tick
    Flame Shock 100% critical (+30%): 53144 + 241507 (10 ticks) / 313.959 (13 ticks) / 24150 per tick
    Flame Shock 23% critical: 21993 + 9994 per tick*
    *(medium of damage = (23*critical damage+77*noncritdamage)/100 ofc, this would be the normal FlS damage)

    during UVLS proc (considering nothing more important has to be cast):
    casting 2x LB (both crit ofc): 132k damage
    casting UFlame + recasting FlS (both crits ofc): 39.6k + 53.1k = 92.7k + 14k higher dot ticks (3 ticks equal out the damage difference ...)

    ~~~
    yep, this is just napkin math and you will rarely have nothing better to cast while UVLS is up ... but this seems to be a senseful use of UFlame to me
    You forgot to take Overloads into account.
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    I'm sorry if this is a trivial question or has been already asked ( a bit too many posts to read through ), is there a reason why none of the "optimal" talent combination choices mention Elemental Mastery? Are the other 2 choices, namely Echo of the Elements and Ancestral Swiftness that much better?
    Because it's not optimal? There are Very Specific reasons to take EM, but as soon as you start delaying uses the value drops considerably. Using on cooldown or keeping for Ascendance with T15 4pc still gives less damage than Echo.
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  12. #432
    Got Unerring Vision of Lei Shen. Not quite sure what to do when it procs, I currently got Wush LFR version but suppose UVLS is better? Just what do I do when it procs, keep dpsing, apply flame shock?

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahalek View Post
    Got Unerring Vision of Lei Shen. Not quite sure what to do when it procs, I currently got Wush LFR version but suppose UVLS is better? Just what do I do when it procs, keep dpsing, apply flame shock?
    I would definitely say LFR Wushoolay > N UVoLS. The Lei Shen trinket is pretty useless for us.
    Shaman - Hunter - Monk - Druid - Warlock - DK - another Shaman - one more Shaman

  14. #434
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    My guild is going to be swapping over to Horde this week, so I'm faced with the decision of Troll vs Orc. I'm looking into next Tier more so then current as we have it on farm. I know the beast damage was a major part in what made Troll so good for everyone but it's looking like there will be only 1 beast in the form of a Protodrake next tier thus making that specific Troll Racial much less needed.

    I've been doing a lot of simming and all results are coming up mixed between the two. Is the Blood Fury and Berserking racial really just that close to the point where it's personal preference? When I say I'm getting mixed results I mean the sims are swinging a small 600 dps in either direction.

  15. #435
    Any math on the newly buffed 5.4 Unleashed Fury/Flametongue?

    Is the buffed UF in 5.4 now equal to the other 2 lvl90 talents?
    Tinker + Alchemist in a single class:
    Tank spec: robotics, steampunk hammers/chainsaws, grappling hooks and heavy machinery.
    Melee dps spec: doping yourself with chems and tossing vicious acids on the enemies.
    Ranged dps: rockets, lasers, TNT critters and explosives, shrink rays and sapper mines.
    Healing spec: chemical sprays, needles, exploding flasks and other chemical type abilities to heal.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Skurkitty View Post
    My guild is going to be swapping over to Horde this week, so I'm faced with the decision of Troll vs Orc. I'm looking into next Tier more so then current as we have it on farm. I know the beast damage was a major part in what made Troll so good for everyone but it's looking like there will be only 1 beast in the form of a Protodrake next tier thus making that specific Troll Racial much less needed.

    I've been doing a lot of simming and all results are coming up mixed between the two. Is the Blood Fury and Berserking racial really just that close to the point where it's personal preference? When I say I'm getting mixed results I mean the sims are swinging a small 600 dps in either direction.
    Berserking will always line up with Ascendance, the current problem is that with our 4p the cooldown of Ascendance goes down to ~2 minutes which is the blood fury CD IIRC?

    I do believe trolls should be better and have a higher/more consistent burst, the difference is very very marginal though.

  17. #437
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    Berserking will always line up with Ascendance, the current problem is that with our 4p the cooldown of Ascendance goes down to ~2 minutes which is the blood fury CD IIRC?

    I do believe trolls should be better and have a higher/more consistent burst, the difference is very very marginal though.
    I just find it interesting that Berserking is considered better (I went Troll). The Haste gem setup seems to be king choice now with most Elementals that I look at running 42% to 46% Haste, Troll or not. I will note that ToT is my first tier as a caster DPS so I could be overlooking something completely. But I'm currently at 43.12% Haste, the legendary meta procs so much you can almost consider it baseline. With the Meta + Berserking I go over 100% Haste with a 0.896 LB and LvB. Last I checked the GCD can only go down to 1 second, so you can easily push past GCD cap on LB and LvB if you were to line Berserker up with Ascendance and your Meta just happened to proc (it probably would, hands down).

    Even without Berserking if you factor in Bloodlust + Meta gem proc you're still going to drop down to around 0.8 cast time.
    Now after having gone Troll, when I sim as an Orc with Blood Fury factored in and all there is roughly a 600-700 DPS gain as an Orc. I assume this is related to gaining greater benefit out of a raw spellpower buff vs a capped LB/LvB.

    Maybe I'm completely missing something with Haste, but it just seems really strange that everyone is willing to invest this much into Haste when if you factor in these key buffs you're hitting some form of GCD cap on cast times if the meta goes off, which feels like it would nullify it in some way. The obvious answer seems to be "Well don't pop them all at the same time." But the gem proc is so frequent it almost feels like that isn't possible in all situations.
    Last edited by Skurkitty; 2013-07-05 at 12:33 PM. Reason: Snips

  18. #438
    How low is your lava burst cast speed with only the meta gem proc? Should be around 1.1 seconds, correct? So even if you go under the GCD cap you still get more casts off, you don't get the full benefit of haste because like you said, 0.1 seconds gets wasted but it does something atleast.

    The reason i myself like trolls more are mostly because it guarantees that you'll always have a speed increase in your ascendance. Yes, the meta gem can proc, but when it doesn't you loose ~1-2 casts inside the ascendance. Also the timing on Ascendance and Berserking will always fit.

    In the last tier like this we might start getting into problems like you've said yourself, specially with these meta gems. But there are also positives with being trolls this late in the expansion. Leeds for example is gemming mostly Int/mastery and keeping his haste at ~34% (currently where mine is aswell.) This is to increase his burst damage during ascendance and utility when it comes to AoE and such. Sure, he's probably aiming for high ranks with this spec but when pushing for progression and burst is the major concern we'll most likely shine more with an Mastery flavored approach.

    In the current tier with our 4p i tend to use berserking + meta gem (and bloodlust if up) to refresh my flame shock when it's about to wear out, by doing this I'm getting tons of lava surge procs, I'm not 100% sure this is the most ideal way to use it currently though.

    The final dps differences are so small you'll never see the difference however, so i wouldn't stress out too much.

  19. #439
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    How low is your lava burst cast speed with only the meta gem proc? Should be around 1.1 seconds, correct? So even if you go under the GCD cap you still get more casts off, you don't get the full benefit of haste because like you said, 0.1 seconds gets wasted but it does something atleast.

    The reason i myself like trolls more are mostly because it guarantees that you'll always have a speed increase in your ascendance. Yes, the meta gem can proc, but when it doesn't you loose ~1-2 casts inside the ascendance. Also the timing on Ascendance and Berserking will always fit.

    In the last tier like this we might start getting into problems like you've said yourself, specially with these meta gems. But there are also positives with being trolls this late in the expansion. Leeds for example is gemming mostly Int/mastery and keeping his haste at ~34% (currently where mine is aswell.) This is to increase his burst damage during ascendance and utility when it comes to AoE and such. Sure, he's probably aiming for high ranks with this spec but when pushing for progression and burst is the major concern we'll most likely shine more with an Mastery flavored approach.

    In the current tier with our 4p i tend to use berserking + meta gem (and bloodlust if up) to refresh my flame shock when it's about to wear out, by doing this I'm getting tons of lava surge procs, I'm not 100% sure this is the most ideal way to use it currently though.

    The final dps differences are so small you'll never see the difference however, so i wouldn't stress out too much.
    LvB goes down to 1.08 with just Meta, so yeah pretty close to that mark. I was actually fiddling around with Leed's approach last night because it made the most sense in my head... which was exactly why I was questioning the whole king haste thing. Simming myself with the changes, I lost around 3k DPS with a 34% haste 60%+ mastery build. Granted, I haven't had the chance to raid test it yet so the Sim could be a bit off depending on the situation.
    With the 34% haste build though I go down to 0.986 cast times on a double proc (1.14 cast time on single) so it isn't as bad, with an extra 10%+ mastery or so on top of it all.

    Also while I was posting this I decided to Sim both Leeds and Brightleaf. Since that's basically a Troll Mastery build vs a Troll Haste build at the same ilvl. Brightleaf was around 4k (so close to my personal 3k lose Sims) ahead of Leeds with his haste setup. But I suppose when you're around the 240k base mark a 4k difference isn't something to spaz out over, and Leeds parses say what he's doing is working. Brightleaf doesn't have any recent since BL doesn't show logs it looks like.

    I'll give Leeds approach a try and see how things go in raid.
    Thanks for the insight, Telefonorm.
    Last edited by Skurkitty; 2013-07-06 at 03:15 AM. Reason: Typo

  20. #440
    mastery or haste? in current content, its a wash, really, simming patchwerk is cool and all, but mastery is far more effective once you start cleaving, meta proc brings CL way under GCD anyway, so you gain nothing from it past certain point. And there is decent ammount of cleaving, minimum of 6 bosses have it, 4 more depending on tactics or given role, so really, one cant go wrong with either setup and its just a matter of prefference and/or boss/phase you are progressing on.

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